C-Systems 12 VDC Pump review...

[astrasparc]

Deleted by me

[BillA]

time for some candid discussion

Dan suggested in another thread not to worry that only the motor had a 50,000 hr MTBF

this is as misleading as it can get (you buying motors or pumps ?)

the C-Systems pump has a mechanical seal on a shaft, press fit into a recess

this seal has all kinds of requirements to perform, and its general ability to last 50,000 hrs in water service should not be a burden to a mfgr wishing to sell into this market

it will be curious to see how long the fanboyism lasts
why do people think that they can get something for nothing ?

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by unregistered

time for some candid discussion

Dan suggested in another thread not to worry that only the motor had a 50,000 hr MTBF

this is as misleading as it can get (you buying motors or pumps ?)

the C-Systems pump has a mechanical seal on a shaft, press fit into a recess

this seal has all kinds of requirements to perform, and its general ability to last 50,000 hrs in water service should not be a burden to a mfgr wishing to sell into this market

it will be curious to see how long the fanboyism lasts
why do people think that they can get something for nothing ?

There is a cost for this pumps.... I can guarantee you that we paid for them

Of course there is mkg even on c-systems but there is nothing misleading... Dan never made any marketing promotion underlining the 50000hr MTBF (or ppl are focusing on figures only :shrug: )

That said they only have a warranty of one year (2 years for eheim pumps)...

[BillA]

my point was technical, not commercial
(something for nothing is an expression, I know they were paid for)

[BalefireX]

I think what he is suggesting is that the Laing sourced pumps with similar dimensions are ~3x the cost for more reasons than just performance.

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by BalefireX

I think what he is suggesting is that the Laing sourced pumps with similar dimensions are ~3x the cost for more reasons than just performance.

I got it now

Anyway, there is definitely a bad threading issue even on the blue pumps (anodization type II)

I have one left here and it is absolutely impossible to do more than 1 turn before starting to kill the plastic fitting...

I will post picture later (once my APN batteries are charged)

I dont know what happened but something in our order went wrong...

I allready seen by myself 4 pumps (from black kits) with unusable inlet port (one is more or less OK if you kill the fitting by placing it by force) and i have one blue one with outlet port that has threading too small to fit the plastic connector more than one turn...

[Hotseat]

The seal can be damaged during assembly, just as any o-ring on any fitting can be misplaced. Thats why you need to read users guide, and always check everything for leaks

However this is not our support center, and we do not want it to be.

C-Systems has a support staff, and if you need help contact them directly please.

Hell, I'm not even in Canada right now, have only I-net sometimes, so no position to help, and will not be for weeks

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

The seal can be damaged during assembly, just as any o-ring on any fitting can be misplaced. Thats why you need to read users guide, and always check everything for leaks
. . . . .

and what a functioning Quality Control/QA system is all about - first
ckg for leaks only limits the consequential damages

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by unregistered

and what a functioning Quality Control/QA system is all about - first
ckg for leaks only limits the consequential damages

untill now only one pump in 238 has a leak for our batch and this occured only after unmounting the unit and closing it (numerous other user has opened the unit and not leak has occured after closing it so i guess it is just a mounting issue and not a problem with the pump itself)

Anyway, there is no good reasons to open the pump anyway

Dan, once your back with a normal internet connection we have to talk with msn or any IM you like...

No others pumps has been reported as leaking until now (only one more here on procooling and this after opening and closing the unit)

[Hotseat]

Ok Antonin, but it looks like I'm going too be in field -likely middle east
Not very happy about it however seems they need me there directly.

As for leaks, any part of your system can leak at anytime. These plastic low pressure push in fittings being promoted for instance have a very bad rep in industry.

But the last time I looked, you can buy a lower costs pump and a bottle of FluidXP for less then a Laing and be 100 % safe and quite... maybe thats why there so popular.

Personally I can't say enough good words about XP, it's all we ever use, and are finding more industrial uses for it daily

Later guys.
Will try and contact you in a week or so Antonin

[BillA]

good luck in the Middle East, never a favorite destination for most

[Tos]

sounds like he's gonna build a giant oil pipeline setup with thousands of CSP750s

[DryFire]

where exactly in the middle east?

I'm from lebanon, so if you're ever heading over there i can tell you where all the good resturants and stuff is. (well now they have all seem to migrate to downtown beruit, now that it's been rebuilt).

Any way back to the pump....

You're saying you reccomend fluid xp? What happend to good old water? I don't think the fact that the CSP-750 + fluid xp < a D4 (price wise). Actually the only perosn i know that has the pumps bought them for their modularity.

[mikehotel]

Here is a e-mail I sent to C-systems.....

Hello-
I purchased your product when it was first released, I received my pump on June 24. I immediately put your pump into service in my water cooling loop; and last week it started working intermittently, now it will not work at all. I have tested the pump with fan headers I know to be powered on, (confirmed with my multimeter)....and nothing. I opened your pump to see if perhaps the impeller was binding somehow, and was shocked to see extensive corrosion and pitting inside the pump housing. I am puzzled by this because I used distilled water with the addition of 10% water wetter....I have a feeling that perhaps my pump was used when I received it; some of the Allen head screws were a bit rusty. Will you stand behind your product and replace it? I clearly did not reach the products claimed life span. Thank you,



I am really pissed! Let's see if they do the right thing.....

Here is a shot of the pump:

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by mikehotel

Here is a e-mail I sent to C-systems.....

Hello-
I purchased your product when it was first released, I received my pump on June 24. I immediately put your pump into service in my water cooling loop; and last week it started working intermittently, now it will not work at all. I have tested the pump with fan headers I know to be powered on, (confirmed with my multimeter)....and nothing. I opened your pump to see if perhaps the impeller was binding somehow, and was shocked to see extensive corrosion and pitting inside the pump housing. I am puzzled by this because I used distilled water with the addition of 10% water wetter....I have a feeling that perhaps my pump was used when I received it; some of the Allen head screws were a bit rusty. Will you stand behind your product and replace it? I clearly did not reach the products claimed life span. Thank you,



I am really pissed! Let's see if they do the right thing.....

Here is a shot of the pump:

[IMG*]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-2/641473/pump005.jpg[/IMG]

Knowing the willingness of c-systems support, i am pretty sure you will receive a MarkII for free no question asked...

[AngryAlpaca]

Originally Posted by C-systems

damage caused by the use of non standard fluids or additives such as a product known as "Water Wetter" will not be cover under the warranty.

You may get a replacement, but you don't deserve it. You also used DOUBLE that which is usually recommended in a watercooling system

[Hotseat]

Morning guys, I'm OTW Iraq
Leaving for London today, sorry Ant, not able to contact you before I go... no email. Not sure when will be back, should be at least 3 weeks.

Mike, please don't use "water wetter".
But if you send yours back, you will likely still get a replacement.

One of my engineers is studing the long term effects of this and other additives, and he will likely REALLY want to look at your unit.

Note: I'm not the expert, but it is my understanding it causes an "ecthing" effect which leads to failures.

But given how you had no noise before it stopped, likely not additives but a bad cord or electronics. We had 2 of the first 500 come back, one didn't fail was just a piece of silicon on the motor cap making noise, the other a bad cord, hence my best guess.

Thanks for the picture, good to see the housing corrosion is no issue even though it is standard anodizing.

For those that don't know about corrosion, this picture is just about perfect
You want to see no "scaring" or white build up around the inlet / out let ports.
There is a small flake which could be some concern if it didn't occur during removal. Otherwise it looks clean and stable. Wish I had a "bad" corrosion picture to show the difference.... only have laptop with me.

Daves around at C-systems all the time, if you need something Ant.

[BillA]

I have ~2 yrs experience with WW on bare and anodized aluminum. It has surfactants and other additives but its principal ingredient is a synthetic oil (Redline's main product I believe).

It will not 'harm' aluminum in any concentration that I used, to 10% or so as the water evaporated from an open system.

It WILL slime the hell out of everything eventually as it comes out of solution, I guess this is its 'protective' function
I dislike it and do not recommend it, but due to the sliming which will eventually shed and float through the system in long tendrils

but it does even stop active corrosion in bare aluminum (pump) castings and machined parts

this is only about WW

AA, get a grip on your keyboard

[Hotseat]

^ Good info there Bill, any chance Dave can email you about your experiences?
He is evaluating it for our industrial app's.

Also be understanding with Dave if ok, he is working on his S.A.E membership, and may throw you alot of questions. Junior engineers, I'm sure you know the type.

So far from what I can tell via fellow automotive engineers is the additive causes shaft, value and seal issues, however can not be specific in public.

[BillA]

sure
or (562) 595-8009

yes, all my apps are static and the pumps used (Little Giant) have glass filled pp housings
the pumps were salvage and had terrific corrosion and pitting, took ~2mos but it stopped the corrosion cold, unusual

EDIT
should add that after 6-8mos a dark grey patina (oxide) formed which seems to still be protective, though the pump now runs outside of the chiller bath

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

Morning guys, I'm OTW Iraq
Leaving for London today, sorry Ant, not able to contact you before I go... no email. Not sure when will be back, should be at least 3 weeks.

Mike, please don't use "water wetter".
But if you send yours back, you will likely still get a replacement.

One of my engineers is studing the long term effects of this and other additives, and he will likely REALLY want to look at your unit.

Note: I'm not the expert, but it is my understanding it causes an "ecthing" effect which leads to failures.

But given how you had no noise before it stopped, likely not additives but a bad cord or electronics. We had 2 of the first 500 come back, one didn't fail was just a piece of silicon on the motor cap making noise, the other a bad cord, hence my best guess.

Thanks for the picture, good to see the housing corrosion is no issue even though it is standard anodizing.

For those that don't know about corrosion, this picture is just about perfect
You want to see no "scaring" or white build up around the inlet / out let ports.
There is a small flake which could be some concern if it didn't occur during removal. Otherwise it looks clean and stable. Wish I had a "bad" corrosion picture to show the difference.... only have laptop with me.

Daves around at C-systems all the time, if you need something Ant.

I think i can get things solved with Dave...

Just hope you will not get involved in trouble in Irak... It's probably the worst place to be in the world at this time (maybe except NorthCorea, Afghanistan, many african countries, many asian countries, huuuuu, finaly there is a lot of bad places in the world ATM)

I will see with him if he has receive the 3-4 pin connector...

I still suspect a lot of user being not patient enough to fit the connector in the inlet/outlet of the pump

One person was unable to fit the plastic connector while being able to fit a NPT metal connector 3-4 turn :-/

Anyway, i will send back as many top i can to c-systems...

[mikehotel]

Here is the reply from C-systems:

Hello Matt we are sorry to hear about your problem.

Please note our user guide clearly states NOT to use water wetter, as does our warranty.



Even so, please return the unit to the following address and we will replace or rebuilt your unit.

We would normally not make this offer, however we need to evaluate your failure and offer replacement as compensation.



C-Systems

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

But here is my experience, I was in the video game industry for many years (created "warbirds" series of online game products), and there people are hired (called "trolls") to sit in forums putting down your work.

Off topic I know, but wow, are you serious?! I still have Warbirds 2.7x on my hard drive! True, I haven't played it for many years now though. lol I still rate all WW2 games flight dynamics based off WB. IMHO Warbirds3 dosen't have the magic of the older versions. Didn't like the new P-51s FM for one thing.

I'm currently playing, well, nothing. A little Lomac now and then. Looking forward to SplinterCell3, SilentHunter3, and Driver3. (must be the number lol)

Oh, buy the way, a ton of guys over at the www.silentpcreview.com forums are totally in love with your pumps. Myself, well, I'm an Iwaki guy. Good luck to you and your business!


DrCR


__________

[dariusz]

i have a small question:
i just saw that the pumps are no more guaranteed 1 year ( as they were a few weeks ago) but only 6 months, why is that? dont c-system trust their own produts quality ?

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by dariusz

i have a small question:
i just saw that the pumps are no more guaranteed 1 year ( as they were a few weeks ago) but only 6 months, why is that? dont c-system trust their own produts quality ?

no response untill Dan is back from Iraq i guess... The support team is not looking on this forum