Well! There is a third way!

[Marci]

There's a much simpler way to view the Cathar thang.... he bought an R1. Nuff said. Know what I'd rather be doing in my free time...

[BillA]

and I, but one leg is already 1/2" shorter from my first head-on
and my Trident scared the hell out of me
no balls for it

BTW, Cathar's description of centripetal force was excellent

[Marci]

He'll be back when summer ends... assuming he's the stereotypical sportsbike rider... personally, come snow, sleet or rain... I'm out on the bike (or would be if could afford tyres - circumstances rather shoddy at the moment)

[gmat]

IMHO it's because Procooling never went to such lows as [H] or similar teenage / low attention span oriented sites, that it still remains small and focused. The day Joe starts writing good things about OCZ or Thermaltake, i know he's sold his soul to the devil... (or good for a serious crack desintoxication).
Also the interest in DIY (and casemods) has waned, the fault lies in a fast growing industry that gives either "pre-modded" or "good enough" products to the public. The amount of work you had to perform on a case 6 years ago in order to make it suitable for extreme performance / WCing / whatever was large enough to allow a lot of creativity. Which means people got to solve all problems in depth, add this the non-existant WCing industry... Now people get all their stuff served on a silver platter, pre-modded cases, even with bling (for those who like it), a real WCing industry with lobotomizing marketing tactics, i dont see a reason for the majority to go one step beyond and take an engineering approach. And even for those who start to ask a few questions, the first places they visit give them spoon-fed answers (not always bad ones, even) so they have no need for active thinking. Which is what this place does, but like said before in computer WCing most has been said and done, and now it's more a question of marketing and practicality.
I still see some challenges in watercooling, for instance silent computing (with watercooling, not the general approach taken on SPCR), SFF & media center cooling for instance. Another example the passive radiator approach has never been pushed to a hardcore level, exept for a few (and poorly executed) attempts.
On a bright note i know more people that went to watercooling, mainly because of noise concerns, and thus came to SPCR and here to get information. They're not really concerned about a CPU temp difference of 2°C but more about having a coherent solution to their problem. This is a new approach, and currently i dont see any mfger really trying a grab at this potential market ?

[BillA]

gmat
for my ENTIRE stint at Swiftech (from 2003) I argued to build a passive cooling system
Gabe forbade it, I could not get even $600 (my development estimate)
no vision, no progress

look at the success of Zalman, focused on 1 parameter
Alienware is a company who could do so effectively

[pHaestus]

OK I am gonna chime in here with my thoughts and perhaps some optimism?

I think that if I were to start posting technical content that Les, Cathar, Bill, and co would all come out of the woodwork and the site's tech discussion would revive. I feel a little guilty for having avoided doing so.

But my hangup is that I really don't think that the testing people expect me to do is actually needed or justified. My honest opinion is that any commercial wb you pick up now is going to perform well enough that it is not the limiting factor in your cooling loop. So mounting simplicity, looks, personal preference (brand identity) and cost become the major deciding factors. It has been that way for a while. Also the waterblock designers are slowing waaay down as well. I haven't tested a waterblock in over a year, and I think I missed 2 products in that time that are of note: The cooltechnica wbs and the Swiftech Apogee.

So what I think is really needed is something quite different from high tech water cooling component testing. What people really need (when I say people I mean enthusiasts in general and not just Procooling regulars) are guides on how to best mix and match components for their needs. A well-written article that compared all of the different reservoir/filling solutions and loop placement of them would be more USEFUL than 100 more waterblock reviews. A series of reviews of commercial cooling systems and the resulting airflow/cooling in a test system would also be more useful. That old "euro vs. US cooling system contest" if it had happened was a step in the correct direction compared to where we actually ended up.

Honestly people come to this site still because they trust me and Joe to tell our real opinions on products and they have that trust because history shows us to be (mostly) qualified to give those opinions. If we transitioned to more generally of interest testing questions then I think we could still make some good progress in advancing/championing water cooling.

But I don't think I can get much enjoyment or do much good at this moment by "just" testing wbs.

comments?

[BillA]

got my vote
the system defines the performance
even pumps can be offset by component selection

when I get the wind tunnel going I will provide the theorists with data to choke a horse

[billbartuska]

Originally Posted by BillA

Cathar wrote a brilliant exposition on the "net clue factor" describing the devolution of intelligent information/posters on 'technical' websites

perhaps someone will provide a link
(I'm too dumb, forgot it, lol)

Holy thread hijack!
It's great though. You guys are having a great discussion. If I can throw my 2 cents in:

This site is alot like me. I (and this site) have pretty much solved the water cooling problem...I'm getting overclocks good enough to post on other forums...so what next? For me, the joy is in the planning and execution. Like this site I'm looking to something else to plan and execute...silent computing doesn't intrest me, nor does home theater. I'd like to "pop some tops" but without some guidance (BillA....DATA!) it's kinda like jumping off a cliff...and that's where this site is...as you have been discussing...what's next? What cliff to jump off?

For me, I'm currently bighting into air removal,. I have the tools and knowledge I need to jump off that cliff.

When one of the best blocks ever developed is taken out of distribution for marketing reasons what's the point of new water cooling threads here, much less the development of a new testbed?

I love the challenge of "figuring it out". And I hope this site (and it's members) do also. Because a forum is a communitie's "work in progress" I'll just have to wait and see what happens...and through my 2 cents in every now and then!

[pHaestus]

The only thing I honestly had FUN testing in the last couple years was that Swiftech MCW-CHILL

I think if you're bored with wcing and the enthusiast scene that going sub-zero with totally impractical and expensive solutions is kinda like going to a bed and breakfast for bored married folks.

[BillA]

give me time pH, I'll provide you with excitement

BTW, I asked JoeC for a distributor name for his impending thermosyphon when available - but got no answer
perhaps my admission of competitive knowledge queered the inquiry ?

[pHaestus]

Oh and fwiw Bill I think your suggestion of the grooved socket 775 is the BEST way to test whole systems.

I just don't have the $$ atm and so I'll trudge onward with bare die A64.

[BillA]

I'm not a tearful kind of person, but that whole mess was sooo unnecessary
I too am strapped so cannot help

[terrri_nobody]

I am as the logon says a Nobody ... but I recognize this and lurk and read more than I will ever post. The WC I built, I built based on the knowledge of the people here and on other Forums.
WC has gotten boring ...mostly because of the lack of innovation for solutions. PC is the only forum who has recognized this. Proving to me the fact that you guys are the leaders and forerunners for all those other sites. The people at the head of the pack see the cliff long before the mob will.
Personally I think the stagantion is because of the big players entering the arena and flooding it with bling and simple lug and play solutions.
Yes Bill and others this may seem like crap, but I can't think of an industry that continued to innovate at a rapid pace once the established companies started throwing their weight behind mainstream easy products. Big companies don't believe in risk or research anymore.
Well that is my post for the next 6mos .... piss poor crap probably ...but back to lurking for me ....

[pHaestus]

hmm Bill actually

Looks like a socket 775 PIV and mobo is about $300CAD

And I have 2 socket 939 mobos and a 939 AMD 64 as "spares" at the house that were going to be for testing. I might be able to swap these out and more or less break even...

[BillA]

grooving ?
I'll send you mine and we could do the 2 at the same time ?
we should ask Lee and Ice Czar too, they may well join ??

sure be nice to get a bunch of us on the same wavelength

[pHaestus]

I think Jaydee pretty much solved that issue with the engraving shop suggestion?

[bigben2k]

IMO, what the ProCooling forums need is an arbitrator.

Differences of opinion are one thing, but it's detrimental to ProCooling when these differences get out of hand. An arbitrator would assist in focusing a discussion towards an agreement, wether it is an agreed upon difference, or a coming to a single conclusion, by asking both parties to clarify their positions (things get out of hand mostly because of mis-interpretations, IMO).

I respect Joe's choice of letting this forum be pretty liberal, I think it's a good thing, and by "adding" an arbitrator, it should be possible to maintain that. My 2 cents.

[BillA]

I know how to say **** off, I choose to speak for myself thanks
not for me Ben

pH
I never found one, jd declined to do so
ideas ?
in your town ??

[snowwie]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=89468

looks like another forum is one step ahead of procooling...
or is it behind?

[Joe]

hehe something I do find funny, is when someone machines a grove in their IHS people are shocked and amazed at the act At procoooling you would get no such reply, more like "well you have any numbers now? if not stfu!" hehe

[pHaestus]

That's an AMD64 so Procooling remains ahead. We already deduced that there are issues surrounding that chip's construction that make grooving the IHS worthless for longterm testing.

So I guess sitting around and bitching saved us SOME hassles

[Joe]

I like that avatar much better pH

[BillA]

a poisonous purveyor of bad info
but to his credit he understood what was said here and on the H

ah, lol - AMD !
he still slammed his dick in the dirt
I retract what credit I gave, the same fool as ever

[Etacovda]

I believe i mentioned his type earlier in the thread

If you're going to do something, at least do it right
AMD64 w/ flexible TIM, yeah, that makes sense... I mean sure, at least something is being done, but the usefulness of the possible test information is highly questionable.

[BillA]

a pool for the # of cycles ?
(IF he establishes a baseline, and reveals it !)