"Radius" by BigBen2k - Page 12

jaydee · 12-31-2002, 08:05 PM

Thanks bigben for the quick summary. You still didn't directly answer my question but I think that is because you are not sure yet either. Glad you are making progress on this. It will be very interesting to see how it comes out.

bigben2k · 01-02-2003, 08:41 AM

Interesting.

I like the simplicity, and the lower height/width.

I'm still going to go ahead with mine: it has many clear parts, for a visual observation of the flow.

I'm re-doing the airtrap, out of 3/4 pieces and 1 inch OD tubing. Here's a pic of the original one, out of 1 1/2 fittings, and 2 inch OD tubing:

bigben2k · 01-02-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Thanks bigben for the quick summary. You still didn't directly answer my question but I think that is because you are not sure yet either. Glad you are making progress on this. It will be very interesting to see how it comes out.

Ok, I must have missed your question... but I do that often!

I don't know exactly how much heat is added, but it can be calculated as a function of flow rate and pressure drop. In any case, it's not significant (I'm sure). I might take the time to try to calculate it, if it's of interest to anyone.

As for cooling below ambient (and a rad), that's part of phase 1. I do expect a drop in flow rate, with a rad, but that's ok. In phase 2 and 3, I'll add a Pelt, and a chiller (a la #rotor), which will eventually do away with the rad, restoring full flow.

So talking about phase 1 only... the temp will depend a lot on the air flow rate through the rad/heatercore (as you pointed out). The block will have to be tested with different baseplate thickness, to find the optimal one, but since I'm nowhere near having a proper test facility, I'll either "wing it" or send it out for testing. Either way, there will be a performance inprovement over "more conventional" setups, but as BillA pointed out himself, the benefits of running a 4 gpm rig enter an area where the cost/benefit ratio isn't wise. In other words, it might be 1 or 2 degree cooler than most blocks.

All in all, I don't expect to beat White Water, but I think that if any design could, it would have to be something awfully similar to this. If I could tweak out the water entrance point issues, it should beat Cathar's White Water, but I don't have enough expertise to do that.

hara · 01-02-2003, 11:44 AM

So, whitewater is unbeatable?

Cathar should patent.

bigben2k · 01-02-2003, 12:00 PM

He can't, it's already a patented concept, but he has copyright on the assembly, as a whole.

Out of all the waterblocks out there, they can generally be categorized: ~flat-plate (Swiftech), labyrinth (Maze, Spiral), etc...

We're at a point where some of these concepts have to be combined, in order to get more performance. In other words, you're not going to be able to tweak a Maze3 to get a couple more degrees, without adding something to it (fins, jet,...).

Cathar successfully combined a fast flow (not quite jet) and micro-fin.

bigben2k · 01-04-2003, 03:13 PM

Here's another pic (last on roll), which explains why I didn't go with flex tubing for the res. (in short: the 1 1/2 barb is WAY too long, so I cut it down for a rigid tube. It's cut even more than in this pic.)

Note: this thread now has the most number of views, with 12'842 !

LiquidRulez · 01-05-2003, 12:06 AM

SO when's it going to be done Ben? Cant wait to see it assembled and ready to mount.

jaydee · 01-05-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
SO when's it going to be done Ben? Cant wait to see it assembled and ready to mount.

What he said!!

:shrug:

bigben2k · 01-06-2003, 07:01 AM

Well, seeing that I'm building it for Barton, and that it isn't here... your guess is as good as mine! Maybe a month or two.

I'm building this thing on the weekends, and since life is pretty busy here, I get maybe one half day, every other weekend. I do however have a lot more time to think about it!

Yesterday, I realized I made a measurement fault, so I've got to cut another piece of tube, for the part between the screw/barb cap, and the clear flexible elbow.

Lucky for me, I've got 4 feet of the stuff...

I've also started to look into the hardware needed for the mount. I'll go with the idea Utabintarbo had, which is a set of outriggers. Screws have to be 6-32, since the (new) hole size is now 0.150 inch. Once I've figured out which springs to use, I can spec the screw, and place my order with McMaster.

Right now, I still need to figure out which epoxy to use for polypropylene (the 1 1/2 barb and tube connection), since the plastic welder is useless.

bigben2k · 01-06-2003, 09:35 AM

Been googling... and I may have found a product that might allow me to bond polypropylene:

http://www.nbond.com/techdata.html

The problem I had came from this fact: polypropylene is a "low energy plastic", aka a non-stick plastic, much like Teflon.

http://www.nbond.com/faq.html#lowen

On the plus side, cyanoacrylate (superglue) might work too.

Still searching...

edit:
e-mailed 3M and Lepage.

bigben2k · 01-07-2003, 08:05 AM

Ok...

3M says they don't have anything that'll withstand methanol, but otherwise recommend DP-8005 or DP-8010, Structural Plastic adhesive. They sent me a PDF for each one. One note:

"However, these adhesives have .008" microspheres (glass bubbles) so you would have to design the parts; ID and OD to accept the microspheres."

I e-mailed Loctite. No reply from Lepage.

bigben2k · 01-07-2003, 09:16 AM

Here's the final render (thanks to Utabintarbo!):

Puzzdre · 01-07-2003, 10:10 AM

Looks beautiful!!!

Do you have the clamping mechanism ready or in progress?

bigben2k · 01-07-2003, 10:21 AM

As I just mentionned to Utabintarbo, I'll be going with his outrigger idea.

I think I'll make them stick out from the top: it'll avoid having to mill copper anymore than it has to be.

bigben2k · 01-07-2003, 02:55 PM

Devcon says: "We don't have a solution, but consider abs or nylon, instead of polypropylene, in which case you can use the Plastic Welder".

It's actually a good idea...

bigben2k · 01-08-2003, 08:34 AM

From Loctite:

"PP is the more difficult of your two substrates to bond. Our best
solution is to apply Primer 770 to the PP, then try one of our cyanoacrylates, such as 401. This should give you a good bond, but you would need to test for the fluid exposure, as cyanoacrylates do not typically have the best long-term resistance
to water. Another possibility with better fluid resistance, but lower adhesion to PP, would be a UV acrylic, such as 3105. The datasheets can be downloaded from our website."

bigben2k · 01-11-2003, 01:24 PM

For those still in the dark...(sorry!) I'm opting to replace the polypropylene barb, with a nylon one.

In the mean time, OC forums killed an idea to sponsor DIY blockmakers, for a round of tests by Bill Adams, but in the middle of it all, there was some info about Radius that I thought I'd repost here:

1-My pump may only deliver a pressure equivalent to 9 feet of head, at 250 gph. There seems to be many versions of the 2-MDQ-SC, I guess I hoped that mine was one of the best, at 10.5 feet.

2-I estimated the flow/pressure at 4 gpm, and 11 feet of head (through the block): if you've been following this thread, you know that this only referred to the inlet (still incorrectly), and not the flow inside the block, past the nozzle, so the block is actually a lot more restrictive. Les estimates a head of 35 to 50 feet, at 4 gpm.

Total heads loss (at 4 gpm):
3/4 ID tubing: 0.62" of head, per foot of tubing
rad: n/a (when it goes to a chiller)
res: about 2" of head

3-That nozzle (above) was to be 3/16. I've since decided/recalculated to go with 3/8. Either way, I'll be ordering a polycarbonate rod, 5/8 ID (to fit the inner res tube) so that I can try different nozzles.

4-More importantly, Bill pointed out that viscosity changes significantly at a lower temp, to which I replied that using the Windshield Wiper fluid will make little to no difference, at least according to Scott Gamble (corrections notwithstanding).

5-Bill has pointed out (correclty) that I have no modelling software. I do plan to use one, when I can find it (free CFD anywhere?) and have the time to mess with it.

Now all this started when I called Radius a high flow/high pressure block, which was of course objected to.

Since87 · 01-11-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

In the mean time, OC forums killed an idea to sponsor DIY blockmakers, for a round of tests by Bill Adams, but in the middle of it all, there was some info about Radius that I thought I'd repost here:

No, the sticky for requesting sponsorship is still there.

The idea of trying to collect donations from members for a prize is pretty well dead though.

bigben2k · 01-11-2003, 01:55 PM

Well, I almost lost that, in all the confusion!

Sponsor thread

As posted, I'm not solliciting any pledges at this time, because the thing ain't built yet!

Les · 01-11-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
.

Les estimates a head of 35 to 50 feet, at 4 gpm.

No.
"35 to 50ft" at 40fps and non-consequentially 4gpm ( 0.031 sq in X-section).

m3_arun · 01-11-2003, 06:57 PM

its hard to get 4gpm flowrate in a WC system without a super-powerful pump. (i think)

bigben2k · 01-12-2003, 10:43 AM

I agree.

I never actually estimated the flow restriction of the inside of the block, so until I actually figure it out, or test the prototype, it'll remain a mystery.

Otherwise, I agree: there's no way I'll get 4 gpm with this block and pump.

Look out for a new thread on CFD.

bigben2k · 01-16-2003, 04:09 PM

Here's the latest render, with outriggers:
(Thanks to Utabintarbo)

ref14490

hara · 01-16-2003, 04:44 PM

When will the base be ready?

bigben2k · 01-16-2003, 05:26 PM

Dunno:shrug:

Utabintarbo will get the measurements to Fixittt, who'll make a prototype in polycarbonate (for my flow tests).

Right now, we're having a conversion issue: Utabintarbo can translate the Solidworks file to IGES, but Fixittt wants a DXF to import to <insert CNC format here>, and SolidWorks doesn't do DXF

nicozeg · 01-16-2003, 06:27 PM

So you need a software that read and writes both formats?

Try the Rhinoceros demo from www.rhino3d.com

The demo is fully functional, but it only allows 20 saves/exports. More than enough for your task.

utabintarbo · 01-17-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nicozeg
So you need a software that read and writes both formats?

Try the Rhinoceros demo from www.rhino3d.com

The demo is fully functional, but it only allows 20 saves/exports. More than enough for your task.

Yeah, I've been meaning to revisit Rhino. Will try it and see.

Bob

bigben2k · 01-17-2003, 12:08 PM

(finally!) got a reply from Lepage:

Quote:

We do not have a product for polyethylene tubing.

Susan
Technical Service

utabintarbo · 01-20-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
(finally!) got a reply from Lepage:

Funny how terse they are when they figure out that they can't sell you something!

:shrug:

Bob

jaydee · 01-20-2003, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
and SolidWorks doesn't do DXF

I got SolidWorks 2003 and it lets me save in .DXF format?

01-02-2003, 12:00 PM	#335
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	He can't, it's already a patented concept, but he has copyright on the assembly, as a whole. Out of all the waterblocks out there, they can generally be categorized: ~flat-plate (Swiftech), labyrinth (Maze, Spiral), etc... We're at a point where some of these concepts have to be combined, in order to get more performance. In other words, you're not going to be able to tweak a Maze3 to get a couple more degrees, without adding something to it (fins, jet,...). Cathar successfully combined a fast flow (not quite jet) and micro-fin. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-06-2003, 07:01 AM	#339
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Well, seeing that I'm building it for Barton, and that it isn't here... your guess is as good as mine! Maybe a month or two. I'm building this thing on the weekends, and since life is pretty busy here, I get maybe one half day, every other weekend. I do however have a lot more time to think about it! Yesterday, I realized I made a measurement fault, so I've got to cut another piece of tube, for the part between the screw/barb cap, and the clear flexible elbow. Lucky for me, I've got 4 feet of the stuff... I've also started to look into the hardware needed for the mount. I'll go with the idea Utabintarbo had, which is a set of outriggers. Screws have to be 6-32, since the (new) hole size is now 0.150 inch. Once I've figured out which springs to use, I can spec the screw, and place my order with McMaster. Right now, I still need to figure out which epoxy to use for polypropylene (the 1 1/2 barb and tube connection), since the plastic welder is useless. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-06-2003, 09:35 AM	#340
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	polypropylene adhesive Been googling... and I may have found a product that might allow me to bond polypropylene: http://www.nbond.com/techdata.html The problem I had came from this fact: polypropylene is a "low energy plastic", aka a non-stick plastic, much like Teflon. http://www.nbond.com/faq.html#lowen On the plus side, cyanoacrylate (superglue) might work too. Still searching... edit: e-mailed 3M and Lepage. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 01-06-2003 at 10:10 AM.

01-07-2003, 08:05 AM	#341
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ok... 3M says they don't have anything that'll withstand methanol, but otherwise recommend DP-8005 or DP-8010, Structural Plastic adhesive. They sent me a PDF for each one. One note: "However, these adhesives have .008" microspheres (glass bubbles) so you would have to design the parts; ID and OD to accept the microspheres." I e-mailed Loctite. No reply from Lepage. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-07-2003, 10:10 AM	#343
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	Looks beautiful!!! Do you have the clamping mechanism ready or in progress? __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

12-31-2002, 08:05 PM	#331
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Thanks bigben for the quick summary. You still didn't directly answer my question but I think that is because you are not sure yet either. Glad you are making progress on this. It will be very interesting to see how it comes out.

01-02-2003, 11:44 AM	#334
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	So, whitewater is unbeatable? Cathar should patent.

01-05-2003, 12:06 AM	#337
LiquidRulez Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In Hell Posts: 322	SO when's it going to be done Ben? Cant wait to see it assembled and ready to mount.

01-07-2003, 02:55 PM	#345
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Devcon says: "We don't have a solution, but consider abs or nylon, instead of polypropylene, in which case you can use the Plastic Welder". It's actually a good idea... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-08-2003, 08:34 AM	#346
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	From Loctite: "PP is the more difficult of your two substrates to bond. Our best solution is to apply Primer 770 to the PP, then try one of our cyanoacrylates, such as 401. This should give you a good bond, but you would need to test for the fluid exposure, as cyanoacrylates do not typically have the best long-term resistance to water. Another possibility with better fluid resistance, but lower adhesion to PP, would be a UV acrylic, such as 3105. The datasheets can be downloaded from our website." __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-11-2003, 01:24 PM	#347
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	For those still in the dark...(sorry!) I'm opting to replace the polypropylene barb, with a nylon one. In the mean time, OC forums killed an idea to sponsor DIY blockmakers, for a round of tests by Bill Adams, but in the middle of it all, there was some info about Radius that I thought I'd repost here: 1-My pump may only deliver a pressure equivalent to 9 feet of head, at 250 gph. There seems to be many versions of the 2-MDQ-SC, I guess I hoped that mine was one of the best, at 10.5 feet. 2-I estimated the flow/pressure at 4 gpm, and 11 feet of head (through the block): if you've been following this thread, you know that this only referred to the inlet (still incorrectly), and not the flow inside the block, past the nozzle, so the block is actually a lot more restrictive. Les estimates a head of 35 to 50 feet, at 4 gpm. Total heads loss (at 4 gpm): 3/4 ID tubing: 0.62" of head, per foot of tubing rad: n/a (when it goes to a chiller) res: about 2" of head 3-That nozzle (above) was to be 3/16. I've since decided/recalculated to go with 3/8. Either way, I'll be ordering a polycarbonate rod, 5/8 ID (to fit the inner res tube) so that I can try different nozzles. 4-More importantly, Bill pointed out that viscosity changes significantly at a lower temp, to which I replied that using the Windshield Wiper fluid will make little to no difference, at least according to Scott Gamble (corrections notwithstanding). 5-Bill has pointed out (correclty) that I have no modelling software. I do plan to use one, when I can find it (free CFD anywhere?) and have the time to mess with it. Now all this started when I called Radius a high flow/high pressure block, which was of course objected to. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-11-2003, 01:55 PM	#349
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Well, I almost lost that, in all the confusion! Sponsor thread As posted, I'm not solliciting any pledges at this time, because the thing ain't built yet! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-11-2003, 06:57 PM	#351
m3_arun Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: san jose, ca Posts: 91	its hard to get 4gpm flowrate in a WC system without a super-powerful pump. (i think) __________________ AthlonXP 1800+ @ 135x11.5 Epox 8k5a2+ Antec SX830 case 256MB Micron PC2400 WC system soon... Iwaki MD-30RZ (getting fittings right now) Cathar WW block #102 (arrived) Heater core (still pondering) (still need to get tubing)

01-12-2003, 10:43 AM	#352
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I agree. I never actually estimated the flow restriction of the inside of the block, so until I actually figure it out, or test the prototype, it'll remain a mystery. Otherwise, I agree: there's no way I'll get 4 gpm with this block and pump. Look out for a new thread on CFD. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-16-2003, 04:44 PM	#354
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	When will the base be ready?

01-16-2003, 05:26 PM	#355
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Dunno:shrug: Utabintarbo will get the measurements to Fixittt, who'll make a prototype in polycarbonate (for my flow tests). Right now, we're having a conversion issue: Utabintarbo can translate the Solidworks file to IGES, but Fixittt wants a DXF to import to <insert CNC format here>, and SolidWorks doesn't do DXF __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 01-20-2003 at 07:28 PM.

01-16-2003, 06:27 PM	#356
nicozeg Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 403	So you need a software that read and writes both formats? Try the Rhinoceros demo from www.rhino3d.com The demo is fully functional, but it only allows 20 saves/exports. More than enough for your task.

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