Additives & Coolants

[BillA]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

environmental friendliness and no toxicity to children/pets are the benefits; not performance. But I worry about long term stability of anodized parts in my system a lot more than I worry about biologicals...

but the relative concentration needs to be considered also
HydrX is 5% ethylene glycol, which is then diluted 17:1 as the WCing coolant mixture

and apart from what we may like, commercial avaliability is a factor as well

[pHaestus]

I get it from fisher at work because I'd rather not have to pay for disposal of the ethylene glycol. It comes quite concentrated and we just dilute it. If you're diluting to less than 1% (as with HydrX) then a little goes a long way

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by unregistered

ah, recycling
put a piece of burnt oak in the res

Hey! Alcoholic beverages aged in burnt oak go into me - not my PC
Speaking of aging in various woods, if you haven't already, check out the Glenmorangie aged in either sherry barrels or in port tubes. A very drinkable single-malt...

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I haven't ever experienced one with new parts.

I haven't either, but I've never run non-distilled water or without some sort of anti-corrosion package, or with the water exposed to any kind of light.
It sounds like some of the folks who have had problems have been just as conservative, though - so maybe there's something else I'm doing right...(?) and maybe it's just my "black thumb" in action - I don't generally have good luck with plants that I want to grow...

[Jag]

Bill or someone else, have you tried RabidMoose sugestions on this thread (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...hlight=algae)?

[EMC2]

most common corrosion inhibitor: dipotassium phosphate

if you're really concerned about algae: copper sulphate (can be purchased commercially as aquarium treatment solutions and there's a pool/spa mix as well). Low concentration!!! (1ppm)

bobkoure, no light helps greatly

Bill, agree on the distilled water rant, but that alone isn't a solution... ask someone that deals with water cooling klystron tubes and the like.

[Marci]

I asked Marci to more clearly state how he sees the 'problem'

My problem as such was more directly related to companies advertising additives as being for Anti-Algae purposes, such as the Asetek product, when that is merely a co-incidental after-effect rather than the purpose of the additive in question (especially if it is just plain old WaterWetter in their bottles). I'd rather not make a claim that an additive will control algae and fungal growth if it doesn't explicitly say so in that additives data sheet etc as that can lie you up for being done for false advertising, or later down the line just a flaming along the lines of "you said this would prevent fungi / algae and it clearly doesn't as I have fungi / algae in my rig" from the n00b watercoolers who shouldn't own watercooling gear due to lack of IQ (*ducks just in case*)

Reason it took me so long was, I was trying to work out what exactly the problem was and why I had posted this topic, and that's more or less it.... is it valid to advertise a product for it's anti-algae properties when realistically it doesn't have any, it's just a side effect of the pH buffer... or would it be better to state "may help control algae etc due to contained pH buffers, but in some conditions an additional biocide may be necessary - available here" then link `em to the ACBlue...

It's more a matter of protecting ourselves from snotty customers in the wording of things I think, and if we were to make a biocide available, I wanted to be sure it wouldn't detriment things further when mixed with any other additives in the system....

More a marketing issue (?) or an issue caused by incorrect / negligent marketing than a clearly defined and occuring problem in need of solution...

sorry, I will not be concerned with users that ignorant/stupid

Sadly my job makes that a necessity!!

[pHaestus]

EMC2: Adding phosphate to a cooling loop is probably a bad idea from a biological perspective. Phosphorus is one of the limiting nutrients in most waters. In fact most growth media for bacteria are basically phosphate buffers with a food source and a terminal electron acceptor.

[Marci]

Just FYI, ACBlue (the biocide I was considering) = copper sulphate afaik

[Marci]

unregistered - can't PM u (on an unrelated subject) as yer inbox is full at the mo

[pHaestus]

copper sulfate should work pretty well but mixing it with any sort of antifreeze will most likely render it useless

[Marci]

So in a rig containing just distilled, a racing coolant (waterwetter / zerex / purple ice) and poss UV Dye it would be OK (the most common combination amongst retail users over here)?

*duh* daft question I know as none of the additives fall into the antifreeze bracket, but want to be 100% sure....

[pHaestus]

I don't know for sure Marci. Water Wetter is slightly alkaline and so you will precipitate out Cu(OH)2 if the copper sulfate levels get too high. I doubt anyone is adding anywhere near that much though (it comes from a dilute solution to start with correct?). So most likely no problem there. I'd have to look up the copper silicate stability constants but my guess is that they'd be ok.

The big potential issue is complexation with organics in the other additives. I don't have any idea what organic acids are in those additives. Even the additive that colors them may react with copper to make a copper-organic acid complex that will keep copper from being effective as a biocide. This is what happens to copper in the environment (which is good because Cu2+ is so toxic to aquatic life):

[Marci]

it comes from a dilute solution to start with correct?

Take it your asking about the ACBlue there - not sure yet - bottle of it should have arrived today but hasn't so far... it is liquid form afaik, and manufacturer recommended 1ml:1litre of ACBlue:Coolant

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Marci

My problem as such was more directly related to companies advertising additives as being for Anti-Algae purposes, such as the Asetek product, when that is merely a co-incidental after-effect rather than the purpose of the additive in question (especially if it is just plain old WaterWetter in their bottles). I'd rather not make a claim that an additive will control algae and fungal growth if it doesn't explicitly say so in that additives data sheet etc as that can lie you up for being done for false advertising, or later down the line just a flaming along the lines of "you said this would prevent fungi / algae and it clearly doesn't as I have fungi / algae in my rig" from the n00b watercoolers who shouldn't own watercooling gear due to lack of IQ (*ducks just in case*)

Reason it took me so long was, I was trying to work out what exactly the problem was and why I had posted this topic, and that's more or less it.... is it valid to advertise a product for it's anti-algae properties when realistically it doesn't have any, it's just a side effect of the pH buffer... or would it be better to state "may help control algae etc due to contained pH buffers, but in some conditions an additional biocide may be necessary - available here" then link `em to the ACBlue...

It's more a matter of protecting ourselves from snotty customers in the wording of things I think, and if we were to make a biocide available, I wanted to be sure it wouldn't detriment things further when mixed with any other additives in the system....

More a marketing issue (?) or an issue caused by incorrect / negligent marketing than a clearly defined and occurring problem in need of solution...



Sadly my job makes that a necessity!!

I think we have 3 questions at hand:
How to 'correctly' represent additives which have algaecide properties ?
and
How to preclude the growth of algae ?
and
How to reduce/eliminate the 'flocking' of excessive/incompatible additives ?

this should keep us going a while

how to represent ? just say what it is and what it does (if it 'incidentally' inhibits the growth of algae, just say that - no ?)

[Cathar]

I played around with copper sulphate. It worked well except for two issues:

1) It attacks and eats nickel. All my barbs are bright nickel plated, but it didn't take long for them to turn into a rusted metal appearance due to the copper sulphate.

2) The solution in water is highly electrically conductive. I've spilled water plenty of times over the internals of my computer. Never had a problem after a quick dry in the sun. With the copper sulphate solution a spill took out my CPU, and my motherboard, and nearly claimed the video card as well.

[BillA]

interesting info Cathar
I'm not sure that the described trade off is advantageous
a good argument for Fluid Xp in fact

[pHaestus]

It'll eat up zinc even faster than nickel. I've replaced the Zn in ZnSe with Cu2+ in seconds on the surface of very expensive optical crystals by mistake

[EMC2]

Cathar, how high of a concentration were you using, and what was the approximate pH of the water? (and did you rinse after the spill before drying, or just dry as is?)

Speaking of pH... pHaestus, true for phosphate in sufficient levels, none the less, it is one of the more common corrosion inhibitors used in commercial products.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by EMC2

Cathar, how high of a concentration were you using, and what was the approximate pH of the water? (and did you rinse after the spill before drying, or just dry as is?)

Would not have been much more than 2% concentration.

I did not measure the pH.

The board was rinsed with fresh clean water for a while before drying.

[Marci]

I think we have 3 questions at hand:
How to 'correctly' represent additives which have algaecide properties ?
and
How to preclude the growth of algae ?
and
How to reduce/eliminate the 'flocking' of excessive/incompatible additives ?

this should keep us going a while

how to represent ? just say what it is and what it does (if it 'incidentally' inhibits the growth of algae, just say that - no ?)

Agree, agree, agree.... and..... agree.

Received the ACBlue today.... here's data from European Product Safety Sheet.

Composition & Classification of Ingredients:
Water 80 - 60%
Copper Sulphate Penthydrate CAS# 7758-99-8 10 10 - 24% XnR22 N
R50/53
Sulphuric Acid CAS# 7664-93-9 5 - 10% C R35

Hazard Identification:
Contains 5.8% sulphuric acid. Reacts with strong bases, reducing agents and excessive heat to produce sulphuric acid fumes.

Physical Properties
Form @ 25 deg C - Liquid, miscible with water
Odour - Mild Odour
pH - < 1.0
Appearacne - Clear Blue Liquid
Boiling Point - 104 deg C
Specific Gravity @ 25 deg C - 1.20
Vapour Pressure @ 20 Deg C - 0.1mm Hg
Solubility in water - Complete

Stability
Avoid - Contact with strong bases, reducing agents, and excessive heat
Hazardous Decomposition - May react with some metals to produce Hydrogen Gas


Toxicology
Oral LD50 - 1570mg/Kg
Dermal Irritation - Toxic Cat III
Ocular Irritation - Not tested

Ecologicology
Biodegradability - Not tested
Ecotoxicity - Toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long term adverse effects in aquatic environment. Non-toxic at normal use levels (1:1000 ACBlue:Coolant)

Disposal
Chemical - Neutralise with Bicarbonate of Soda or Fertiliser Grade Lime. Dispose as fertiliser grade material
Drum - Wash thoroughly and offer for recycling

Transportation
UN No - 3264
Class - 8
PG - III
Shipping Name - Corrosive Liquid, Acidic, Inorganic, Nos (cont SulphAcid)

Regulatory
Label Name - Algitec
Symbols - Xi, N
Risk - R36/38, R51, R53
Safety - S1/2, S26, S45

I played around with copper sulphate. It worked well except for two issues:

1) It attacks and eats nickel. All my barbs are bright nickel plated, but it didn't take long for them to turn into a rusted metal appearance due to the copper sulphate.

Hmmmm.... not a good start, altho most of our kits ship with the (dreadful) Blue TEFEN barbs with the lousy ID which wouldn't be affected ( ? ) we were planning on getting in large stocks of chrome plated and nickel plated polished barbs for use with the new radiators & reservoirs...

2) The solution in water is highly electrically conductive. I've spilled water plenty of times over the internals of my computer. Never had a problem after a quick dry in the sun. With the copper sulphate solution a spill took out my CPU, and my motherboard, and nearly claimed the video card as well.

And again not a good start.... but that's in terms of practicality - ie: How likely is a n00b to drown their rig, and how likely are they to have read any precautionary notes before purchasing the biocide....? Very and Not Very.... foresee lots of dead hardware here!

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Marci

... we were planning on getting in large stocks of chrome plated and nickel plated polished barbs for use with the new radiators & reservoirs...

Probably not a help as it's non-bling, but give the fittings from Eldon James a look. The thread-to-barb adapters (the ones I've looked at anyway) have a relatively large ID, no corrosion problem, and the single-barb feature they promote appears to work very well with the very-soft silicone tubing I've been using. Oh - and (back on topic) they don't corrode.
It might be at least worth filling out the samples request.

As a BTW, I originally got started with these because I wanted fittings that were softer than the material with female threads. The thought being that if I stupidly over torque things, I'm out a fitting, not a cracked housing.

These of course fix nothing when it comes to what happens when coolant gets spilled onto electronics... maybe vodka really is the best solution, although I wonder how quickly the alcohol would migrate out through the tubing walls.

[Marci]

Have requested a catalog from them..... cheers!

[bobkoure]

re:minimotosidecars - have been on the minis in the pits (not on-track) but never saw a rig with these. Looks interesting - sort of like a cart, but kneeling (maybe two people?) and the odd handling that comes with a rig? Or are they not kneelers - and how do you fit if that's the case?
Did one race as the "monkey" on an off-road rig (hare and hounds). Broke a clavicle. I think I got off light... Trees are hard. This was in '74 or so - don't even have the lump anymore, where the bone knit. So much for long term souvenirs, I guess...

[Marci]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

re:minimotosidecars - have been on the minis in the pits (not on-track) but never saw a rig with these. Looks interesting - sort of like a cart, but kneeling (maybe two people?) and the odd handling that comes with a rig? Or are they not kneelers - and how do you fit if that's the case?
Did one race as the "monkey" on an off-road rig (hare and hounds). Broke a clavicle. I think I got off light... Trees are hard. This was in '74 or so - don't even have the lump anymore, where the bone knit. So much for long term souvenirs, I guess...

Custom Chassis with 80cc 2 stroke or 125cc 4 stroke roadbike (must be roadbike) engine mounted in front of driver, just behind front wheel. Driver is effectively down on all fours with shins supported by cruved pegs, gear change is a linkage that gives gear shift to right foot by placing in a "toecup" and kicking up to go down the gears, and down to go up the gears (Linkage moves gearshift from LHSide to RHSide hence the reversal of gear changing from regular road bike).

Passenger has roughly a 60cm x 70cm bit of chassis to plonk yerself on as best possible, generally down on right knee and left foot.... hand grip behind driver for passengers right hand. Hand grips positioned round chassis as appropriate for them to be able to hangout the side and drag ass cheek on the floor at 70mph in lefthanders, and throw yerself right up and over the top, lying over the rear of the driver and grabbing a handgrip down by his right foot. If passenger doesn't move in direction of bend, the bike don't go in the direction of the bend either and continues in straight line.... has "steering" but due to size etc will always understeer. Basically undriveable without passenger, who has to not only provide a pivotal weight to cause the bike to steer, but has to be over whichever wheel is required to gain traction or brake (lean to the front to dig sidecar nose into tarmac to slow, put weight over rear wheel for better traction on take off....)

Average 80ish mph down the straights.

Have a read thru techdocs that explain chassis construction and dimensions etc, and have a watch of the videos in the downloads section fella! (More coming when season starts back up in April)

US Sidecars are still based on fixed gear minibike engines, whereas everyone over here got bored of those and wanted geared speed demons... hence roadbike engines.