its the OCH ipkonfig Review all over again... - Page 2

crane · 08-18-2002, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116

The only way that is pysically possible is if the CPU is not a load, otherwise the math shows you are breaking the laws of thermal dynamics. Otherwise your CPU temp probe is way off. Water and ambient sound about right though. If you have ANY ait circulating around the socket you onboard probe is wrong.

You are running at about 68watts with those settings, that puts the CW curve at 0.0588 which is far superior to anyone elses can get on the planet with ANY strait cooling system.

Maybe that is clear enough to you that your probe is either wrong or you are reporting idle temps which is worthless to begine with.

The CPU thermistor is located under the chip and I made sure it had thermal compound lightly applied to the tip and it made good contact . I don't think the probe is that far off,if at all.
I have a XP1700 running @1700 with a thermistor installed with the tip touching the side of the cpu core. MBM reports cpu temps of 35c while the thermistor on the chip reports 47c. I tend to beleive the sensor I installed is more accurate,which only makes sense because of the direct core contact.

Unless you have a way of actually measuring your core temps,you are at the mercy of your onboard sensors and have to accept the temps they give you.

Wether you think my temp probe is screwy or not has nothing to do with the subject of my original post and I don't remember anyone putting you in charge of judging my credibility.

crane · 08-19-2002, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116

The only way that is pysically possible is if the CPU is not a load, otherwise the math shows you are breaking the laws of thermal dynamics. Otherwise your CPU temp probe is way off. Water and ambient sound about right though. If you have ANY ait circulating around the socket you onboard probe is wrong.

You are running at about 68watts with those settings, that puts the CW curve at 0.0588 which is far superior to anyone elses can get on the planet with ANY strait cooling system.

Maybe that is clear enough to you that your probe is either wrong or you are reporting idle temps which is worthless to begine with.

The CPU thermistor is located under the chip and I made sure it had thermal compound lightly applied to the tip and it made good contact . I don't think the probe is that far off,if at all.
I have a XP1700 running @1700 with a thermistor installed with the tip touching the side of the cpu core. MBM reports cpu temps of 35c while the thermistor on the chip reports 47c. I tend to beleive the sensor I installed is more accurate,which only makes sense because of the direct core contact.

Unless you have a way of actually measuring your core temps,you are at the mercy of your onboard sensors and have to accept the temps they give you.

Wether you think my temp probe is screwy or not has nothing to do with the subject of my original post and I don't remember anyone putting you in charge of judging my credibility.

Dix Dogfight · 08-19-2002, 01:52 AM

@redleader

Quote:

So you're say AC motors are the same as DC?

An observation.
AC can easily be converted to DC and DC can be converted to AC. It's all a matter of how the electronics involved are designed.
So just because a pump runs on AC- or DC-mains doesn't say anything about how it uses that electricity to create flow.
It usually gives a good hint though since most DC pumps tend to function the same way.
Just my 2 cents

Pinkster · 08-19-2002, 07:17 AM

i dont have anything really against och. they make watercooling equiptment which i suppose now with the new pump can be considered reliable and it should offer better cooling that air cooling... which i think has a market. although the value for money of och's systems is debatable, they do now finally offer a compentent product which some buyers may be very pleased with as it is still a competent cooling system that they dont have to donstruct themselves. not everybody needs ultimate performance, and compared to air cooling, the och setup performs very well, which is just what some people want.

what i do not like is that the review gives the opinion that it is the best watercooling on the market, which it most clearly is not, although och have got their act together somewhat, at least there systems are more reliable now (although i wonder if thats actually a silver plated copper block will it cause any corrosion with the aluminium radiator?), the performance is clearly not cutting edge compared to other watercooling products. the review is poor as it glosses over the deficenties of the product, ie the substandard radiator and absolutely fabricates many things, ie the pump being better than an eheim. there are better pumps than an eheim if you want to be absolutely sure it will last 20 years without fault, but i think a pretty sure chance that the pump will last 5-10 years is good enough for most people.

the reviewer clearly does not know what hes talkign about... which is just sad that now people reading his review unaware of forums such as this one will buy that product thinking it is something that it isnt.

ambient · 08-19-2002, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crane

I have a XP1700 running @1700 with a thermistor installed with the tip touching the side of the cpu core. MBM reports cpu temps of 35c while the thermistor on the chip reports 47c.

So how does that work? How are you gettin the 47c temp?

crane · 08-19-2002, 10:37 AM

I use one of those front panel displays, like "digi doc".... it has 3 tiny , flat thermistors that you can use to monitor cpu ,hdd and system temps. I superglued the sensor to the top of the cpu with just the tip touching the edge of the cpu core. I tried to attach a pic but I had no luck.... I reduced the image to 300x300 and I even tried zipping it. Oh well...

nexxo · 08-19-2002, 02:18 PM

@ redleader and Dix:

Dix is right. AC and DC are easily converted. All brush motors are, by my (admittedly not universal) knowledge DC motors; AC is converted to DC to make them go, and direction of polarity dictates the direction in which they turn. Magnetic drives, I would imagine, are DC also and polarity dictates direction of magnetic field and therefore direction of spin also.

An electrician may come along and correct me on this in the next 5 minutes, of course... but that is how I understand it to work.

...and guys. Let's be cool with eachother, OK?

jaydee · 08-24-2002, 06:03 PM

So which is it? First you post this:

Quote:

Originally posted by crane

I have a Z4 block from OCH....its the older version with the 3/8 barbs. I don't have a problem with the product or OCH. The block was well machined and needed only a slight lapping to remove some machining ripples.
It has excellent flow with a Danner 350gph mag drive using 7/16" tubing. I have a big radiator(mack truck A/C condensor) with 2 120mm fans mounted on it. Running my Duron 1.1 @ 1.90 volts and 8.5 x 150 for 1275 mhz ,chip temps are 26-28 c with a 22 degree ambient. Water temps run 2-3 degrees under chip temp.

I read the thread about the Z4 block having 1/2 inlets being screwed up.... I agree that was bad business, but hopefully that has been redesigned by now. The sump pump in the container idea sucked too....I may try something like that at home, But I wouldn't try to market it as a reliable pumping solution.

Basically... if you haven't bought something from OCH and been dissapointed...don't bust their balls just to join the bandwagon.

Now you post this:

Quote:

Originally posted by crane

The CPU thermistor is located under the chip and I made sure it had thermal compound lightly applied to the tip and it made good contact . I don't think the probe is that far off,if at all.
I have a XP1700 running @1700 with a thermistor installed with the tip touching the side of the cpu core. MBM reports cpu temps of 35c while the thermistor on the chip reports 47c. I tend to beleive the sensor I installed is more accurate,which only makes sense because of the direct core contact.

Unless you have a way of actually measuring your core temps,you are at the mercy of your onboard sensors and have to accept the temps they give you.

Wether you think my temp probe is screwy or not has nothing to do with the subject of my original post and I don't remember anyone putting you in charge of judging my credibility.

(As for the text in red: LMAO!!! Whatever...)

WTF? At least be consistant with your system specs.

Go argue how good CPUFX is when you get your stories strait.

Anyway you are all in luck as I will not be posting back for 10 or so days. Still on the road and connected at a high speed 24k in the hotel room. Bah!.....

redleader · 08-24-2002, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Magnetic drives, I would imagine, are DC also and polarity dictates direction of magnetic field and therefore direction of spin also.

They're not. Thats why DC pumps that will last more then a few weeks cost a small fortune.

About a 100 years ago there was a debate over AC or DC power. AC won because in part it makes much better motors (as well as that its much easier to make DC from AC then the other way around).

crane · 08-25-2002, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
So which is it? First you post this:

Now you post this:

(As for the text in red: LMAO!!! Whatever...)

WTF? At least be consistant with your system specs.

Go argue how good CPUFX is when you get your stories strait.

Anyway you are all in luck as I will not be posting back for 10 or so days. Still on the road and connected at a high speed 24k in the hotel room. Bah!.....

I was hoping you knew that I was talking about 2 different systems ... Duron being 1 and the XP1700 being another. Bringing up the XP1700 was a way of comparing onboard temp sensor inaccuracys.
I never argued about how good OCH was, I said I have a older Z4 block with 3/8 fittings that performs well.

I sure hope you remove your head from your ass soon as I'm getting tired of explaining everything to you 3 times. Go machine something and leave me alone.

jaydee · 08-25-2002, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crane
[b]

I never argued about how good OCH was, I said I have a older Z4 block with 3/8 fittings that performs well.

By saying it performs well is arguing how good OCH is.

How do we know if your post false temps to say it performs well????????????????????????????

The temps you showed for the Duron system are clearly false which you have admitted to in other posts by showing probe misreadings. I see no proof at all that your OCH performs well and you clearly have no clue how well a good system does perform by what you have been spewing here.

My head is well out of my ass and I would go mill something if I was home! Unfortunatly I have a job that requires to travel and I am on the road sitting in a hotel room waiting to go back to work tomorrow.

Yeah, having a life sucks so have fun while you don't have one!(not directed at crane)

crane · 08-25-2002, 11:50 PM

ehh,nevermind... its pointless to discuss this with you. Apparently someone died and made you the supreme commander of watercooling and anything anyone else says is just not up to par with you. Such a shame too... being closeminded must be a hard burden to bear.
Have fun

nexxo · 08-26-2002, 05:12 AM

uhh, Redleader,

The way I understand it the AC vs DC debate came about in 1900 when Tesla and Edison were proposing different systems to provide power for the World Fair... AC was chosen because it could offer more power, presumably.

Their argument went something like this (see http://www.nextekpower.com/acrobat/ACDC2.pdf):

Nicola Tesla; "Alternating Current will allow the transmission of electrical power to any point on the planet, either through wires or through the air, as I have demonstrated."

Thomas Edison; "Transmission of AC over long distances requires lethally high voltages, and should be outlawed. To allow Tesla and Westinghouse to proceed with their proposals is to risk untold deaths by electricide."

Tesla; "How will DC power a 1,000 horsepower electric motor as well as a single light bulb? With AC, the largest as well as the smallest load may be driven from the same line."

Edison; "The most efficient and proper electrical supply for every type of device from the light bulb to the phonograph is Direct Current at low voltage."

Tesla; "A few large AC generating plants, such as my hydroelectric station at Niagara Falls, are all you need: from these, power can be distributed easily wherever it is required."

Edison; "Small DC generating plants, as many as are required, should be built according to local needs, after the model of my power station in New York City."

AC - Alternating current could be carried over long distances via a relatively small line given an extremely high transmission voltage of 50,000 volts or above. The high voltage could then be transformed down to lower levels for residential, office and industrial use.

DC - While higher in quality and more efficient than alternating current, DC power could not be transformed or transmitted over distances via small cables without suffering significant losses through resistance.

The Result - AC power became the standard of all public utilities, overshadowing issues of safety and efficiency and forcing manufacturers to produce appliances and motors compatible with the national grid.

I'm not too sure AC makes better motors. DC generally motors don't last too long under continuous load because they have brushes, which wear out. Magnetic drive motors do not, of course, but require enough juice to generate a magnetic field strong enough to make the motor spin. High voltage (110V or 240V) does the trick nicely, hence all these mains powered aquarium pumps. Low voltage (12V to 24V) motors bypass the problem by requiring more amps. This is somewhat harder to deliver, and less efficient, but luckily a PSU will do this easily.

tokamac · 08-26-2002, 06:57 AM

AC makes better motors.... (esp. 3 phase- the most efficient) all your brushes and communtators in DC motors do is turn DC into a relatively square wave AC in the motor itself.

Tokamac

nexxo · 08-27-2002, 05:07 AM

So do magdrive motors operate on AC or DC? I would expect them to use DC...

nexxo · 08-27-2002, 05:07 AM

So do magdrive motors operate on AC or DC? I would expect them to use DC...

tokamac · 08-27-2002, 07:14 AM

nexxo,
if you gotta plug it into the wall then AC, however if you gotta get a powersupply for it then, DC. However I don't exactly know the specifics of magdrive pumps.

Tokamac

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 08:43 AM

An electric drill (AC) has brushes... (mine does, anyways)

As the history bit shows (above), AC is more efficient at being carried over large distances, and that far outweighs any disadvantages. The electrocution factor is there, wether it's AC or DC.

The bad thing about AC is that it induces EMI (electro-magnetic interference), but we've all worked around that. It's bad if you're running logic circuits, with a cheap power supply, but a little .02 uF cap across the power inputs will fix that.

Just for kicks though, you can listen to that 60 Hz hum, pretty much anywhere you are, with the right equipment.

As for motors and pumps, like Tokamac said, if you plug it in the wall, it's AC. As to which one is more efficient, that depends on a number of things, including the power source: batteries are usually the source for DC (toys), and they run well, but the load put on a battery from a DC source is constantly interrupted, and that's bad. On a power supply, the caps fill in the gaps of AC current.

Purely from a power standpoint, I'd agree that 3 phase AC motors are probably the most efficient, but I haven't seen the numbers.

Brians256 · 08-27-2002, 12:54 PM

The nice thing about DC motors is that they can provide torque over a range of RPM. Also, brushless motors reduce the friction.

I believe that DC motors (with proper motor controllers) are more efficient when the load and/or velocity requirements change. For constant load and constant velocity, three-phase motors simply rule.

Tesla was a really wierd guy, but unbelievably insightful. AC is faaaar more efficient at transferring energy to disparate devices over long distances, especially with the primitive technology available at the time (they didn't exactly have good DC to DC voltage changing devices at the time).

08-19-2002, 07:17 AM	#29
Pinkster Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: adelaide, australia Posts: 61	i dont have anything really against och. they make watercooling equiptment which i suppose now with the new pump can be considered reliable and it should offer better cooling that air cooling... which i think has a market. although the value for money of och's systems is debatable, they do now finally offer a compentent product which some buyers may be very pleased with as it is still a competent cooling system that they dont have to donstruct themselves. not everybody needs ultimate performance, and compared to air cooling, the och setup performs very well, which is just what some people want. what i do not like is that the review gives the opinion that it is the best watercooling on the market, which it most clearly is not, although och have got their act together somewhat, at least there systems are more reliable now (although i wonder if thats actually a silver plated copper block will it cause any corrosion with the aluminium radiator?), the performance is clearly not cutting edge compared to other watercooling products. the review is poor as it glosses over the deficenties of the product, ie the substandard radiator and absolutely fabricates many things, ie the pump being better than an eheim. there are better pumps than an eheim if you want to be absolutely sure it will last 20 years without fault, but i think a pretty sure chance that the pump will last 5-10 years is good enough for most people. the reviewer clearly does not know what hes talkign about... which is just sad that now people reading his review unaware of forums such as this one will buy that product thinking it is something that it isnt. __________________ whats a sig?

08-19-2002, 10:37 AM	#31
crane Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: so cal Posts: 82	I use one of those front panel displays, like "digi doc".... it has 3 tiny , flat thermistors that you can use to monitor cpu ,hdd and system temps. I superglued the sensor to the top of the cpu with just the tip touching the edge of the cpu core. I tried to attach a pic but I had no luck.... I reduced the image to 300x300 and I even tried zipping it. Oh well... __________________ dirt rules

08-19-2002, 02:18 PM	#32
nexxo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brimingham, UK Posts: 385	@ redleader and Dix: Dix is right. AC and DC are easily converted. All brush motors are, by my (admittedly not universal) knowledge DC motors; AC is converted to DC to make them go, and direction of polarity dictates the direction in which they turn. Magnetic drives, I would imagine, are DC also and polarity dictates direction of magnetic field and therefore direction of spin also. An electrician may come along and correct me on this in the next 5 minutes, of course... but that is how I understand it to work. ...and guys. Let's be cool with eachother, OK? __________________ "There is a thin line between magic and madness"

08-25-2002, 11:50 PM	#37
crane Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: so cal Posts: 82	ehh,nevermind... its pointless to discuss this with you. Apparently someone died and made you the supreme commander of watercooling and anything anyone else says is just not up to par with you. Such a shame too... being closeminded must be a hard burden to bear. Have fun __________________ dirt rules

08-26-2002, 05:12 AM	#38
nexxo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brimingham, UK Posts: 385	uhh, Redleader, The way I understand it the AC vs DC debate came about in 1900 when Tesla and Edison were proposing different systems to provide power for the World Fair... AC was chosen because it could offer more power, presumably. Their argument went something like this (see http://www.nextekpower.com/acrobat/ACDC2.pdf): Nicola Tesla; "Alternating Current will allow the transmission of electrical power to any point on the planet, either through wires or through the air, as I have demonstrated." Thomas Edison; "Transmission of AC over long distances requires lethally high voltages, and should be outlawed. To allow Tesla and Westinghouse to proceed with their proposals is to risk untold deaths by electricide." Tesla; "How will DC power a 1,000 horsepower electric motor as well as a single light bulb? With AC, the largest as well as the smallest load may be driven from the same line." Edison; "The most efficient and proper electrical supply for every type of device from the light bulb to the phonograph is Direct Current at low voltage." Tesla; "A few large AC generating plants, such as my hydroelectric station at Niagara Falls, are all you need: from these, power can be distributed easily wherever it is required." Edison; "Small DC generating plants, as many as are required, should be built according to local needs, after the model of my power station in New York City." AC - Alternating current could be carried over long distances via a relatively small line given an extremely high transmission voltage of 50,000 volts or above. The high voltage could then be transformed down to lower levels for residential, office and industrial use. DC - While higher in quality and more efficient than alternating current, DC power could not be transformed or transmitted over distances via small cables without suffering significant losses through resistance. The Result - AC power became the standard of all public utilities, overshadowing issues of safety and efficiency and forcing manufacturers to produce appliances and motors compatible with the national grid. I'm not too sure AC makes better motors. DC generally motors don't last too long under continuous load because they have brushes, which wear out. Magnetic drive motors do not, of course, but require enough juice to generate a magnetic field strong enough to make the motor spin. High voltage (110V or 240V) does the trick nicely, hence all these mains powered aquarium pumps. Low voltage (12V to 24V) motors bypass the problem by requiring more amps. This is somewhat harder to deliver, and less efficient, but luckily a PSU will do this easily. __________________ "There is a thin line between magic and madness"

08-26-2002, 06:57 AM	#39
tokamac Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: G-Town NC Posts: 51	AC makes better motors.... (esp. 3 phase- the most efficient) all your brushes and communtators in DC motors do is turn DC into a relatively square wave AC in the motor itself. Tokamac

08-27-2002, 05:07 AM	#40
nexxo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brimingham, UK Posts: 385	So do magdrive motors operate on AC or DC? I would expect them to use DC... __________________ "There is a thin line between magic and madness"

08-27-2002, 07:14 AM	#42
tokamac Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: G-Town NC Posts: 51	nexxo, if you gotta plug it into the wall then AC, however if you gotta get a powersupply for it then, DC. However I don't exactly know the specifics of magdrive pumps. Tokamac

08-27-2002, 08:43 AM	#43
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	An electric drill (AC) has brushes... (mine does, anyways) As the history bit shows (above), AC is more efficient at being carried over large distances, and that far outweighs any disadvantages. The electrocution factor is there, wether it's AC or DC. The bad thing about AC is that it induces EMI (electro-magnetic interference), but we've all worked around that. It's bad if you're running logic circuits, with a cheap power supply, but a little .02 uF cap across the power inputs will fix that. Just for kicks though, you can listen to that 60 Hz hum, pretty much anywhere you are, with the right equipment. As for motors and pumps, like Tokamac said, if you plug it in the wall, it's AC. As to which one is more efficient, that depends on a number of things, including the power source: batteries are usually the source for DC (toys), and they run well, but the load put on a battery from a DC source is constantly interrupted, and that's bad. On a power supply, the caps fill in the gaps of AC current. Purely from a power standpoint, I'd agree that 3 phase AC motors are probably the most efficient, but I haven't seen the numbers. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2002, 12:54 PM	#44
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	The nice thing about DC motors is that they can provide torque over a range of RPM. Also, brushless motors reduce the friction. I believe that DC motors (with proper motor controllers) are more efficient when the load and/or velocity requirements change. For constant load and constant velocity, three-phase motors simply rule. Tesla was a really wierd guy, but unbelievably insightful. AC is faaaar more efficient at transferring energy to disparate devices over long distances, especially with the primitive technology available at the time (they didn't exactly have good DC to DC voltage changing devices at the time).

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