Frontal area rules?

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

I'm aware of the fact that ethanol has been in use for a very long time. I'm just saying that it hasn't been used properly. A fuel with such a high octane rating is going to need a lot of oxygen for proper combustion. Normally aspirated engines are not capable of this. Any engine with a pressure boost will increase the amount of air (and therefore oxygen) and thus be more efficient with higher octane fuels. ....

I've used it as race fuel.
It actually carries less energy per pound, but you can run at a higher compression ratio, which makes an internal combustion engine more efficient (a major reason why diesels are so fuel efficient).
So... running some kind of boost does make alcohol work better as a fuel, but it's not a matter of needing more O2 so much as raising your effective compression ratio (running boost increases your effective displacement as well).
There were some amazing motorcycle engines built to use boost,(IMHO the most interesting one was the AJS "Roarer") but they pretty much fell by the wayside when the technology was banned after WWII (mostly an issue with the tire technology of the day not being up to the amazing-for-then power produced).

As a side issue, an engine fire, when using alcohol, is a very scary thing (I've only experienced two) - but it's probably minor compared to what a hydrogen fire would be...

[Tempus]

IIRC, Octane is just a measure of the branch chain hydrocarbon isomers. I can't remember the formula for it though.

Higher octane ratings just mean that there are literally a higher % of the octane isomers and opposed to the other thing (heptene?) which is still flamable as all hell but tends to explode (engine knock) early and easily.

[Brians256]

BTW, I would guess that the $40/gal estimate for ethanol is based upon no change in method for producing the ethanol. If we come up with a more practical method of producing ethanol... things could be better. One great advance would be producing ethanol from standard unprocessed cellulose stocks (i.e. waste vegetative material) instead of high-sugar materials such as corn. There are some papers that detail such an approach by using special bacteria, but I haven't seen any commercial success yet.

We can always hope.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Brians256

BTW, I would guess that the $40/gal estimate for ethanol is based upon no change in method for producing the ethanol. If we come up with a more practical method of producing ethanol... things could be better. One great advance would be producing ethanol from standard unprocessed cellulose stocks (i.e. waste vegetative material) instead of high-sugar materials such as corn. There are some papers that detail such an approach by using special bacteria, but I haven't seen any commercial success yet.

We can always hope.

That is what I have been told by people that are in the fuel business. Get to talk to alot of them in my line of work. What that is based on I am not sure. I can see why it makes since though. They would have to come up with something that is out of todays tech reach.

Probably easier to make electric or hydrogen take over.

[maxSaleen]

Wow. I feel a bit of a draft in my pants. Oh, my dumbass mind left the fly down. I apologize for seemingly dogmatic explanation why ehtanol is a better fuel. Since you are in the buisness of building gas stations, JD, do you think we will ever have a hydrogen economy? Or does the necessitated storage pressure of hydrogen make this non feasible?

Gosh it would be funny to watch a fender bender blow up a city block. Just one of the possibilities of storing hydrogen gas under extreme pressures

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

Wow. I feel a bit of a draft in my pants. Oh, my dumbass mind left the fly down. I apologize for seemingly dogmatic explanation why ehtanol is a better fuel. Since you are in the buisness of building gas stations, JD, do you think we will ever have a hydrogen economy? Or does the necessitated storage pressure of hydrogen make this non feasible?

Gosh it would be funny to watch a fender bender blow up a city block. Just one of the possibilities of storing hydrogen gas under extreme pressures

It was an interesting conversation. Probably got more attention than normal due to lack of anything else worth talking about going on around here.

I think Hydrogen has to take over sooner or later. Ethonal is certainly a good mid way before Hydrogen. Hydrogen power has enormous potential if they can get a hyandle on it. A car powerd by it could not only power the car itself but also anything else that uses power.

They are estimating oil to dry up around 2060. Every year between now and then oil prices will rise.

Something has to give sooner or later.

[maxSaleen]

One of the big problems with hydrogen is that it is only an energy currency, not an energy source. We need to establish wind, solar, and tidal energy if we want to continue as a species.

"Every year between now and then oil prices will rise"

Taking over the middle east would ease this. When you think about it, it's not that hard. All you have to do is eliminate the extremists and give everyone else blue jeans, clean water, and some sort of an economy in which unemployment is around %25 instead of %75. Simple. Right? Can't believe the people on capital hill didn't think of it :P

Your correct though, JD. Supply and demand dictates that as a finite resource is depleted, the cost of said resource must rise if demand remains constant.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

...cost of said resource must rise if demand remains constant.

Actually, given what's going on in mainland China, the demand's going to continue to increase.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

One of the big problems with hydrogen is that it is only an energy currency, not an energy source. We need to establish wind, solar, and tidal energy if we want to continue as a species.

Have a read http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...uelcells_x.htm

"Every year between now and then oil prices will rise"

Taking over the middle east would ease this. When you think about it, it's not that hard. All you have to do is eliminate the extremists and give everyone else blue jeans, clean water, and some sort of an economy in which unemployment is around %25 instead of %75. Simple. Right? Can't believe the people on capital hill didn't think of it :P

Dosn't really matter in the end. Oil will dry up sooner or later. If China and India keep exploding then sooner it will be...

Your correct though, JD. Supply and demand dictates that as a finite resource is depleted, the cost of said resource must rise if demand remains constant.

Problem is it isn't constant but rising considerably. http://stlouisfed.org/publications/i...ead_story.html

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by Tempus

IIRC, Octane is just a measure of the branch chain hydrocarbon isomers. I can't remember the formula for it though.

Higher octane ratings just mean that there are literally a higher % of the octane isomers and opposed to the other thing (heptene?) which is still flamable as all hell but tends to explode (engine knock) early and easily.

Pretty much. Octane rating doesn't actually measure octane content it rates a fuel's ability to withstand compression without knocking relative to an octane/heptane mixture. 0 is the equivalent of burning pure heptane. 100 is the equivalent of burning pure octane. This is how you can get octane ratings above 100. Confusingly there are also two octane scales (RON and MON), and it's not always abovious which is used. Europe, Australia and most other countries display the "RON" octane rating on pumps while the US and Canada use the average of the two (also called DON). This means the same fuel in the US would have a rating on the pump about 5 points lower than in Europe or Australia.