Question for water chillers - Page 2

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-05-2002, 10:44 PM

I am surprised at how wrong you people are with lapping.. You make lapping sound like the best thing next to sliced bread and burlesque houses.

The true fact is that when that water block comes from the factory it is already perfectly flat. Those blocks are CNC cut.. and are in the range of like.. .0001 flat.. or however that works.. there is NO need to lap a block that is direct from the factory.

Now, if you have abused your block.. or like me.. used a peltier.. and then let the block sit outside for 2 months now.. then you should lap it.. Otherwise.. there is NO need to lap.

Maybe someone already said this.. i didn't read the whole thread. I just get so sick of people talking about lapping a block when 90% of the time it's not even needed. Same with heatsinks.. although they are a bit easier to muck up.. specially if it's aluminum..

Can O' Beans · 08-06-2002, 02:22 AM

It COMPLETELY depends on the quality of the block or heatsink.

I've bought quite a few "quality" heatsinks where the bottom was NOT flat, I took it to work, had the machine shop grind it down flat.

I've seen some blocks that weren't flat either.

Another part where lapping comes into play is when the bottom surface has rough machining marks, this also needs lapped.

Some companies take the time to produce high quality products, with attention to these details, others don't.

000 · 08-06-2002, 09:39 AM

For those who were recommending using methanol:

I was looking around and methanol is some nasty stuff that can either make you blind or kill you. I realize antifreeze can do some nasty things also, but antifreeze takes a much larger amount to do damage, ethanol seems to be much more potent.

After finding that out is the amount of methanol in windshield wiper fluid (approx %33) enough to be worried about? Will the methanol evaporate out and cause problems since I have my container inside my house and it's not a sealed system?

I'd rather not go blind or die from cooling my computer, anybody know?

Thanks,

-Sidney

TigerOats · 08-06-2002, 11:39 AM

Methanol is dangerous stuff and it does evaporate even at these low temps. 33% is not sufficient to prevent freezing below -10C. Ethanol is no better than antifreeze in terms of its lowering of freezing point or viscosity I know I tried and it also smells. Methanol would be fine in a closed system.

bigben2k · 08-06-2002, 11:57 AM

That's correct.

The system needs to be closed (and I mean SEALED). Methanol would otherwise evaporate, under those conditions.

000 · 08-06-2002, 12:04 PM

Well scratch that idea for me then, I don't have any way to seal my system airtight.

TigerOats,
So the viscosity was pretty much the same for ethanol as antifreeze? I noticed your water solution temperature is about the same as mine and your cpu temp is also about the same, what kind of pump are you using?

TigerOats · 08-06-2002, 03:06 PM

Using a submerged Maxijet 750. Running a T'bird1.33 AXIA Y at the moment at 1630 at 2.05V and my temps are around 7C at -13.5 which is the stabilised temp. At -21c its around 3C.
Saw no difference with the ethanol. The family threatened to kick me out if I didn't remove it because of the smell

000 · 08-06-2002, 05:47 PM

TigerOats,

Have you measured your flow when your water is at -13.5c ? The reason I ask is that with a 2,653 liter per hour pump I'm only get about 454.8 liters per hour around that temperature. So I was wondering if your flow was around 129 liters per hour or not (since I'm only getting about 17% of my rated flow, was curious if you were also).

The odd thing is if I go by head ratings for my pump (which I don't think I can, but it's interesting anyhow) that would put me at about 3.05 meters. The reason that's interesting is that your pump shuts off around 1.5 meters. Since I only have about 3 meters of 1/2" tubing and a mcw462-uh waterblock (supposed to let lots of flow through) I wouldn't imagine that my tubing or block is slowing stuff down any more than your setup.

Anyhow it would be very interesting to know your flow numbers at that temperature.

TigerOats · 08-07-2002, 01:28 AM

I am getting around 120L/hour and tubing length is 2m.

000 · 08-07-2002, 08:47 AM

That's pretty interesting, so I wonder if we can apply the 17% number to any pump or not (at least for a 40-50% mixture of antifreeze & water @ -13.5c).

I'll make sure and do tests with my danner 12 once I get it in. If that's correct then I should see 773 L/hour (or 204 gph).

It'll be interesting since it has a bit of a different curve than the danner 7 I have now. The 12 stays strong for most of the curve and then drops fast at the end, and the 7 is more linear (not quite linear but more so than the 12).

bigben2k · 08-07-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 000
I didn't think of looking in dollar stores, I'll have to go by some tommorrow.

Wow, that's pretty lucky. I didn't notice that they were in houston. Wonder if oil companies use heat transfer liquid (I'm guessing I'll find out fairly soon )

I asked around here (Halliburton) and they usually use glycols, in the drilling process, except in Alaska, where they use methanol. I don't know how it is used, but I do know that the EPA is on their back constantly, so I'm sure that they're not dumping any in the ground.

000 · 08-07-2002, 11:12 AM

I wonder what they're using it to cool exactly? Maybe the drilling rigs?

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-07-2002, 05:16 PM

My system is just about done.. all that is left now is to vac pump it.. fill it and.. well test it!

These things will get done tomorrow.

I will try to test my pump flow at the lowest temp. IF all works right.. I am hoping to see -15F or better on the water with no load and guessing a realistic 10F with load.. but who knows.. anyway.. Wish me luck.

bigben2k · 08-07-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
My system is just about done.. all that is left now is to vac pump it.. fill it and.. well test it! These things will get done tomorrow.

I will try to test my pump flow at the lowest temp. IF all works right.. I am hoping to see -15F or better on the water with no load and guessing a realistic 10F with load.. but who knows.. anyway.. Wish me luck.

You've been busy! I see you got in touch with your local HVAC shop...

Did you post pics somewhere?

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-08-2002, 12:43 PM

LOL ben.. no i haven't contacted any HVAC shops.. heh.. No need for that now..

No pics right now.. I will try to get my friends digital cam as soon as I can. All I have to do today is vac pump the damn thing n fill it.. we shall see how it works!

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-08-2002, 04:59 PM

Right now my system is sitting in a vacuum

ANd HOT DAMN! IT's actually holding! WOOHOO!! Wasn't expecting it to.. but.. it is.. praise the lord! LOL

Anyway.. I was at autozone today and i got this r-134a tune up crap.. anyone know if i can charge my system with it?? It has oil and this performence booster thing and r-134a too.. i gotta read the can i guess

bigben2k · 08-08-2002, 05:07 PM

If it used to have R-22, then you CANNOT recharge it with R-134A: the stuff in R-134a will react with the remnants of the R-22 corrode right through the system.

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-08-2002, 07:01 PM

no sh!t ben.. don't take me for a newbie dude.. getting tired of it..

it's an r-134a system.. i've mentioned this like.. a thousand times..

bigben2k · 08-09-2002, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
no sh!t ben.. don't take me for a newbie dude.. getting tired of it..

it's an r-134a system.. i've mentioned this like.. a thousand times..

Well if you posted more about your thinking process while you're building your rig, we'd know where you're at!

In any case, I'd go with the R-134A kit that you picked up. I've been reading up on this performance boosting option, and it seems perfectly reasonable.

So what's the process that you're going through anyways? What's this about vacuuming out your system? How do you do that? Did you put in a discharge/refill valve? How do you gauge how much R-134A you should have in there?

You know, we keep asking stupid questions, because our level of understanding stopped where you left off, and because phase change cooling is really out there. To paraphrase a famous actor "We're in the dark here!!!"

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-09-2002, 11:23 AM

Sorry dude.. but I don't need anyone telling me the basics of refrigeration heh..

Quote:

So what's the process that you're going through anyways? What's this about vacuuming out your system? How do you do that? Did you put in a discharge/refill valve? How do you gauge how much R-134A you should have in there?

Process I am going through? What do you mean?

You have to vac pump the system once it is all together to take out any moisture that may be in the system. What happens is when the system is closed and you put it in a vacuum.. any moisture inside will boil and get sucked right out.. it's pretty amazing considering that the water boils even though the whole system is at room temp. Wonders of a vacuum like that of outer space!

It also proves to me that the system is closed and my solder job wasn't so bad after all.

I am using a vac pump.. I forget the name/brand.. it's a refrigeration vac pump.

I cut the factory fill line (which looks like a little.. hmm pig tail..) coming out of the compressor.. it's not easy to miss.. seeing how its crimped and soldering off.. I cut that.. put a longer piece of copper tubing on it that goes above the compressor and then I put on a shrader valve.

Not sure about the filling of it.. that is one spot am I not to sure about. Although from my best beliefs and what my friend says who has been doing phase change systems for a while.. I am told to start the compressor, start putting in freon until the evaporator starts to cool.. then stop adding it.. let it sit until the evaporator stops getting cool.. then let a little bit out just until the evaporator starts to get warm.. then.. wait until it stops getting warm.. then put in a bit more freon until the evaporator starts getting cool again.. then leave it.. ssooo.. We shall try that method. He said that this will leave you with the best performence.. Plus.. I use gauges.. and all that crap.

Anymore questions.. ask.

bigben2k · 08-09-2002, 12:48 PM

I think you've got enough information to put together an article. Whatever your results are, we are all certainly learning a lot from your work.

(aka thanks for sharing!)

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-09-2002, 01:33 PM

no problem.. if this system works good like I hope.. I am planning on putting together another one.. this time smaller.. and sell it.. probably for around 400.00ish.. considering the benefits of being able to cool any part of your PC that has a water block.. Possibilities of even being able to cool your PC through very cold air.. using the water chiller design.. and a radiator.. but who knows.. my first step is if this works.. is to make a smaller model.. a lot smaller.. something that's portable and will fit under the PC.. something like that..

I suppose I could do a write up if people wanted.. and if I do this again I could supply pics and all.. sort of like a step by step thing.. Maybe pro cooling would give me some funds to do another model if this one works good

Considering I blew so much down on this one.. I don't really have the desire to foot another one entirely out of my pocket.

Any more questions.. ask me.

airspirit · 08-09-2002, 05:08 PM

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT USE METHANOL UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE. That said, it can be used if you are extremely careful. You will be better off using ethanol from a chemical supply store at your local college. The properties are very very similar and ethanol isn't a nerve toxin.

Lets be smart here and not send a dude to his untimely demise. The extra 1-2C isn't worth it.

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-09-2002, 06:11 PM

I'd laugh my ass off if someone died.. lol

airspirit · 08-09-2002, 06:18 PM

You know some dipsh!t s going to fill a bucket with the crap and dunk his arms in while assembling his kit. Then, as a follow up to absorbing a ton of it through his skin (this is transdermally absorbed), he's going to dry his hands on a towel and eat a Big Mac and fries ... then wonder why he's blind and puking. Not everybody has that much common sense with these things (Miss America contestants regularly rinse their mouths out with bleach before contests to ensure their teeth are as white as possible). Besides that obscene example of what could happen, it doesn't take much of the stuff to make somebody quite sick.

08-06-2002, 11:39 AM	#29
TigerOats Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 33	Methanol is dangerous stuff and it does evaporate even at these low temps. 33% is not sufficient to prevent freezing below -10C. Ethanol is no better than antifreeze in terms of its lowering of freezing point or viscosity I know I tried and it also smells. Methanol would be fine in a closed system. __________________ Athlon T'bird 1.33 AXIA Y @1632 (12x136) Water cooled with refrigerated chiller; idle = full load = 3C Coolant = - 20C MSI K7T Turbo Raid V3.0 256Meg Crucial PC133 RAM 350W Enermax Diamond Viper V770 TNT2/Pro

08-06-2002, 11:57 AM	#30
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	That's correct. The system needs to be closed (and I mean SEALED). Methanol would otherwise evaporate, under those conditions. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 08-06-2002 at 01:26 PM.

08-06-2002, 03:06 PM	#32
TigerOats Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 33	Using a submerged Maxijet 750. Running a T'bird1.33 AXIA Y at the moment at 1630 at 2.05V and my temps are around 7C at -13.5 which is the stabilised temp. At -21c its around 3C. Saw no difference with the ethanol. The family threatened to kick me out if I didn't remove it because of the smell __________________ Athlon T'bird 1.33 AXIA Y @1632 (12x136) Water cooled with refrigerated chiller; idle = full load = 3C Coolant = - 20C MSI K7T Turbo Raid V3.0 256Meg Crucial PC133 RAM 350W Enermax Diamond Viper V770 TNT2/Pro

08-07-2002, 01:28 AM	#34
TigerOats Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 33	I am getting around 120L/hour and tubing length is 2m. __________________ Athlon T'bird 1.33 AXIA Y @1632 (12x136) Water cooled with refrigerated chiller; idle = full load = 3C Coolant = - 20C MSI K7T Turbo Raid V3.0 256Meg Crucial PC133 RAM 350W Enermax Diamond Viper V770 TNT2/Pro

08-08-2002, 05:07 PM	#42
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	If it used to have R-22, then you CANNOT recharge it with R-134A: the stuff in R-134a will react with the remnants of the R-22 corrode right through the system. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-05-2002, 10:44 PM	#26
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I am surprised at how wrong you people are with lapping.. You make lapping sound like the best thing next to sliced bread and burlesque houses. The true fact is that when that water block comes from the factory it is already perfectly flat. Those blocks are CNC cut.. and are in the range of like.. .0001 flat.. or however that works.. there is NO need to lap a block that is direct from the factory. Now, if you have abused your block.. or like me.. used a peltier.. and then let the block sit outside for 2 months now.. then you should lap it.. Otherwise.. there is NO need to lap. Maybe someone already said this.. i didn't read the whole thread. I just get so sick of people talking about lapping a block when 90% of the time it's not even needed. Same with heatsinks.. although they are a bit easier to muck up.. specially if it's aluminum..

08-06-2002, 02:22 AM	#27
Can O' Beans Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Pa - USA Posts: 264	It COMPLETELY depends on the quality of the block or heatsink. I've bought quite a few "quality" heatsinks where the bottom was NOT flat, I took it to work, had the machine shop grind it down flat. I've seen some blocks that weren't flat either. Another part where lapping comes into play is when the bottom surface has rough machining marks, this also needs lapped. Some companies take the time to produce high quality products, with attention to these details, others don't.

08-06-2002, 09:39 AM	#28
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	For those who were recommending using methanol: I was looking around and methanol is some nasty stuff that can either make you blind or kill you. I realize antifreeze can do some nasty things also, but antifreeze takes a much larger amount to do damage, ethanol seems to be much more potent. After finding that out is the amount of methanol in windshield wiper fluid (approx %33) enough to be worried about? Will the methanol evaporate out and cause problems since I have my container inside my house and it's not a sealed system? I'd rather not go blind or die from cooling my computer, anybody know? Thanks, -Sidney

08-06-2002, 12:04 PM	#31
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	Well scratch that idea for me then, I don't have any way to seal my system airtight. TigerOats, So the viscosity was pretty much the same for ethanol as antifreeze? I noticed your water solution temperature is about the same as mine and your cpu temp is also about the same, what kind of pump are you using?

08-06-2002, 05:47 PM	#33
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	TigerOats, Have you measured your flow when your water is at -13.5c ? The reason I ask is that with a 2,653 liter per hour pump I'm only get about 454.8 liters per hour around that temperature. So I was wondering if your flow was around 129 liters per hour or not (since I'm only getting about 17% of my rated flow, was curious if you were also). The odd thing is if I go by head ratings for my pump (which I don't think I can, but it's interesting anyhow) that would put me at about 3.05 meters. The reason that's interesting is that your pump shuts off around 1.5 meters. Since I only have about 3 meters of 1/2" tubing and a mcw462-uh waterblock (supposed to let lots of flow through) I wouldn't imagine that my tubing or block is slowing stuff down any more than your setup. Anyhow it would be very interesting to know your flow numbers at that temperature.

08-07-2002, 08:47 AM	#35
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	That's pretty interesting, so I wonder if we can apply the 17% number to any pump or not (at least for a 40-50% mixture of antifreeze & water @ -13.5c). I'll make sure and do tests with my danner 12 once I get it in. If that's correct then I should see 773 L/hour (or 204 gph). It'll be interesting since it has a bit of a different curve than the danner 7 I have now. The 12 stays strong for most of the curve and then drops fast at the end, and the 7 is more linear (not quite linear but more so than the 12).

08-07-2002, 11:12 AM	#37
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	I wonder what they're using it to cool exactly? Maybe the drilling rigs?

08-07-2002, 05:16 PM	#38
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	My system is just about done.. all that is left now is to vac pump it.. fill it and.. well test it! These things will get done tomorrow. I will try to test my pump flow at the lowest temp. IF all works right.. I am hoping to see -15F or better on the water with no load and guessing a realistic 10F with load.. but who knows.. anyway.. Wish me luck.

08-08-2002, 12:43 PM	#40
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	LOL ben.. no i haven't contacted any HVAC shops.. heh.. No need for that now.. No pics right now.. I will try to get my friends digital cam as soon as I can. All I have to do today is vac pump the damn thing n fill it.. we shall see how it works!

08-08-2002, 04:59 PM	#41
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Right now my system is sitting in a vacuum ANd HOT DAMN! IT's actually holding! WOOHOO!! Wasn't expecting it to.. but.. it is.. praise the lord! LOL Anyway.. I was at autozone today and i got this r-134a tune up crap.. anyone know if i can charge my system with it?? It has oil and this performence booster thing and r-134a too.. i gotta read the can i guess

08-08-2002, 07:01 PM	#43
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	no sh!t ben.. don't take me for a newbie dude.. getting tired of it.. it's an r-134a system.. i've mentioned this like.. a thousand times..

08-09-2002, 12:48 PM	#46
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I think you've got enough information to put together an article. Whatever your results are, we are all certainly learning a lot from your work. (aka thanks for sharing!) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-09-2002, 01:33 PM	#47
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	no problem.. if this system works good like I hope.. I am planning on putting together another one.. this time smaller.. and sell it.. probably for around 400.00ish.. considering the benefits of being able to cool any part of your PC that has a water block.. Possibilities of even being able to cool your PC through very cold air.. using the water chiller design.. and a radiator.. but who knows.. my first step is if this works.. is to make a smaller model.. a lot smaller.. something that's portable and will fit under the PC.. something like that.. I suppose I could do a write up if people wanted.. and if I do this again I could supply pics and all.. sort of like a step by step thing.. Maybe pro cooling would give me some funds to do another model if this one works good Considering I blew so much down on this one.. I don't really have the desire to foot another one entirely out of my pocket. Any more questions.. ask me.

08-09-2002, 05:08 PM	#48
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT USE METHANOL UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE. That said, it can be used if you are extremely careful. You will be better off using ethanol from a chemical supply store at your local college. The properties are very very similar and ethanol isn't a nerve toxin. Lets be smart here and not send a dude to his untimely demise. The extra 1-2C isn't worth it.

08-09-2002, 06:11 PM	#49
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I'd laugh my ass off if someone died.. lol

08-09-2002, 06:18 PM	#50
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	You know some dipsh!t s going to fill a bucket with the crap and dunk his arms in while assembling his kit. Then, as a follow up to absorbing a ton of it through his skin (this is transdermally absorbed), he's going to dry his hands on a towel and eat a Big Mac and fries ... then wonder why he's blind and puking. Not everybody has that much common sense with these things (Miss America contestants regularly rinse their mouths out with bleach before contests to ensure their teeth are as white as possible). Besides that obscene example of what could happen, it doesn't take much of the stuff to make somebody quite sick.

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