Windshield wiper fluid is BAD! - Page 2

bigben2k · 08-07-2002, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 000
Hmm yeah I see that now, might be ok with only a 33% concentration though. I'll do a little test and see if it's eating into stuff tonight (put a drop of acetone on the various plastics to see if it starts dissolving it)

Ok, but keep in mind that the reaction might not be instantaneous: I've seen some plastics soften up over a week or so, with that stuff.

What does work is styrofoam: Acetone will eat it instantly!

iceheart · 08-07-2002, 02:55 PM

A lot of stuff eats styrofoam, superglue and spray paints are very entertaining.

000 · 08-07-2002, 03:11 PM

I looked up the other things, my pump uses abs plastic which resists acetone and the polypropylene barbs are ok with acetone. The weak link may be the tubing though.

bigben2k · 08-07-2002, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 000
I looked up the other things, my pump uses abs plastic which resists acetone and the polypropylene barbs are ok with acetone. The weak link may be the tubing though.

What about the pumps' impeller?

000 · 08-07-2002, 03:35 PM

Hmm I can't find what it's made out of, I'd guess it's probably abs like the outside but I'm not sure.

jaydee · 08-07-2002, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 000
Hmm I can't find what it's made out of, I'd guess it's probably abs like the outside but I'm not sure.

Better check it out. My pump uses ABS on the case but the impeller is just standard durable plastic. Also make sure that the gaskets that seal the pump will withstand it. With a diluted concentration it maybe alright though.

bigben2k · 08-07-2002, 04:04 PM

On a side note, nail polish remover contains acetone, but is not entirely acetone: it will contain some light oil, or something to prevent it from dehydrating hands.

Acetone should be available at any hardware store (i've bought some before).

jaydee · 08-07-2002, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

Acetone should be available at any hardware store (i've bought some before).

Yeah, go to the paint section. Thats where we get it for work.

000 · 08-07-2002, 06:53 PM

Well I tested the acetone on the various materials and they all seemed ok. I didn't feel any differences, except I believe when I tested it out on some vinyl tubing. The vinyl wasn't dramatic but it did start feeling a bit sticky after awhile of rubbing the acetone on it.

There was one problem though, I'm pretty sure that the epoxy is not resistant to acetone. And it doesn't look like the abs plastic forms a water tight seal around the epoxy (there's some small gaps). Now if a 33% solution would have much affect on it I'm not sure, but I think I'm going to just stick with the antifreeze & water for now.

Maybe some more adventurous person will try it out and let us know how it goes, I don't think you'll notice anything for awhile if there are problems. So if someone did try it out we probably wouldn't know if it was messing up their stuff until a few months later.

bigben2k · 08-08-2002, 08:59 AM

myv65: any progress on getting those heat transfering properties of Acetone? You could kill this thread right here, right now...

myv65 · 08-08-2002, 09:57 AM

Sorry Ben, but it's not in my texts at all. It simply isn't a normal heat transfer fluid. That in and of itself would be enough to keep me away from it. IIRC, acetone is also pretty flammable, and if something went wrong with the system it would be pretty easy to get temps up in the 70°C range or higher. Personally? No thanks I'll pass.

I guess we need someone more gullible, uh I mean "adventurous" (in a curiously dangerous sort of way).

000 · 08-08-2002, 10:37 AM

These are the properties that I have found:
(and I know the viscosity is nearly meaningless for cold temperatures, but it gives a general idea of why acetone is promising)

1) Thermal Conductivity (W/m·K)
2) Thermal Capacity (J/(kg K))
3) Dynamic viscosity (m·10^6) (Pa.s)
4) Melting temp (C)
5) Boiling temp (C)
6) Density (kg/m^3)
7) Surface tension (N/m)
8) Flash Point (C)
9) Auto Ignition (C)

Acetone
1) 0.18
2) 2150
3) 330
4) -95
5) 56
6) 791
7) 0.024
8) -18
9) 465

Ethanol
1) 0.18
2) 2840
3) 1194
4) -117
5) 79
6) 790
7) 0.023
8) 12
9) 425

Methanol
1) 0.21
2) 2510
3) 593
4) -98
5) 65
6) 791
7) 0.023
8) 10
9) 455

Water
1) 0.60
2) 4180
3) 1000
4) 0
5) 100
6) 998
7) 0.073
8) ?
9) ?

As far as flamability it seems that it's about the same as methanol and ethanol from the data.

bigben2k · 08-08-2002, 11:40 AM

Good info!

Unfortunately, we never suggested using straight Methanol, so the flamability aspect is a very important one.

Also, if Acetone eats away a little bit at vynil, then it will eat away at it over a period of time.

I seem to remember something about acetone, where if the recycling logo (the little arrows in a triangle) have a number 2 or lower, then it is safe with Acetone, or something like that. It might be #1 only, my memory is bad!

Check it out

000 · 08-08-2002, 11:47 AM

Well I wouldn't recommend using straight acetone either, the freezing point is nearly the same so you should be able to use the same amount of acetone as you would methanol (which is about 33% in the -35c windshield wiper fluid), so I would think that used in the same concentration that their flamability would be about the same.

That's interesting about the recycling symbol, I'll have to see if I can find anything about it.

myv65 · 08-08-2002, 12:30 PM

Recycling symbols 1 and 2 are for polyethylene, low density and high density, IIRC.

Another fluid mix you may wish to investigate further is hydrogen peroxide and water at 50:50. That's a lot stronger than the stuff you'll get in the drugstore and I'm not sure how metals would like it. It's a pretty strong reducing agent, so might tend to eat metal for lunch. All I can tell you is that its heat transfer properties are pretty good.

000 · 08-08-2002, 12:38 PM

The problem with hydrogen peroxide is that it eats copper, it might be ok an all aluminium system though.

airspirit · 08-09-2002, 02:33 PM

Ethanol. You can get it dirt cheeeep, and while it IS flammable, it isn't going to kill you to handle it. It still provides a good source of subzero cooling fluid. Buy it at your local college chemical store by the 5gal jug (denatured).

airspirit · 08-09-2002, 02:44 PM

It is interesting to note, though, that the toxicity issues have been discussed on this forum and dismissed during the past two weeks. It appears that we need to do more research into safety before we start doling out advice. When dealing with a hobbyist application such as this, toxicity is something to be avoided AT ALL COSTS unless it is an absolute necessity (such as the refrigerants in phase change systems, and those require an amount of expertise to even consider). A small gain in somebody's system isn't worth their life. We need to think the situation through before we start suggesting to Mr. Newbie that he dump nerve toxin into his computer to get a few degrees cooler. While many of us take the necessary precautions to prevent poisoning with the additives we use, not everyone has that experience. That is why Ethanol was suggested before. Even in its denatured form (3-5% methanol) there is some toxicity worries, but they are extremely low, and is relatively safe for a newbie to handle if he WEARS RUBBER GLOVES. Even with the gloves, though, I wouldn't recommend methanol to ANYBODY except people that have extreme experience since it can be absorbed through the skin quite readily.

We need to be more careful, guys.

airspirit · 08-09-2002, 02:47 PM

Further, I wouldn't use Acetone in your computer. It is highly flammable (like the others) and is quite toxic (though not on par with methanol). Since its heat dissapating qualities are nearly identical to ethanol, it makes no sense to use it. It can also be absorbed transdermally.

000 · 08-10-2002, 12:57 PM

Ethanol only provides very slight improvement in viscosity over antifreeze (at -20c) so it'd be better just to use antifreeze over ethanol since it won't stink up the place.

Also the only thing harmful about acetone is the vapors, which cause dizziness, headach or nausea. In other words you'll feel ill but you'll be fine. This has a great advantage because you'll feel ill if your in danger of igniting vapors. Acetone is actually safer (biologically) than antifreeze, so if you have no problem with getting antifreeze on you then you shouldn't with acetone either.

Also When diluted with water to a 30% concentration becomes much less flammable.

*mat-ster* · 08-12-2002, 10:10 PM

Acetone has good phase change properties but degrades plastics like polyamide.

I came across this article, worth reading

http://www.amdmb.com/article-display...D=196&PageID=1

Alchemy · 11-08-2002, 12:22 PM

Acetone is generally regarded as a universal solvent for plastics, and I think others have established its danger. The fact that it has such a high vapor pressure means the acetone concentration in your system would drop significantly anytime the system was allowed to vent. The vapor would also be mostly acetone, so mixing it in low concentrations with water may still make vapor that is highly flammable and toxic.

Unless it has astounding heat transfer properties (which is unlikely, since pure acetone is quite dismal compared to pure water) I can't imagine why someone would bother going through the effort of building a solvent-proof system.

I'd personally use ethylene glycol for sub-zero cooling. Perhaps not the best heat transfer properties, but still quite good, and very kind to your WC components.

Alchemy

redleader · 11-08-2002, 10:24 PM

Wow I can't believe you guys would consider acetone! Do you know how powerful a solvent it is? A few drops will dissolve an entire styrofoam cup

Not to mention how dangerous it is.

bigben2k · 11-09-2002, 11:21 AM

A styrofoam cup dissolves quickly because it's very porous, and has lots of air in it. Put acetone against a hard plastic, like a PVC fitting, and it will only soften up, increasingly over time, until it gives (PVC will soften up, right?).

Alchemy · 11-09-2002, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
A styrofoam cup dissolves quickly because it's very porous, and has lots of air in it. Put acetone against a hard plastic, like a PVC fitting, and it will only soften up, increasingly over time, until it gives (PVC will soften up, right?).

Good call on the styrofoam cup thing. I've used acetone to dissolve small pieces of polystyrene, and it sure does take a while.

I *think* that poly(vinyl chloride) itself can withstand stuff like acetone, but other chemicals mixed with it to make the PVC piping we see don't stand up so well. I think it will break up the softeners so that PVC will actually become really hard and brittle instead of soft.

I've never worked with PVC, though, so maybe someone who's tried it might know better.

Also, any thermosetting polymer, like a real epoxy, should be able to withstand nearly any solvent.

Alchemy

08-07-2002, 02:55 PM	#27
iceheart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Yonder Posts: 318	A lot of stuff eats styrofoam, superglue and spray paints are very entertaining. __________________ "If the majority is smarter than you, does that make everyone else a geek, or does it make you retarded?" - pHaestus

08-07-2002, 04:04 PM	#32
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	On a side note, nail polish remover contains acetone, but is not entirely acetone: it will contain some light oil, or something to prevent it from dehydrating hands. Acetone should be available at any hardware store (i've bought some before). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-08-2002, 08:59 AM	#35
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	myv65: any progress on getting those heat transfering properties of Acetone? You could kill this thread right here, right now... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-08-2002, 10:37 AM	#37
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	These are the properties that I have found: (and I know the viscosity is nearly meaningless for cold temperatures, but it gives a general idea of why acetone is promising) 1) Thermal Conductivity (W/m·K) 2) Thermal Capacity (J/(kg K)) 3) Dynamic viscosity (m·10^6) (Pa.s) 4) Melting temp (C) 5) Boiling temp (C) 6) Density (kg/m^3) 7) Surface tension (N/m) 8) Flash Point (C) 9) Auto Ignition (C) Acetone 1) 0.18 2) 2150 3) 330 4) -95 5) 56 6) 791 7) 0.024 8) -18 9) 465 Ethanol 1) 0.18 2) 2840 3) 1194 4) -117 5) 79 6) 790 7) 0.023 8) 12 9) 425 Methanol 1) 0.21 2) 2510 3) 593 4) -98 5) 65 6) 791 7) 0.023 8) 10 9) 455 Water 1) 0.60 2) 4180 3) 1000 4) 0 5) 100 6) 998 7) 0.073 8) ? 9) ? As far as flamability it seems that it's about the same as methanol and ethanol from the data. Last edited by 000; 08-08-2002 at 10:48 AM.

08-08-2002, 11:40 AM	#38
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Good info! Unfortunately, we never suggested using straight Methanol, so the flamability aspect is a very important one. Also, if Acetone eats away a little bit at vynil, then it will eat away at it over a period of time. I seem to remember something about acetone, where if the recycling logo (the little arrows in a triangle) have a number 2 or lower, then it is safe with Acetone, or something like that. It might be #1 only, my memory is bad! Check it out __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-07-2002, 03:11 PM	#28
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	I looked up the other things, my pump uses abs plastic which resists acetone and the polypropylene barbs are ok with acetone. The weak link may be the tubing though.

08-07-2002, 03:35 PM	#30
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	Hmm I can't find what it's made out of, I'd guess it's probably abs like the outside but I'm not sure.

08-07-2002, 06:53 PM	#34
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	Well I tested the acetone on the various materials and they all seemed ok. I didn't feel any differences, except I believe when I tested it out on some vinyl tubing. The vinyl wasn't dramatic but it did start feeling a bit sticky after awhile of rubbing the acetone on it. There was one problem though, I'm pretty sure that the epoxy is not resistant to acetone. And it doesn't look like the abs plastic forms a water tight seal around the epoxy (there's some small gaps). Now if a 33% solution would have much affect on it I'm not sure, but I think I'm going to just stick with the antifreeze & water for now. Maybe some more adventurous person will try it out and let us know how it goes, I don't think you'll notice anything for awhile if there are problems. So if someone did try it out we probably wouldn't know if it was messing up their stuff until a few months later.

08-08-2002, 09:57 AM	#36
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	Sorry Ben, but it's not in my texts at all. It simply isn't a normal heat transfer fluid. That in and of itself would be enough to keep me away from it. IIRC, acetone is also pretty flammable, and if something went wrong with the system it would be pretty easy to get temps up in the 70°C range or higher. Personally? No thanks I'll pass. I guess we need someone more gullible, uh I mean "adventurous" (in a curiously dangerous sort of way).

08-08-2002, 11:47 AM	#39
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	Well I wouldn't recommend using straight acetone either, the freezing point is nearly the same so you should be able to use the same amount of acetone as you would methanol (which is about 33% in the -35c windshield wiper fluid), so I would think that used in the same concentration that their flamability would be about the same. That's interesting about the recycling symbol, I'll have to see if I can find anything about it.

08-08-2002, 12:30 PM	#40
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	Recycling symbols 1 and 2 are for polyethylene, low density and high density, IIRC. Another fluid mix you may wish to investigate further is hydrogen peroxide and water at 50:50. That's a lot stronger than the stuff you'll get in the drugstore and I'm not sure how metals would like it. It's a pretty strong reducing agent, so might tend to eat metal for lunch. All I can tell you is that its heat transfer properties are pretty good.

08-08-2002, 12:38 PM	#41
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	The problem with hydrogen peroxide is that it eats copper, it might be ok an all aluminium system though.

08-09-2002, 02:33 PM	#42
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	Ethanol. You can get it dirt cheeeep, and while it IS flammable, it isn't going to kill you to handle it. It still provides a good source of subzero cooling fluid. Buy it at your local college chemical store by the 5gal jug (denatured).

08-09-2002, 02:44 PM	#43
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	It is interesting to note, though, that the toxicity issues have been discussed on this forum and dismissed during the past two weeks. It appears that we need to do more research into safety before we start doling out advice. When dealing with a hobbyist application such as this, toxicity is something to be avoided AT ALL COSTS unless it is an absolute necessity (such as the refrigerants in phase change systems, and those require an amount of expertise to even consider). A small gain in somebody's system isn't worth their life. We need to think the situation through before we start suggesting to Mr. Newbie that he dump nerve toxin into his computer to get a few degrees cooler. While many of us take the necessary precautions to prevent poisoning with the additives we use, not everyone has that experience. That is why Ethanol was suggested before. Even in its denatured form (3-5% methanol) there is some toxicity worries, but they are extremely low, and is relatively safe for a newbie to handle if he WEARS RUBBER GLOVES. Even with the gloves, though, I wouldn't recommend methanol to ANYBODY except people that have extreme experience since it can be absorbed through the skin quite readily. We need to be more careful, guys.

08-09-2002, 02:47 PM	#44
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	Further, I wouldn't use Acetone in your computer. It is highly flammable (like the others) and is quite toxic (though not on par with methanol). Since its heat dissapating qualities are nearly identical to ethanol, it makes no sense to use it. It can also be absorbed transdermally.

08-10-2002, 12:57 PM	#45
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	Ethanol only provides very slight improvement in viscosity over antifreeze (at -20c) so it'd be better just to use antifreeze over ethanol since it won't stink up the place. Also the only thing harmful about acetone is the vapors, which cause dizziness, headach or nausea. In other words you'll feel ill but you'll be fine. This has a great advantage because you'll feel ill if your in danger of igniting vapors. Acetone is actually safer (biologically) than antifreeze, so if you have no problem with getting antifreeze on you then you shouldn't with acetone either. Also When diluted with water to a 30% concentration becomes much less flammable. Last edited by 000; 08-10-2002 at 01:03 PM.

08-12-2002, 10:10 PM	#46
mat-ster Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 30	Acetone has good phase change properties but degrades plastics like polyamide. I came across this article, worth reading http://www.amdmb.com/article-display...D=196&PageID=1

11-08-2002, 12:22 PM	#47
Alchemy Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 238	Acetone is generally regarded as a universal solvent for plastics, and I think others have established its danger. The fact that it has such a high vapor pressure means the acetone concentration in your system would drop significantly anytime the system was allowed to vent. The vapor would also be mostly acetone, so mixing it in low concentrations with water may still make vapor that is highly flammable and toxic. Unless it has astounding heat transfer properties (which is unlikely, since pure acetone is quite dismal compared to pure water) I can't imagine why someone would bother going through the effort of building a solvent-proof system. I'd personally use ethylene glycol for sub-zero cooling. Perhaps not the best heat transfer properties, but still quite good, and very kind to your WC components. Alchemy

11-08-2002, 10:24 PM	#48
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Wow I can't believe you guys would consider acetone! Do you know how powerful a solvent it is? A few drops will dissolve an entire styrofoam cup Not to mention how dangerous it is.

11-09-2002, 11:21 AM	#49
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	A styrofoam cup dissolves quickly because it's very porous, and has lots of air in it. Put acetone against a hard plastic, like a PVC fitting, and it will only soften up, increasingly over time, until it gives (PVC will soften up, right?). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

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