"Radius" by BigBen2k

[killernoodle]

A mold can be made much easier than a waterblock because of the ease of clay to mill. You can actually use normal modeling clay, put it in a kiln to dry it, put that on a cnc machine or a mill, and grind out the negative of the waterblock. This would be easier on the radius because the pattern of the fins is more adept for milling than the channels would be. If they do not carry end mills that are the correct size, I believe dremel sells some for tile that would work perfectly. I might make something like this to test the theory, but I cannot melt copper with the stuff I have to work will so maybe lead or tin will have to do for a model of the process.

I believe Thermaltake uses casting for their waterblock for the aquarius (sp?) and, if I'm not mistaken, the top of the silverprop evolution all copper one is cast.

[JFettig]

Killer noodle, its much harder and more time consuming to do it that way, I am doing the actual machining of this block when I finish my mill, Its not as hard as you think it is. I have done a lot with small end mills, and bigben already has his 1mm end mills that he will send me to use.

Jon

[killernoodle]

How long will it take to mill the block? What will your feed rate be and what depth are you cutting? Im a very curious person

[JFettig]

I would guess that block would take around 45minutes to an hour. The maximum cut you can take with an end mill under 3/4" is 1/2*diameter wich would be .5mm. I usually take it a little under that to be safe.
The IPM I will have to figure out later, itll be around 2-6IPM.

Bigben, I hope those end mills are carbide! otherwize the feed will be like 1ipm and .01" depth cuts.

Jon

[bigben2k]

Oh yeah, they're carbide! ("Solid micrograin carbide", not coated).


The graph above was posted by a Frenchman (Roscal?) and shows the heat dissipation pattern through a typical "maze" block. I really don't remember any other details about it, unfortunately. Either way, the point was that the heat spreads radially from the shape of origin.


I recently came across a term called "cold casting", which has the advantage of not putting any air (or oxygen) in the copper. I haven' pursued it more than that. Surely it's casting at a relatively high temperature, but probably not as high as one might expect. On the other hand, maybe its more akin to filling the mold with copper bits, then gently melting it into shape... I really dunno.

[Huckleberry]

At the right temperature and pressure, copper (also aluminium, steel, etc.) becomes plastic. Shaping or adhesion can then be accomplished without introducing much in the way of contaminants. You can also avoid many of the fractures that normally form when a liquid metal cools from a liquid state back to a solid - thus preserving (and sometimes improving even) the crystalline structure of the original metal. I wouldn't be surprised if "cold casting" is using some of the same techniques. Casting can often introduce not only impurities and unwanted oxidation, but stress-fractures too. I can’t imagine that fractures of any type would improve the thermal conductivity of a waterblock.

Industry uses this technique extensively with friction-stir welding.

[bigben2k]

"Friction-stir welding" eh? Something else to look up...

[Tacops]

http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/unprotecte.../fswintro.html

Friction Still Welding Information

Some Pics on how the process works and what machine is needed
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2003/FSW/aaa.html

[JFettig]

It appears noone has said anything about the spiral heat output;
Do you guys actually think that it does have a sprial heat output?
I personally know, especially after seeing that, that it isnt the case.


Hint: take a look at the waterblock geometry.

Jon

[bigben2k]

Spiral: no. Radial: yes (more or less).

[JFettig]

ok, heres the reason, you have the water input in the center, right in the center above the core the fins are cooler untill the heat spreads ******d a little more, the water picks up more heat and pushes it around, by the time it hits the outside its actually warming up the waterblock at that point its all warm, If the waterblock was different, like a ww with only 2 barbs, the outlet side might be a tad warmer to begin with.

Jon

[jaydee]

Hehe, someone is beating you to it Ben.

[killernoodle]

Oh noes! Is that an aluminum mock up I see? Needs more stuff in the middle.

[BalefireX]

Maybe its silver <evil grin>

Wasn't darren21 (the guy who made that block) talking with Ben about machining a Radius for him a few months back? This could be the fruition of those talks.

[jaydee]

It is aluminum prototype. He has it posted in the Water Block Gallery in the stickies.

[bigben2k]

No connecting fins in the center

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

No connecting fins in the center

So? ........................

[killernoodle]

Completely ignoring JD's 4th grade response to BB2K's observation , I think it also needs some junk in the middle, otherwise it wouldnt feel complete. Remember all the way back to pg 1 with the initial drawing that started this massive post? (I know, that was a LONG time ago and many posts ago) You need some SA in the middle for optimum cooling.

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

No connecting fins in the center

Off subject I know, but I noticed your wtba.us site, and its nice. I also noticed you had a conversions table setup, but was mostly missing its code. I was just going to suggest having that page be a link to download convert.exe. Not sure where exactly the homepage is, but Google will find it fast I'm sure. Convert.exe is the bomb program for conversions, it covers all the measurements you have listed in your webpage, and many, many more. Highly recommended, have used it for years.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by killernoodle

Completely ignoring JD's 4th grade response to BB2K's observation , I think it also needs some junk in the middle, otherwise it wouldnt feel complete. Remember all the way back to pg 1 with the initial drawing that started this massive post? (I know, that was a LONG time ago and many posts ago) You need some SA in the middle for optimum cooling.

LOL, 4th grade was higher than I was shooting for. There are actually some significant differences. hard to say from the pic but those fins and channels look much bigger than Ben's. I am not sure the center really needs anything, but may help in dividing the flow up. Also for strength if nothing else. All the hold down pressure is pretty much centered in the block. With nothing there to help support it could break or bend or something. Providingthe base thickness is a thin as it should be with such a design.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

Off subject I know, but I noticed your wtba.us site, and its nice. I also noticed you had a conversions table setup, but was mostly missing its code. I was just going to suggest having that page be a link to download convert.exe. Not sure where exactly the homepage is, but Google will find it fast I'm sure. Convert.exe is the bomb program for conversions, it covers all the measurements you have listed in your webpage, and many, many more. Highly recommended, have used it for years.

I use www.onlineconversion.com Is that similar to what your thinking or is that an actual program.

[WAJ_UK]

just thought I would throw in another http://www.katmarsoftware.com/uconeer.htm very easy to use with every conversion I'll ever need

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

Off subject I know, but I noticed your wtba.us site, and its nice. I also noticed you had a conversions table setup, but was mostly missing its code. I was just going to suggest having that page be a link to download convert.exe. Not sure where exactly the homepage is, but Google will find it fast I'm sure. Convert.exe is the bomb program for conversions, it covers all the measurements you have listed in your webpage, and many, many more. Highly recommended, have used it for years.

Thanks for the kind words.

The conversion module appears to be working fine here. I know it's a little sketchy, but you never need to scroll down the whole page: you can simply click on the unit that you want to convert. The bug is that the cursor doesn't change to let you know that you can do this: I guess it's because of how this module was designed.

It's going to need a few more conversions, for water cooling purposes.

I might add a download link in a new section: I'm still building up that part of it.

I had to move the currency converter to the front page: it doesn't work otherwise (I haven't tried to fix it to work on other pages yet).

Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the results.The only thing that worries me is the run time of this PHP coding, and more specifically, how functional the site is in Europe.

I'm also planning to add multi-lingual support, to include whatever language is available for this Mambo front end (French, Russian, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese, Czeck, ...). I'll also create a custom module to show "top 5 forum threads". Lots of work ahead.



Back on topic...

The connecting fins in the middle are really critical: they're the most significant fins off the baseplate, as they sit right over the core, and extend the effective surface area.

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

I use www.onlineconversion.com Is that similar to what your thinking or is that an actual program.

You don't need to install it though, totally portable in Wintel platforms. Nice program, very geared to the propeller-head types. Some stuff like flow is kinda useful to watercoolers. If you like I can send it to you as an attachment. I really dig that on-line conversions site you linked, already in my favorites. Thanks.

EDIT

Originally Posted by WAJ UK

just thought I would throw in another http://www.katmarsoftware.com/uconeer.htm very easy to use with every conversion I'll ever need

Damn dude, just downloaded and ran your converter program...sweet! Thanks again!

[SysCrusher]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Not giving up.

3) Do you believe that the heat comes up inside the block in a square pattern?

Take a look at this animated GIF:

Hey ben, I got a pic that adds some weight to that animated pic you posted.



A 3mm copper plate. You can see the tarnish area of where the heat spread is. I was using outside tap water, all I got out in the shop, to test with. The mineral saturated water we have here reacts with the copper while heated. Sort of weird. Glad I spent the money on a filtration system for the house. Thicker the plate, the smaller that heat spread pattern gets.

[Kobuchi]

We want the largest number of channels possible, right? And walls no thicker than sheet metal?

Easy. Build it up like an extrusion, as a tube packed with pre-tinned copper foil and soluble spacers. Then slice that sausage into dozens or hundreds of block cores. Sandwich between copper plates and braze. Then wash out the stabilising material with acid.

I believe capacitors are mass produced in a similar way.

[bigben2k]

They don't need to be hair thin, 1mm is quite nice.

The tin here would conduct poorly, greatly affecting the performance.

Nice try though!

[Kobuchi]

You're right the brazed joint isn't the best conductor. But see how radiators are built - that or interference fit. It works, obviously. You just can't pack a lot of thin fins into a confined space without using sheet stock. Most of this thread was about trying to get a solid block of material milled to resemble a bit of origami.

Perhaps this method of building up channels with sheet copper could improve some other block... There are also ways to fold and weld fins so they form a solid bottom without any solder joints.

I hope people consider the possibilities of sheet copper in waterblock core design.

[AngryAlpaca]

Radiators are the brute force approach. A whole bunch of bad joints must be as good as a few good ones. With a WB, you have limited space, and you must get the best performance out of it. With a radiator, you can make it as big as you want.

[bigben2k]

Kobuchi's point still stands: it's an interesting method that can be used to build a block (just not this one).

In that perspective, I'll bring up again, the ideal ratio that Cathar spent so much time figuring out, for the White Water design (only):
fin-to-channel
between
1:1.5
and
1:0.75

An air sink would have a ratio around 1:8 (typically).