Watercooling present and future status...

[bobo5195]

.1%, 1 in 1000? that high! Considering corperate machines and such maybe 0.001%?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bobo5195

.1%, 1 in 1000? that high! Considering corperate machines and such maybe 0.001%?

Holy shit. Got my numbers all ****ed up. Let's make this a little more scientific. Let's use these numbers ( http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0305.htm) and round it off to 223million PC's used in the USA. How many are water cooled? .001% would be 223,000 right? Still on the high side I would suspect but will go with it. My real guess would be half of that however.

[Eddy_EK]

Originally Posted by bobo5195

.1%, 1 in 1000? that high! Considering corperate machines and such maybe 0.001%?

Uf... You got to be kidding me?
1 in a 1000? uf...
I trought about 1%... 1 in a 100...
:shrug:

[bobo5195]

well there is the apple g5 tower, that would be a large proportion of that 0.001% even. I would surprised if there were more than 100,000 DIY wc pcs in the world

[BillA]

100k ?
but remember, each inst has over time - 3 pumps, 2 wbs, etc.
the revision rate for many users is substantial as they learn the pitfalls of marketing talk, and what works
I believe most $99 kits are soon discarded, the system cost is quite related to longevity

[Marci]

Indeed, sales reflect the majority who buy a "kit" are repeat customers over the following 2 yrs gradually replacing more or less everything from that kit. Or move straight to phsechange. After 2 yrs tho a high percentage tend to get bored, settle back to aircooling / shuttle and move onto a new interest / hobby.

[BillA]

Marci, quite agree
after the new wears off the maint becomes a chore if not to 'upgrade'

WCing as we know it is a dead end; too much plumbing and too much maintenance (a chore to install and then unreliable)

bk
is the 'low noise' of WCing worth the effort/maint ?

[HAL-9000]

I think watercooling is pretty hard to justify unless you are a bona fide enthusiast for it. The ultimate strength of watecooling, it's heat capacity, isn't employed very well in this application really. The temperatures you get are good, but not substantially better than, say, a Thermalright XP-120.

Overclocking used to be a good justification for watercooling in the Celeron days, when such cooling techniques could reliably let you run your processor a good ~50% in some cases over the rated speed. However the returns aren't quite so good anymore, ten percent is more the norm, and phase changers even don't boost you usually more than %25 with a good processor sample. This makes the cost and time for an exotic cooling setup of any kind more acute relative to the benefits. All the more so when you consider most performance bumps enthusiast users see come more from the vidcard than the CPU anymore.

I think the best niche for watercooling isn't lower temps per se, but temperature stability over a wider range of CPU loads than any other solution. If you want cold, run phase change. If you want cheap, air. If you want quiet stability, under any load condition, get a good WC system. The best watercooling I think isn't the "coldest" anymore per se, but practicality and reliability (and from a frank market perspective, cosmetics) are the most important attributes to a successful commercial WC setup offering.

[Eddy_EK]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

I think the best niche for watercooling isn't lower temps per se, but temperature stability over a wider range of CPU loads than any other solution. If you want cold, run phase change. If you want cheap, air. If you want quiet stability, under any load condition, get a good WC system. The best watercooling I think isn't the "coldest" anymore per se, but practicality and reliability (and from a frank market perspective, cosmetics) are the most important attributes to a successful commercial WC setup offering.

Interesting thought!
I also think that we should do more on the reliability. So the pumps are here the weekest link and of course the leaking...
What do you think of closed WCing systems. That you don't need to fill in the liquid ever. That would be of course for WCing noobs.

PS: In every aspect I do not mean anyhing like thermaltake quality and performance.

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by Eddy_EK

Interesting thought!
I also think that we should do more on the reliability. So the pumps are here the weekest link and of course the leaking...
What do you think of closed WCing systems. That you don't need to fill in the liquid ever. That would be of course for WCing noobs.

PS: In every aspect I do not mean anyhing like thermaltake quality and performance.

Well, if you want mass-market, or to increase WC share beyond .001 and so forth, you're going to go after noobs. I think the Coolermaster closed loop system isn't that bad in the context that the pump is integrated into the housing of the waterblock. That essentially cuts the tubing and connection requirments in half, which is going to increase reliability, at least in quality control on a manufacturing line.

Closed loop, in perpetuity without maintenance, would be hard I think. In the Apple G5 solution, it would appear that they used I believe brazed metal tubing and such. Plastic and barbs just are not going to keep the water in over a really long time (system lifetime). Apple had the benefit of designing the solution, they knew where everything was going to go. Selling an aftermarket solution would be difficult in that context. An interesting problem is what materials you would use to make a really good seal, yet still be flexible.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

...
I think the best niche for watercooling isn't lower temps per se, but temperature stability over a wider range of CPU loads than any other solution. If you want cold, run phase change. If you want cheap, air. If you want quiet stability, under any load condition, get a good WC system. The best watercooling I think isn't the "coldest" anymore per se, but practicality and reliability (and from a frank market perspective, cosmetics) are the most important attributes to a successful commercial WC setup offering.

Agreed, 100%.

I don't care for the esthetics part, but the (electrical) energy used in watercooling is disproportionately high, compared to other solutions, to dissipate a variable heatload.

There are plenty of opportunities for refinement, now that (I believe) we've maxxed out the water block part of it: there's already a manufacturer out there with a variable speed pump, tied (by software) to the mobo.

[Brians256]

Ben, watercooling is a nice middle ground between air and peltier or phase change. Twenty watts of power for the pump and fans is far better than the hundreds of watts used for peltier or HVAC. So, I wouldn't call watercooling disproportionately high.

If you want efficiency, go for heat pipes to a passive radiator. But, it is far harder to get great temps that way.

Edit: I wouldn't argue against higher efficiency in watercooling though. There are plenty of gains to be had in variable speed motors for the pump and fans. But, that's not really part of the core demographic (yet?).

[Etacovda]

mm, its a hard ask really.

For me, the ideal set up would be one that included everything, including a small seperate compartment case - so, you'd have the watercooling built in (ala koolance or similar, but done better), a case which is as small as possible whilst still retaining enough functionality to move parts etc, in as small a footprint as possible. Think slightly bigger (but flatter) than a shuttle, and near silent; almost a desktop/shuttle hybrid. Include decent quiet fans, heatsinks for passive nb cooling and the likes, perhaps ram sinks etc. Folding CD bays, sliding HDD racks, for a complete, simple disassembly. Electronics control water temperature and the likes via pump and fan voltage adjustment.

Its all a pipe dream, really, but it could be done i think.

[Marci]

The only thing stopping it being done is lack of a suitable case. Everything else is doable. MountainMods seem to be on the way there with the BobSlay... they just need to make one out of metal instead of acrylic...

[JSimmons]

In order for watercooling to go mainstream, the package would have to be simple to install, take up very little space, and require *no maintenance on the part of the user*.

That last part is the most important.

[Marci]

bk
is the 'low noise' of WCing worth the effort/maint ?

If the selection of quality silent aircoolers / heatpipes doesn't do the job in the individuals scenario, then yes... def worth the effort / maintenance... (ie: if no other choice) - but I would say that - I'm a retailer / manuf of the stuff...

Depends on definition of maintenance - top up water / dust out rads. That's about it. That's down to convenience of location within case... DD Fillport nails the "topupwater" issue imo as long as visual indicator is available for water level.

Is dusting rads really an issue vs. dusting heatsinks? Stop fans... Can of compressed air from rear.... squirt. Start fans. Simple enough.

I only really see one additional maintenance step over air. The main problem is in the initial installation where tubing has to be manually connected by end-user. This is watercooling's downfall. If it's a "good" kit / DIY setup, then guaranteed you have to manually make the connections. If it's a mass-market commercial setup like CoolerMaster or similar, majority connections are already made. Just fill.

Long n short, end-user is scared of anything they must be responsible for, and they're responsible for making the connections.

[Ruiner]

Choice of cooling also depends on platform choice. The thermals of current E revision K8's are awesome, at least compared to Prescott. I don't have direct experience, but I'd think one of the big 120mm fan Heatpipe coolers should be able to tackle even a moderately overclocked/overvolted E6 quietly, assuming decent case design. I haven't worked with any dual cores yet, but watercooling makes more sense there.

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by JSimmons

In order for watercooling to go mainstream, the package would have to be simple to install, take up very little space, and require *no maintenance on the part of the user*.

That last part is the most important.

well, apple have managed. It honestly cant be that difficult - it only becomes hard when bling is applied to the situation. Use hard lined tubing which doesnt allow (much if any) water evap through the tubing. Use a soldered copper block, and a decent pump + radiator. Have the connections pre-done in the case with everything in there waiting for an install. No harder than air cooling, realistically - but hey, even idiots get air wrong, so you have to cater for the lowest common denominator.

Course, the bonus with apple is the outlets internationally and the warrantee and repairs...

The ideal case/water set up would have a w/c'ed psu integrated as well; It cant be that hard to integrate high performance with small space and low noise - its just clever use of space, really. I havent seen a case yet that i would describe as designed 'right' - the p180 is the closest, i guess. Oh for a decent sheetmetal shop... next year I'll have access to one though

[Marci]

Ah but there's the flaw. Watercooling is found in the G5 due to necessity. Everyday folks adding watercooling to their PC rarely NEED it, they want it for it's looks and for the perk of being able to say "i've got watercooling" and "mine's better than yours" to aircooled folks.

Reason for PSU not being watercooled? Has to be done to a certified standard if it's gonna be sold within the EU generally. S'illegal in the UK for anyone to open and modify (read: change the internal fuse), close and sell a PSU. In fact, it's illegal for anyone other than the manufacturer to do it as the relevant certification etc must be applied to the unit by the manufacturer. Or summat like that anyways. Some sites risk it, but if it ever came down to it, and accident occured due to water + psu, the company selling that PSU would be responsible / liable. So, restricted market to begin with means few will put the effort into releasing the product. S'just too potentially high risk...

[Etacovda]

mm, yep. This is true - considered editing after i posted it, is a bit of a waste of time really a better solution would be a partially passive psu (i think the antec phantom works this way) with a fan that kicks in under heavy load.

"Ah but there's the flaw. Watercooling is found in the G5 due to necessity." yep. Was more meaning it as 'its possible to do it with an acceptable failure rate' rather than the actual reasons they did so.

I guess im not your standard high end watercooler, i really couldnt give a rats arse about the last 50mhz, because realistically you're not going to notice it at all in anything you do.

Im more into it for the silence POV, than anything - the nice part about water is the silencing ability without having to compromise like most quiet aircooling set ups.

[Eddy_EK]

I am working on my graduation thesis and my mentor would deffenately want some numbers.
So could someone estimate, or has some links to some articles that has datas: How many computers are watercooled in your country?

I have found article about number of computers here .

Thanks for your help!

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Eddy_EK

I am working on my graduation thesis and my mentor would deffenately want some numbers.
So could someone estimate, or has some links to some articles that has datas: How many computers are watercooled in your country?

I have found article about number of computers here .

Thanks for your help!

Good luck.

[Etacovda]

anything posted ANYWHERE is pure speculation. I wouldnt get too worried about it - if you want numbers, try emailing a company like dangerden, perhaps...

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

anything posted ANYWHERE is pure speculation. I wouldnt get too worried about it - if you want numbers, try emailing a company like dangerden, perhaps...

Even still all DD can tell you is how many blocks they sold which they probably won't. Especially to competition. How many DIY'ers are out there? Probably a fair chunck of water cooler comps. Enough to make any stats useless.

[superart]

what are you trying to get your phd in?