Bush or Kerry: slam the US!

[superart]

No, shot by the Iraqis.

Russia had a similar policy during WWII. They would have 2 lines going into battle. A front and a rear. If the front line retreated, the rear line had orders to mowe them down.

It's an effective policy to deter fighters from abandoning their posts for a force that is drasticly less equiped than the opponents. Just like Russia was during WWII, and like the Iraqi insurgency is now.

[Lothar5150]

Here is the real scope regarding the evacuation of the city.
1. Over the last several weeks,
we have dropped leaflets and used loud speakers to announce we are coming in.
2. We gave ALL (men, women and children) residents of Faluajih the opportunity to leave prior to the Iraqi declared state of emergency/martial law.
3. Moreover, we told them that once a state of emergency was in effect male residents of Falujah between 15 and 50 would have to stay indoors
4. Anyone found with a weapon would be assumed an insurgent.
5. If you approach US/Iraqi forces with a weapon, you will be shot.
6. Women and children would still be allowed leave the city during daylight hours of the assault.

The major assumption is that Iraqi insurgents had an opportunity to flee prior to martial law, therefore any men remaining behind where foreign fighters or fanatical BA'ATHIST with no were to go (having family in other towns) FYI we always are willing to take prisoners. It is both a moral/legal obligation and an opportunity to get intelligence on your foe. You would be amazed at the information a cup of coffee and a cigarette can get you.

Superart- if you read some of the wires you’ll see that insurgent snipers are shooing some women trying to leave the city

[superart]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Superart- if you read some of the wires you’ll see that insurgent snipers are shooing some women trying to leave the city

What do they gain by shooting fleeing women? Or do they do it just in case the woman is actually a guy in disguise?

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by superart

What do they gain by shooting fleeing women? Or do they do it just in case the woman is actually a guy in disguise?

If they keep women in the city and some are killed in cross fire, people like Kobuchi will complain about how we kill innocents...it is part of their political effort.

[superart]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

If they keep women in the city and some are killed in cross fire, people like Kobuchi will complain about how we kill innocents...it is part of their political effort.

Ahh.

Makes sense.

[Kobuchi]

It has been said the (all insurgent) Fallujans are not above committing atrocities upon themselves. American generals have knowledge of the Fallujan plan, but, regrettably, may not be able to prevent that plan's horrible execution. Just a heads up.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

If they keep women in the city and some are killed in cross fire, people like Kobuchi will complain about how we kill innocents...it is part of their political effort.

So that explains why the ambulances were systematically sniped at, last time Falluja was besieged. It was a complex deceit involving foreign aid workers subverted to the terrorist cause.

And that Falluja hospital and medical warehouse demolished some days ago, those buildings were first line insurgent units that wavered in combat. Good move US soldiers took over the main hospital and now mingle with the wounded civilians, protecting them from violence. Apparently they captured the position without any resistance. Must be part of some sinister trick.

Ah well. Kerry would have just pulverised Falluja, if there was any truth in his campaign statements. The Bush command takes a more nuanced approach to the terror war. Falluja will pulverise itself.

[BillA]

K
now you are looking like an ass
to be clear, a burro, donkey, or fool

[Lothar5150]

Kobuchi- lets be clear about were we are along the historical time line. Iraqis current government is recognized by all nations, including Canada, as the sovereign government of Iraq. That government is headed Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi who had the final authority for implementation of this operation. The Iraqis asked us to perform a joint operation with forces of the sovereign nation of Iraq, in order to remove foreign fighters from their country, so that they may hold elections in two months.

By the way the hospital that was secured yesterday...that was done by Iraqi Government forces...not US Marines. Look closely at the camouflage pattern, US Marines where the digital pattern like your Canadian troops. In any case it looks like the Iraqis are doing a good job.

[cybrsamurai]

this is interesting. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1106-30.htm

Think its conspiracy theory garbage, voting anomaly, truth, or a little of each?

[mastermind2004]

I'd say mostly conspiracy theory garbage, with a little of anomaly thrown in. I think that the company writing the software should also be blamed, for making it so simple to edit the vote count. All it takes is a little encryption, and things are much harder to edit.
:shrug:

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by unregistered

K
now you are looking like an ass
to be clear, a burro, donkey, or fool

A small price to pay for caring. If you're more comfortable with clever than caring that's not my problem.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Kobuchi- lets be clear about were we are along the historical time line. Iraqis current government is recognized by all nations, including Canada, as the sovereign government of Iraq. That government is headed Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi who had the final authority for implementation of this operation. The Iraqis asked us to perform a joint operation with forces of the sovereign nation of Iraq, in order to remove foreign fighters from their country, so that they may hold elections in two months.

President Laurent Gbagbo is the internationally recognised leader of Ivory Coast. His air force recently ended a 2003 ceasefire with rebels, who hold a large part of the country. Note that Ivory Coast is preparing for elections.The strikes are part of what President Laurent Gbagbo calls an operation to "liberate and reunify" Ivory Coast. Opponents claim the attacks are intended to destabilise the northern region, so it cannot effectively participate in elections.

If President Gbagbo's representative at the UN stands up and asks foreigners to enter the country and help bomb the rebel strongholds, I'll remember your argument, Lothar5150, and where you obviously stand on the issue. One final loop for you: guess what role the French are taking in this one.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

By the way the hospital that was secured yesterday...that was done by Iraqi Government forces...not US Marines. Look closely at the camouflage pattern, US Marines where the digital pattern like your Canadian troops. In any case it looks like the Iraqis are doing a good job.

That's right. The hospital was cut off, and then, meeting no resistance, exile group fighters (Badr Brigades, Kurds, foreign-born Iraqis trained in Hungary compose that commando unit) stormed it.
The US military said Iraqi troops captured 38 people, including four foreigners when they swept into the first objective: Fallujah’s main hospital, which the military and Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said was under insurgent control.

The US military said insurgents had been in control of Fallujah General Hospital – located on the west bank of the Euphrates – and were “forcing the doctors there to release propaganda and false information”.

It underlined in a statement that when hospitals “are used for military purposes they lose … protected status”.
By tending to any injured who enter its doors, and allowing reporters to photograph casualties (e.g. toddlers with limbs blown off - want link?), the hospital had become a valid military target. The US military later clarified they had met little resistance in taking the hospital, and there were no casualties.

"U.S. and Iraqi forces entered Fallujah General Hospital late Sunday night and immediately began an inventory of supplies and medical equipment, said Col. John R. Ballard, commander of the Marine 4th Civil Affairs Group based in Washington, D.C."

"Dr. Al-Issawi told Agence France-Presse that Marines would not let him or other hospital staff move to another facility inside Fallujah in order to be of actual help to the people of the city."

I guess this hospital will only be serving freedom now. Yes or no, Lothar5150?

Look, a valid military target got away: "Sami al-Jumaili, a doctor at the main Fallujah hospital who escaped arrest when it was taken, said the city was running out of medical supplies and only a few clinics remained open.

"There is not a single surgeon in Fallujah. We had one ambulance hit by US fire and a doctor wounded. There are scores of injured civilians in their homes whom we can't move.

"A 13-year-old child just died in my hands," he said by telephone from a house where he had gone to help the wounded."

In many war zones, hospitals are the last refuge for reporters. Allawi does not want reporters on the scene in Fallujah. So, first, destroy all the hospitals:

Newly-built hospital destroyed
One smart bomb for the main building, one for the medical supplies warehouse.

Another: Hospital hit as fighting rages in Falluja
"The clinic's telephones were no longer working.

Al-Dulaimi said the hospital's staff, doctors and patients, have all fallen victim to the assault. He said such fierce bombings have not been witnessed since the Iran-Iraq war.

The US military said it had no immediate information on any attack on the clinic."

I found two fresh valid military targets: "An old cinema has been transformed into a operating room for a public clinic after the general hospital was seized by Iraqi forces on Monday."
and,
"Hazra Mohammadiyah, another makeshift clinic set up inside a mosque in the centre of Fallujah, is slightly more fortunate as it still has one ambulance left to pick up the wounded."
Now tell me, Lothar5150, the cinema and mosque will not be hit with smart bombs sometime soon. You know the reporters are heading there right now - those places must be just churning out the lies and false numbers.

Originally Posted by cybrsamurai

this is interesting. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1106-30.htm

Think its conspiracy theory garbage, voting anomaly, truth, or a little of each?

I don't buy it. If the republican party reflects the Bush administration, then it sticks to (a highly creative interpretation of) the law. Rigging polls has got to be illegal, however you twist it.

[BillA]

clever over a dupe any day, every day

your position of 100% bias is clear,
enjoy

[superart]

wow.

so buildings inside of a warzone tend to get destroyd???.....hmmmmmm....whoda thunkit???........

what a lot of people don't realize is that this is really war. and in war there will be calateral damage. thats just life. we do the best we can to avoid it, but sometimes its just not avoidable. tahts the nature of war. thats life.

i agree that it sucks, but sometimes thats just the way life is.





although, i do think it was kinda dumb of them to do this camaign during ramadan, when every fanatical nutcase and his brother are going apeshit for the opertunity to die in a jihad. that was kinda dumb, but i'm no military expert, i might be wrong.

[cybrsamurai]

Do you guys understand why some people have a problem with the fact that the people that started this war are making money from it?

[BillA]

the military industrial complex has been with us since WWII, with people moving back and forth
this is not a new problem, it is on-going
government draws on this industrial management pool, that's why the blind trusts

of course if you are asserting that the reason for this war was so those people would make money, then I would say you are uninformed

[cybrsamurai]

Bill just wondering what do you think was the real reason for this war?

[Lothar5150]

Kobuchi- You must be an United States born citizen to be president of my country as well. If the laws of the Ivory Coast are the same I would have difficulty being critical of them. Take from that what you will. If they ask for help creating an environment conducive to legitimate elections then I am all for lending it.

The rest of your statements are pure propaganda. Hospitals, churches and Mosques are sacred ground only to the extent that we are not shot at from them. Moreover, the hospitals were being used a propaganda machines...many of the Iraqi doctors are former BA'Athist party members and unlike in the south these people are still loyal to Saddam. The idea of all M.D.'s being do gooders is out the window.....Dr. AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI M.D.

If we are shot at from, the cinema we will take it out…put money on it.

By the way, was the 13 year old fighting or just a bystander...personally I think a 13 year old with a Kalashnikov is more dangerous than a grown man...but that is just my experience talking? Many people west north of the Ivory Coast would agree.

You don’t see the Dems complaining about the fairness of the elections, why should a Canadian like you worry.

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by unregistered

your position of 100% bias is clear

Funny how a citizen of the country knee-deep in war finds those of neutral countries "biased".

I don't deny the regime change was intended to protect the interests of Americans - more so than most for or against it realise. No evil in that.

Originally Posted by unregistered

enjoy

Canada isn't part of the EU. I'm looking at hard times ahead too.

Originally Posted by superart

wow.

so buildings inside of a warzone tend to get destroyd???.....hmmmmmm....whoda thunkit???........

what a lot of people don't realize is that this is really war. and in war there will be calateral damage. thats just life. we do the best we can to avoid it, but sometimes its just not avoidable. tahts the nature of war. thats life.

Try that on the 9/11 families. I can't believe you're so hollow, so I'll forget the comments.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

If they ask for help creating an environment conducive to legitimate elections then I am all for lending it.

The magic words are democracy and freedom, I guess. This explains Chalabi.

You should anticipate news events as the debate proceeds. Otherwise I'll keep lining you up against them: U.S. forces battle way into Fallujah; Sunni clerics urge boycott of elections
"The move against Fallujah prompted influential Sunni Muslim clerics to call for a boycott of national elections set for January. A widespread boycott among Sunnis could wreck the legitimacy of the elections, seen as vital in Iraq's move to democracy. U.S. commanders have said the Fallujah invasion is the centrepiece of an attempt to secure insurgent-held areas so voting can be held. "
One could spin this cause-and-effect 180 degrees, and perpetuate the luxury of blaming dark forces for Iraq's troubles, but that won't help.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Moreover, the hospitals were being used a propaganda machines.

How's that? They tolerated foreign journalists. Better kill just the journalists then. Wouldn't you rather shoot dead a few disobedient CBS cameramen than demolish an entire hospital of Iraqis? Surely this could have been arranged.

Both hospitals destroyed were taken out early and at long range. Missiles/bombs. But sure if snipers were in there this would be a problem eventually. Why do Fallujans think they need to defend their hospitals?

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

You don’t see the Dems complaining about the fairness of the elections, why should a Canadian like you worry.

Why should you think I was worried? I said I have total faith in your people to obey (some interpretation of) law, and don't buy the idea anyone rigged the polls.

Personally, I'd be happier with an insular, benign, straight-talking dictatorship to the south. One that didn't feel compelled to pull stunts impressing voters, and excusing itself to the world for a fresh start every four or eight years. I feel this would fit the American character better. Perhaps your leader could have minor changes of mood over the years.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Try that on the 9/11 families. I can't believe you're so hollow, so I'll forget the comments.

If the building is being used as a military headquarters, it is no longer a hospital. On 9/11, the civilians instead of the world trade centers were the targets. Don't attempt to make a moral equivalence.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

The magic words are democracy and freedom, I guess. This explains Chalabi.

Freedom and democracy are the magic words. However, you don’t have to allow foreign-born people participate in your system. I have only read a little on the problems in the Ivory Coast and to me it sounds like the rebels in the north want to have foreign-born citizens to have the right to run for president. US laws don’t permit this and I personally think it is a good practice.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

You should anticipate news events as the debate proceeds. Otherwise I'll keep lining you up against them: U.S. forces battle way into Fallujah; Sunni clerics urge boycott of elections
"The move against Fallujah prompted influential Sunni Muslim clerics to call for a boycott of national elections set for January. A widespread boycott among Sunnis could wreck the legitimacy of the elections, seen as vital in Iraq's move to democracy. U.S. commanders have said the Fallujah invasion is the centrepiece of an attempt to secure insurgent-held areas so voting can be held. "
One could spin this cause-and-effect 180 degrees, and perpetuate the luxury of blaming dark forces for Iraq's troubles, but that won't help.

For over three months the Iraqi interim government has negotiated to bring the Sunni's in Falujah into the peaceful political process. The only obligation of a democratic election is to provide an opportunity to vote and participate. Individuals may chose not to participate, but that does not make the process illegitimate.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

How's that? They tolerated foreign journalists. Better kill just the journalists then. Wouldn't you rather shoot dead a few disobedient CBS cameramen than demolish an entire hospital of Iraqis? Surely this could have been arranged.

WTF are you smoking

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Both hospitals destroyed were taken out early and at long range. Missiles/bombs. But sure if snipers were in there this would be a problem eventually. Why do Fallujans think they need to defend their hospitals?

I'm sure one of our predators spotted the insurgents building deliberate defensive positions at the hospital. The fact that we used missiles instead of JDAMs suggests there were anti-aircraft guns on the roof. I'm sure the camera footage will show up soon. Look this is an old propaganda trick. Shift the use of a hospital to military use and then call us bad guys when we take it out.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Personally, I'd be happier with an insular, benign, straight-talking dictatorship to the south. One that didn't feel compelled to pull stunts impressing voters, and excusing itself to the world for a fresh start every four or eight years. I feel this would fit the American character better. Perhaps your leader could have minor changes of mood over the years.

Well you got a straight-talking Republic to the south, full of people who don’t bow or scrape to a queen, king or dictator…We are free people down here, I guess you will have to suck it up.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by cybrsamurai

Bill just wondering what do you think was the real reason for this war?

what I think is not relevant to its cause, process, or conclusion
I have not the (flawed) info that was considered in deliberating this war
of course we all have 20/20 hindsight, ain't it wonderful

[cybrsamurai]

BillA I think the problem is alot of us had 20/20 foresight when it came to this war. I personally knew that MWD's and links to Al Qaeda would not be found (on the heels of many experts), it was all too obvious that the intel was biased for a specific reaction. I still have no idea why this war was actually waged (unless for personal gain).

Lothar if we excuse collatoral damage as "thats just life." than the only distinction between our attacks and the terror attacks is the magnitude and intention! I doub't any killed would give a rats ass about the intentions of their murderer.

[BillA]

with your 20/20 foresight and no distinction as to intent, your forecasts should be most polemic
defining all soldiers as murderers is slick, you have a bright future
and of course "Iraqi" resistance is justified, cutting off the heads of non-combatants is clearly no problem having dismissed intent from the equation

your predictions for Iran please
and also for North Korea as your vision alone will be able to keep everyone else out of trouble

there are reasons why you, and those of your mindset, are not defining the course of government
you guys are morally bankrupt (re-read the last paragraph of your post)

[superart]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Try that on the 9/11 families. I can't believe you're so hollow, so I'll forget the comments.

I don't remember anyone declaring war on New York, or dropping flyers warning civilians that an attack is immanent and that they should evacuate.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

The magic words are democracy and freedom, I guess. This explains Chalabi.

You should anticipate news events as the debate proceeds. Otherwise I'll keep lining you up against them: U.S. forces battle way into Fallujah; Sunni clerics urge boycott of elections
"The move against Fallujah prompted influential Sunni Muslim clerics to call for a boycott of national elections set for January. A widespread boycott among Sunnis could wreck the legitimacy of the elections, seen as vital in Iraq's move to democracy. U.S. commanders have said the Fallujah invasion is the centrepiece of an attempt to secure insurgent-held areas so voting can be held. "
One could spin this cause-and-effect 180 degrees, and perpetuate the luxury of blaming dark forces for Iraq's troubles, but that won't help.

How is that not freedom? They will be free to choose weather or not they want to participate in their country's government. If they choose not to participate, that is their choice. They are being given the opportunity. It is up to them if they want to take it or not. Usually less than half of eligible voters in America participate in elections. Does that mean the Americans aren't free to participate in their own government?

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

How's that? They tolerated foreign journalists. Better kill just the journalists then. Wouldn't you rather shoot dead a few disobedient CBS cameramen than demolish an entire hospital of Iraqis? Surely this could have been arranged.

There's a thin line between sarcasm and obscurity. You are no where near it. I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Both hospitals destroyed were taken out early and at long range. Missiles/bombs. But sure if snipers were in there this would be a problem eventually. Why do Fallujans think they need to defend their hospitals?

First and foremost, the vast majority of the fighters are not Fallujans. They are foreigners who entered the country illegally for one reason, and one reason only. They want to fight America. They don't want to free Iraq, they just want to fight America. Iraq just happens to be where America currently is, so thats where they are.

Also, they were not defending the Hospitals, they were using the hospitals as part of their offensive infrastructure. In war, the idea is to make the enemy incapable of fighting by taking out their offensive infrastructure. Thats what we did, now the enemy is less capable of fighting.

They knew that such places would be targets, yet they chose to place them in civilian buildings such as hospitals and clinics. It could be argued that by making such a choice, the insurgents that entered Iraq Illegally destroyed those hospitals, and they used America to do it.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by cybrsamurai

Lothar if we excuse collatoral damage as "thats just life." than the only distinction between our attacks and the terror attacks is the magnitude and intention! I doub't any killed would give a rats ass about the intentions of their murderer.

No one is glib about collateral deaths and please don’t put words in my mouth as you just did above. When we have collateral deaths, people feel very guilty about it. Usually for the rest of their life. However, it is not murder it is an accident. Yes intent matters, if someone runs in front of your car and you kill him or her that is an accident not murder.

With regard to the present operation in Falujah, 75% of the population had the good sense to leave when we gave them a chance. Good people who care about their families take every opportunity to keep them safe. Odds are that most remaining people are looters or shooters.

[cybrsamurai]

Bill don’t give me that BS everyone knew that the intel was crap it barely even took an ounce of analytical thinking to know that one. It was known that there was a strong push from the administration to release biased intel. Could it have been any more obvious?

BillA every time I engage you in a conversation you skirt the issue and go strait to your supposed moral superiority and put me down. It's a shame that you are incapable of having a discussion without putting someone down. Does it make you feel better to put me down or is that the only way you know how to discuss something?

As to your alluding to my decision that sick forms of Iraqi resistance are justified; where the hell did you get that idea? Point out in my statement where I said that killing anyone is oK?

Morally bankrupt huh...
If calling a terrorist a murderer is wrong than fine. If calling a person/soldier that kills a non combatant a murderer is wrong than fine. I am glad to be wrong in a world with your definitions of right and wrong.

Thank god for the bastion of self rightous christians that are saving our country from people like me.