Liquid Nitrogen

[MeltMan]

Those canisters that you pick up at a local Computer shop or Staples are actually filled with CO2 in a liquid form.

No, they arent filled with CO2. CO2, when compressed to a liquid state has an operating pressure of about 850-950psi. Those little spray dusters run about 35-50psi. To hold CO2 in a liquid state, you have to have aluminum CO2 bottles, or Steel bottles with a working pressure of 1800 psi with 1500psi burst discs.

I play paintball, I know this.

[Cyco-Dude]

lol, i gotta find a field and play. i know theres one somewhere around where i live...bust out my modified pump and snipe some ppl

[jtroutma]

Tell me when you find one CycoDude I miss going paintballing.

MeltMan:

You do have a point there which I forgot about..... Hmmmm I do know that most of the gases released from those containers is CO2. I guess I will just have to go and buy one just to see exactly what is in those little cans. Besides, I need to clean out my system anyways

[Cyco-Dude]

it isnt CO2, its tetraflouroethane.

[Dana340]

many of us had herard of nitrogen cooled mainframes, adn while cool, remember that here they may use superconductors which require lower temps tehn normal refigerant can offer, thayt is why liquid gas is more common in these setups. for home use, or gaming or uptime, phase change with real refigerant is the best way to go. i've ben resrching it for some time adn i hope to build a good pase chage system thys wiunter using some of the good stuff, R-12. waiting for the new opteron processors though.

[crafty]

Originally posted by WireX
just a few things.

1. LN2 is a very temporary cooling solution. they designed all these setups to get to the speed, run the benchmarks, then dis-assemble the system.
2. It evaporates pretty quickly, so isn't good for anything but an afternoon of high overclocks and frozen roses... cummon, you all know that everyone would stick things in it just to see how fast they would freeze :P
3. You cannot 'resist' the freezing effects, it is condensation that you must really worry about, because that is water, and water is bad when in direct contact with electricity.
4. It is very expensive.

I could go on and on about why not to do it, but you will be the one that chooses to in the end.

-WireX

Actually i heard it was relatively cheap ... like a few dollars a liter

[crafty]

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude
changing states (liquid to gas) is a physical change, not a chemical change, so its not an endothermaic reation. if you just had LN2 in a sealed container, it wouldnt be cold at all id think. kinda like those electronics dusters. they have a pressurized liquid inside (its not cold), but once you let some out, its expands to a gas and the can gets cold. :shrug:
i dunno, maybe some-1 who knows what they're talking about should shed some light on this LOL!!

I don't know hwere you learned chemistry, but it sure is an endothermic reaction. Physicial changes can have energy changes - some things when they dissolve are endothermic/exothermic.

[crafty]

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude
changing states (liquid to gas) is a physical change, not a chemical change, so its not an endothermaic reation. if you just had LN2 in a sealed container, it wouldnt be cold at all id think. kinda like those electronics dusters. they have a pressurized liquid inside (its not cold), but once you let some out, its expands to a gas and the can gets cold. :shrug:
i dunno, maybe some-1 who knows what they're talking about should shed some light on this LOL!!

I've been thinking - it would be cold if it is a liquid under high pressure. Take fog horns for example - its a highly pressurized liquid that when you press the button ... the gas goes out rELALly fast. But if you press the button while tipping it upside down, the liquid comes out and its REALLY cold. All those things are the same like that.

[crafty]

Originally posted by jtroutma
Divided: If I understand what you are talking about correctly... (compressed air canisters?) then that is not entirely accurate.

Those canisters that you pick up at a local Computer shop or Staples are actually filled with CO2 in a liquid form. CO2 by nature wants to be a gas at say room temperature. So when you use them, you are releasing the CO2 that is a gas in the canister to the outside and "boiling" off new CO2 in the canister at the same time. Hence the reason why if you turn the canister upside-down and use it, it shoots out more of a liquid than air. CO2 will evaporate very quickly without pressure or in a warm environme

nt (like above -60C, if I am not mistaken). When you "boil" off the CO2 it is taking the heat from the can with it; AKA the can gets very cold! Simmiar to a phase exchange system where you take a liquid and let it "boil" in a evaporator to produce the chilling effect.

There may also be some other gases or chemicals in the canister to aid in the "boiling" effect but not much, say 5% of the whole container.

Hope that helps.

Yeah, you're right on with that. I remember turning over one of those dusters and spraying it on my jeans - its extremely cold and turns a big spot into solid ice!

[Alchemy]

Originally posted by crafty
I don't know hwere you learned chemistry, but it sure is an endothermic reaction. Physicial changes can have energy changes - some things when they dissolve are endothermic/exothermic.

It's not an endothermic reaction. It's an endothermic phase change.

Pouring liquid N2 on something room temperature will cause the N2 to immediately evaporate. When things evaporate, they absorb heat. Thus, the object the N2 is being poured on gets very cold very fast.

These cans of compressed gas for blasting away dust usually contain some sort of flouroethane. When you spray it, the gas quickly escapes because it is under pressure. A little bit of liquid evaporates to make up for this loss of pressure, and it doesn't take much of that to get the can very, very cold.

Originally posted by SonixOS
If you do end up LN2 cooling, make sure you wear gloves and such cuz if you dip ur dick (maybe your finger would be more likely) in it you lose it. Also, LN2 will evaporate rapidly and cause dissociation of O2 where the room you are in will lack O2 particles and be replaced with LN2. Therefore it is CRUCIAL that you have adiquate breeze going through the room you are in.

I should point out that people would need cryogenic gloves. Latex gloves, or even Arctic expedition gloves, won't cut it.

And the dewar you mentioned is basically a thermos. LN2 won't evaporate as long as no heat gets to it, so you can keep a liter of it in a good dewar for a good day or two before you loose it all. Dewars are unsealed to allow a little bit of LN2 to evaporate, since heat will still get through the thermos, and if it was sealed it would pressurize until it eventually exploded.

I used nitrogen gas and LN2 in some of my research labs, and it's some fun stuff. It's very cheap - less than $50 for an 80 gallon tank, I belive. But that's only because we own the tanks and receive daily shipments of hundreds of dollars worth of compressed and liquefied gases. If I bought LN2 I wouldn't need to pay for delivery, plus, I get a massive discount simply due to the amount of business the supply company gets from us.

Of course, if you don't receive large daily shipments of compressed and liquified gases and a loading dock facility to accept them *and* you do not have a proper LN2 storage tank (*very* expensive, and dewars won't work if you expect to run your system for more than a few minutes) *and* you do not have the facilities to pump the LN2 (it's at a very low pressure and won't escape by itself) *and* you don't have an adequate ventilation system . . .

And that's just the stuff I could think up off the top of my head. Unless someone had access to all these facilities, building a LN2 cooling system would cost tens of thousands of dollars. If one intended to run a system continously, we'd be talking operating costs approaching a million dollars a year. This is *not* the sort of budget for a hobby.

BTW, the term is displacement, not dissociation. You got the idea right, though.

Alchemy

[redleader]

It's not an endothermic reaction. It's an endothermic phase change.

Eh? I would call a phase change a reaction . . . after all you loose one substance and gain another. Not to mention theres a change in enthalpy and entrophy.

[Alchemy]

Originally posted by redleader
Eh? I would call a phase change a reaction . . . after all you loose one substance and gain another. Not to mention theres a change in enthalpy and entrophy.

A chemical reaction is when a one chemical changes to another chemical.

Nitrogen is still nitrogen whether it's liquid or gas.

Alchemy

[crafty]

he's considering it a physical reaction... but its usually called a physical change. reaction doesn't seem to be applied to things like that very often.

[dantheman]

Liquid nitrogen is alot of fun. Its neat how if you spill it on a table or something it scatters all over in small beads because of the fast change to a gas actually holds the LN2 off the table.

You can actually take some, and put it in your mouth and just blow out smoke. It works on exactly the same principal.

(don't do it with lots, just a small amount, and definatly don't swallow)

[#Rotor]

oooooo thank goodness.... there is still hope for me..... I am so relieved now, there I thought I was as crazy as can be....

I feel better now.....

[redleader]

A chemical reaction is when a one chemical changes to another chemical.

N(g) + energy ===> N(l)

Though I think you're right.

[Alchemy]

Originally posted by bigben2k
Yep, that's the one...
http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?cal...bmersion2.html

How the hell did these people afford two gallons of Fluorinert?

I'm tempted to call & get pricing for FC-40 for a similar project I'm thinking up. Perhaps it's a bit more affordable here in the States. Maybe I can ship it to my department without my advisor noticing . . .

Alchemy

[SonixOS]

i wouldnt do that simply because its not a permanent solution that you can use to cool your computer for more than a day.

[Phuzun]

ALSO if anyone is SERIOUSLY interested, we have some industrial Phase exchange Compressors sitting in our backyard waiting for a home from 1Ton to 10Ton compressors

Then why are you DIYing yourself a nice N2 compressor. It requires 2000psi correct? Well use a biggun to cool down the entire neighborhood.

I'm sure you could cool down quite a few computers subzero with that type of hardware.

[Alchemy]

Originally posted by SonixOS
i wouldnt do that simply because its not a permanent solution that you can use to cool your computer for more than a day.

Does Fluorinert become conductive after such a short time?

Alchemy

[8-Ball]

Originally posted by Alchemy
Does Fluorinert become conductive after such a short time?

Alchemy

I think he is talking about using LN2 to cool fluorinert.

Fluorinert or not, anything using LN2 is not a long term solution.

Crafty,

The liquid in pressurised canisters is NOT cold in the canister.

Take Liquid nitrogen for example, and I will try and explain this as thoroughly as possible.

Firstly, you need to understand that nitrogen can be a liquid even at room temperature. You just have to compress it.

Although I can't find one on the web, if you saw a Nitrogen phase diagram, you would see that N2 can be solid liquid or gas depending on the temperature and pressure.

At room temperature and pressure, nitrogen is a gas.

There are two ways of liquifying it.

Cool the N2 down to its boiling temperature at standard pressure, around -197 I think, or pressurise it, several thousand psi at room temperature.

Obviously, you can use a combination of cooling and compressing.

So on to the two ways of storing liquid nitrogen.

1. Dewar, liquid nitrogen is decanted into a dewar. Liquid nitrogen is at -197 degrees at room pressure. In order to keep it liquid, you need to insulate it. Think of a dewar as a very expensive thermos flask. It can maintain the LN2 at -197 at room pressure, so it will not evaporate.

2. Pressurised canister. N2 is compressed until it liquifies at room temperature. This liquid is transferred into a large canister which can hold the LN2 at the correct temperature.

It is important to note that these canisters are metal, ie good thermal conductors. If the LN2 were cold when it was transferred into the cylinder, then heat will be conducted into the canister. The temperature of the LN2 will rise until it reaches the same temp as the outside of the canister. The pressure in the canister will rise accordingly to apoint were the N2 is stable as a liquid at room temp, or the canister bursts.

Dewars are used for transporting LN2 and for short term storage, however, a perfectly insulated storage solution is hard to come by, thus, it will slowly heat up. Provided that the LN2 is used up relatively quickly, this won't be a problem. That is why large scale storage of LN2 is under pressure.

When the pressurised LN2 is released, ie, the pressure drops to room pressure, the effective boiling point will drop from room temperature (at the storage pressure) to -197 (at atmospheric pressure). However, the LN2 will only really boil at the surface, though this boiling LN2 will absorb the latent heat of evaporation from the bulk of the remaining liquid. This will continue to happen until the liquid reaches roughly -197. It will continue to boil because heat will continue to conduct from the surrounding air into the LN2, thus boiling off more LN2, which takes more latent heat, keeping the temp at -197.

The point I'm getting at, is that LN2 and similar high pressure liquids, such as your fog horn example only become cold once they are released into atmospheric pressure. This is why LN2 is not a long term cooling solution, as it will continue to evaporate until it is all gaseous.

As for pressurised cans feeling cooler when you shake them, the only solution I can think of is that shaking them encourages vapour to be released from the liquid, in a similar way that shaking a can of fizzy drink forces the gas out of solution. This gas will again absorb latent heat fro m the liquid, cooling it down.

If left to settle, the gas will liquify again, releasing latent heat back into the liquid.

As for using a pressurised can, as the contents are released, the total amount in the can will be reduce, thus more of it can evaporate. Again, this will absorb latent heat.

I hope this clears things up.

8-ball

[Alchemy]

Originally posted by 8-Ball
I think he is talking about using LN2 to cool fluorinert.

I see.

To be more specific, I was thinking of using Fluorinert chilled with some sort of phase change apparatus or a peltier device. I wanted to know if fluorinert had a metal solubility such that it would lose its dielectric properties after a certain amount of time in contact with fine circuitry.

Alchemy

[redleader]

4. It is very expensive.

Its actually very, very, cheap, just the containers aren't. Here at school they'll give it out to anyone who is competant not to burn themselves with it.