"Radius" by BigBen2k

[bigben2k]

Here's a pic of the threaded reducer (1 1/2 to 3/4) along with the 3/4 barb (teflon please!)

[bigben2k]

and finally, here's a revised schematic (not to scale) of the seperating res and block:

[bigben2k]

One more, of that tee, with the side adapters mounted:

[bigben2k]

Oh, and here's the stuff that's going to hold the polycarbonate pieces together (thanks to gone_fishin):

[utabintarbo]

New digicam Ben?

[bigben2k]

He, no, just the latest batch from my trusty 35mm camera (Minolta Maxxum 7000).

Wall-Mart has something for $50, 640 by 480 (with macro!), with 8mb integrated and USB connection, but my 'puter doesn't have a USB connector, and anyways, it's still running the ole Win 95!

HP also makes a scanner that will scan negs, so I might go that route instead, because I don't care for the low resolution of the digicam. Processing becomes cheaper.

It all depends on price!

[nicozeg]

Great finding that of the polycarbonate fissures! Although that methilene chloride seems to be difficult to buy.

I was always amazed by that crack stories, because my experience was that it was unbreakable.

I’m impressed by the patience you have to read through all kind off stuff, to find information.

About your block: all that setup is going to put a great torque on the mounting system. How’s going that?

[nicozeg]

And beware of that cheap scanners with slide adapters, those are pure crap. :shrug:

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by nicozeg
Great finding that of the polycarbonate fissures! Although that methilene chloride seems to be difficult to buy.

I was always amazed by that crack stories, because my experience was that it was unbreakable.

I’m impressed by the patience you have to read through all kind off stuff, to find information.

About your block: all that setup is going to put a great torque on the mounting system. How’s going that?

Thanks.

The original block designed called for a flexible tube, but since I got a piece of it, I could see that the torque was still going to be an issue.

I gave Utabintarbo the dimensions of the inside of my case. In short, It'll hang from the crossbar. Hopefully that'll be OK. I might have to use a shim for fitting it all, and figure out a way to get around the pump...

[mfpmax]

Originally posted by bigben2k

Wall-Mart has something for $50, 640 by 480 (with macro!), with 8mb integrated and USB connection, but my 'puter doesn't have a USB connector, and anyways, it's still running the ole Win 95!

Stay away...

$50 more will get you a "decent" crappy 1.3MP Digital camera.

But the USB thing will still hold you back.

[bigben2k]

The McMaster order arrived yesterday, minus the inner tube which may ship in a week. The size of the o-ring really puts the size of it all into perspective!

Got confirmation that the US Plastics order shipped yesterday, so I expect it by Friday.

The next order will be for the endmill bit(s) and/or cutting disc(s).

[gone_fishin]

Nice to see your project coming along A question on the case/pump pic. You have the discharge facing down and the suction almost reaching the back and near the processor area, will this create the use of a lot of otherwise unnecessary elbows?

[MeltMan]

Judging by the size of that pump, it wont make a whole hell of a lot of difference.

[bigben2k]

A valid question Gone_fishin.

Since I've opted NOT to put the pump at the bottom of the case (because it may interfere with the PCI slots), I'm left putting it as shown. The tee at the pump inlet is for a ball valve, for draining, but since the pump is no longer the lowest point, the tee will be removed and put somewhere else in the loop.

However...

The pump in that configuration may get in the way of the block and res! So if need be, I'll bolt the pump vertically on the side panel (inside). "Little Giant" specs state that it is OK to run it in any orientation.

Since I've gone to 3/4, I am going to pick up a volute for a Little Giant 3-MDQ-SC (once dimensions are confirmed, thanks to Hellion_Prime), which will give me the 3/4 inlet and outlet that I want on my 2-MDQ-SC. It may also resolve any issues that may come up with the small inlet.

Hopefully, this will not affect pump performance/specs: the 2-MDQX-SC has that volute, but is rated for lower pressure.

[bigben2k]

Latest report:

The US Plastics order hasn't arrived yet, but the invoice made it.

I'm thinking about sending some of that polycarbonate to Fixittt, for a prototype (once I've got the endmill(s) ).

Res assembly is progressing. I'm trimming the window. Polycarbonate is hard! (wishing I had my Dremel with me!). BTW, the "1/4" sample is about 1/32 short of being 1/4 thick, but I expected that. It's 5.5 mm, so if Fixittt makes a prototype, it'll leave 0.5 mm as a baseplate.

A lucky coincidence: the threaded adapters don't give me a tight fit, when I screw anything into them. I thought that the teflon tape would help, but that was like wishing that paint would mask some scratches. As it turns out, the o-rings fit perfectly in the adapter, so I no longer have a potential seal problem! And of course, they only came in a pack of 25

[LiquidRulez]

Cant wait to see the results BEN.

Hows the performance with your new A7V8X board? Any problems so far??

[bigben2k]

I can't wait either

I don't have an A7V8X, but I might pick up the A7N8X over the holidays, if my patience fails me just because I need measurements on the location of that socket!

[bigben2k]

US Plastics order arrived yesterday.

That flex PVC elbow is nicely flexible! (well worth it).

The nylon adapter fits nice and tight: no need for an o-ring there. It's also nicely tapered inside, a la ASME.

The flange and neoprene gasket (darn thick stuff!) will work well, but it's pretty big, so I might rebuild the airtrap in 1 inch, I dunno yet, depends on how it's all going to fit in the case. I can pickup the flange locally, as long as it's smaller than 1 1/2...

[LiquidRulez]

Originally posted by bigben2k
I can't wait either

I don't have an A7V8X, but I might pick up the A7N8X over the holidays, if my patience fails me just because I need measurements on the location of that socket!

Sorry dude. I meant A7N8X. Is the socket supposed to be in a different place?

I must check into that because that would surely throw a wrench into my plans if it is. I just assumed that the A7N8X would go by the usual AMD socket A specs.:shrug:

I hope you get it all put together soon. Id really like to see how it performs. Sounds promising.

[bigben2k]

My main concern right now is the placement of it all: if the socket (which would be on top of a mounted mobo) causes the seperating res to interfere with the seperating plate (mid-level) in the case, then I'd have to cut into that plate.

The inlets and outlets of the pump, block, rad and airtrap might end up at really odd distances from each other, but I won't know how it's all going to fit until I have the mobo.

Xmas shopping is putting a dent in my budget, so I'll have to wait until January to pick up the mobo, which is a good thing, because I want to see what KT400A has to offer.

[bigben2k]

If anyone ever wondered why McMaster shipping is so high...

I received the last part of my order, Friday: the 4 foot long 3/4 OD 5/8 ID tube. It was packed in a 4 foot long box (4 x 4), which was in turn stuffed into a 5 foot long box (6 x 6), with stuffing paper.

Of course, I only need a few inches

I got casters for the case .

[bigben2k]

I almost forgot...

A non-progress item: where I work, there's a big shop for the oil drilling tools, and wandering through it all Friday, I found a particularly interestint area: the "Lapping room".

[bigben2k]

Yesterday's progress:

I finished shaping the window, but I haven't glued it yet, because I may need to be able to slip my fingers in there!

I cut a 1 1/4 piece of tube, and tried to glue it with the (above) "Plastic Welder" to the cold side inlet, but the connecting point was the polypropylene 3/4 barb (inside), and the glue just wouldn't stick to it. On the plus side, I didn't need a clamp to join the elbow to the tube, so I opted to use Goop only, and forego the clamp. Also, the "Plastic Welder" bonded with the polycarbonate in a chemical reaction, which is the best one can hope.

So after lining everything up, I ended up using the Goop to connect the tube to the (screw in) inlet adapter, and fixing the tube, elbow and all.

I also had to shape/trim that 1 1/2 barb, to be able to slip the bigger tube over it, but again, I didn't glue it, since I had already found out that the "Plastic Welder" had no effect on polypropylene.

The next step is to send off a piece of Polycarbonate to Fixittt, for a prototype. In the mean time, I can finish the top (inner tube, and block top) and run some flow tests.

[jaydee]

I have a few questions as I have tried to read as much of this thread as I can but I know I missed some stuff.

I looooong time ago myv65 made a statment (I belive it was at amdmb.com)(and this is not at all a quote so correct me if I am off base). You cannot get below ambient temp with strait water cooling and in fact ambient is not possible as any type of flow be it air or water creates it's own heat by friction from the moving matter against the non moving matter. That was not exactly as he said it but that is what I got out of it.

At the time I argued this a little, but come to know it as fact. So is it also true that the faster that flow is going the more heat it will make? So one question is with that massive amount of flow rate, what kind of self generating heat will be made by the water and whats in it? And second, with that massive pump, how much heat will be added to the water from it? That impellor has to be creating some serious friction with the water and I would think it would add some heat, not to mention the elecrtric motor itself adding a lot of heat. And then the air going through whatever radiator you have in mind. (have you calculated the offset of the restrictve radiator in your flow calculations?)

So my main question is will this extra added heat outway the actual performace gain you think you might get from this setup compared to more conventional setups? And being you cannot go below ambient or at ambient how much better do you expect this to be over the best now. I can't see it being much better than what cathar has done as it has to be getting close to the limit. And I mean close being 5-8C of ambient which may not be close for some but it is to me.

Sorry if these are a dumb questions as I honestly have no clue about any of the scientifc data compiled in this project. It is over my head.

[LiquidRulez]

I dont think ANY watercooling solution' performance is getting close to its limit for cooling with water.
I think it still has alot of tweaking to do.
After all, water is the best liquid thermal conductor known to man isnt it?? We still have a way to go before we hit the wall with water for cooling.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
I dont think ANY watercooling solution' performance is getting close to its limit for cooling with water.
I think it still has alot of tweaking to do.
After all, water is the best liquid thermal conductor known to man isnt it?? We still have a way to go before we hit the wall with water for cooling.

I do not see how this is possible as Cathars blocks are getting around 9-10C above ambient? If you cannot get ambient than that leaves what? 7-8C more room roughly depending on the load. Where is the point to where it hits the "wall" as you speak? You must know that answer or you wouldn't have made that statement?

Non the less thats not really what I was asking anyway. Basically I want to know if all this "heavy" equipment will do any better than more conventional systems. Faster flow means the water will heat up a little as it is creating frinction. So the faster the flow the more heat it will create. He is talking about an extream amount of flow and I just wonder if it is necassary or even worse if it may hamper it.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by jaydee116
I do not see how this is possible as Cathars blocks are getting around 9-10C above ambient? If you cannot get ambient than that leaves what? 7-8C more room roughly depending on the load. Where is the point to where it hits the "wall" as you speak? You must know that answer or you wouldn't have made that statement?

Well my numbers above must not be even close to right.

I pulled this from another thread:

add 3 or 4 for the coolant/air differential and the CPU would have to be below 20W to even be close to a real 10°C differential

That was said by unregistered in a thread I started here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...7&pagenumber=3

[freeloadingbum]

by LiquidRulez:
I dont think ANY watercooling solution' performance is getting close to its limit for cooling with water.

I disagree. As far as waterblocks are concerned, I don't think you are going to see much better than the "whitewater". If you look at one of Bill Adams tests, you'll see that the baseplate of the liquidCC block is about 7C hotter than the water @100watt load (1.5gpm). Cathar's block should be about 3 or 4C better, so the baseplate should be about 3C above water temp. Since the effort needed to get the baseplate the same temp as the water would be unrealistic, I doubt we will ever see more than a 1 or 2C improvement. (Since cathar's block hasn't being properly tested against the LiquidCC, the actual numbers are debatable)

The biggest problem is the loss at the T.I.M. joint. No design, aside from direct die cooling, should have any affect on that loss.

[bigben2k]

As BillA pointed out, I've tried to incorporate the best of the best into one block, and finding out that it may not be possible to have everything.

In any rig, there is certainly a limit to the cooling ability, and it is dictated mostly by the "gradients" that BillA previously mentionned. In short, for as long as there is any kind of material between the heat source and the cooling fluid, there will be a difference in temperature, but more importantly there will be a hot side and a cold side to the baseplate. The baseplate is what really defines the limitations of the temp (along with the TIM joint, of course).

One thing that Radius does well is optimize the flow speed for the hot spot (over the core). You just can't get better than that (jet inpingement excluded). The baseplate is at a minimal thickness (2mm, which may be reduced to 1mm), which is just about optimal for the fin pattern, but not necessarily the thinnest of all design, and that's one of the limitations of Radius: White Water has continuous fins, where most of Radius' fins are "broken", for flow reasons.

I've specified that the baseplate will also have tiny holes over it, about the size of a 1 mm drill bit head, similar to the drill-press blocks and the Swiftech unit: it increases the surface area.

One thing that is unique, is the seperating res. Many people have thought about making something like it, but I've never seen one. It's advantaged by minimal restrictions, but disadvantaged by it's enormous size.

As for the pump heat, the motor is isolated (direct-drive of a magnet assembly), so that's not an issue (except that it will need a good vent). The pumping heat is still somewhat nebulous to me, as I'm finding out that there's heat from the propeller, as well as from the restrictions throughout the loop, which means that the nozzle at the entrance of the block will generate heat, but it should be relatively small compared to the heat that it will take away.

In any case, I am trying to achieve a Reynolds number (a dimensionless number indicating wether the flow is laminar or turbulent) in excess of 4000, which corresponds with turbulent flow, which is needed for the extra cooling ability. Of course I would need to optimize the flow and block so that the flow is turbulent only in the critical area: over the core. So far, it looks like my pump can't achieve that on its own, and so turbulators will have to compensate for what the pump can't do. Also, as has been pointed out earlier, it's far more efficient to add turbulators, than to use a very powerfull pump.

I'll be trying out a CFD program, to see if I can graph the flow within Radius. It should at least help me optimize the outlet for a balanced flow.

[freeloadingbum]

One thing that is unique, is the seperating res. Many people have thought about making something like it, but I've never seen one. It's advantaged by minimal restrictions, but disadvantaged by it's enormous size.

I was looking at that rez and I think I have a simpler way to do it. You cover the base with a large copper cap. You have a copper tube going through the center with a large round flange soldered to the end, covering the radius in the base. The water flows past the flange through the space between the flange and copper cap and up to 2 output barbs soldered to the copper cap. You can drill jet holes into the flange to speed up the flow. I drew a picture using ms paint.