Water Cooling Dying? - Page 2

mfpmax · 10-15-2002, 12:53 AM

Next version of MS Office may require 4 GHz for that stupid Helper Paper Clip...cause you know it'll be real time 3D

Heavy_Equipment · 10-15-2002, 01:21 AM

No no no...that's 4 GB of ram, because that stupid paperclip will hog 3.8

As far as any early indications I've seen go, Doom3 will be in the 700-800 MHz range too. Yes, more CPU means better playability...but I've never seen the recommended CPU be double the minimum requirement. Even the UT2003 recommendation is 1 GHz...less than 300 MHz above the min.

The only use for OCing in my future, is when the DDR2 stuff is out, the next batch of games is coming out, and all my current hardware is junk. I'll OC it til it bleeds, just to keep it working, at a time when oem POS's will run circle's around it. Then, of course, I'll need the heavy duty cooling again.

Full circle.

Joe · 10-15-2002, 07:26 AM

Thats all about video card, I seriously doubt Doom3 will tax any1.4Ghz+ CPU's... Get a good video card, OC it and you are good to go.

The accessories in systems to more of the work than the CPU now, so they are fast becoming the focus of tweaking and tuning more than the CPU

pHaestus · 10-15-2002, 05:24 PM

Something I was thinking about today. The DIY blocks have gotten REALLY good of late, and it is the "one offs" that seem to be pushing the direction that waterblock design heads. Most of these blocks would be prohibitively expensive (100+) to produce in any quantity. At the same time, it seems that end users are finally moving towards the mfgrs with some actual R&D (Swiftech and the german companies). Anyway my point is that it seems like a hard market for the typical "I have a mill and a pretty standard design and I want to sell some $50 blocks" machinist to break into. And for the R&D dollars that some companies spend to pay off, they have to aggressively gain market share.

I heard Koolance ships 1000+ units a month. I don't know if that is steady, increasing, or decreasing though.

bigben2k · 10-15-2002, 05:33 PM

For inspiration's sake, I recommend this site:
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/

No fans whatsoever. Watercooling the following:
-PSU
-northbridge
-video card
-HDD

The design is pretty unique, but there's enough info to "keep going". There's still room for improvement.

I for one intend to, and I will certainly keep the reliability factor in mind. Now if I could only find a quick-disconnect fitting that would fit at the end of a 5 1/4 bay...

mfpmax · 10-15-2002, 05:37 PM

BladeRunner's work is just a "wee bit" too much for me...

BillA · 10-15-2002, 06:41 PM

not sure I would agree with JoeK's whys,
but I too think there may be some clouds on watercooling's horizon

consider the impending advent of AMD IHSs (P4s already have such of course),
and the very high (100lbf ?) clamping loads

the IHS, while designed to protect the chip, will to some extent radially diffuse some of the CPUs heat; while at the same time reduce quantitatively the maximum temperature that the wb bp can see due to the thermal impedance of the additional TIM joint
and
the very high clamping loads (in conjunction with the larger surface of the IHS) will preclude the trend towards thinner bps

these 2 factors will likely cause the 'top performers' to be even more tightly grouped than at present
and
limit the OCing advantage now attributed to WCing

I don't OC so have NO DATA (dare I admit such ?)

what I would very much like to see (pHaestus ? JoeK ?)
is a test of a P4 that is benchmarked while the CPU is held at different temperatures

or has this already been done and I don't know where to find it ?

addendum: bladerunner's work is an inspiration to WCers

pHaestus · 10-15-2002, 07:55 PM

Joe has a P4. Maybe we can peer pressure him into air cooling and water cooling + pelt

C'mon Joe it's for science!

Joe · 10-15-2002, 08:01 PM

I need a damn motherboard!!!

I cant verywell run the CPU with no mobo can I? ( not into just sending 12v into the core raw

hehehe)

BillA · 10-15-2002, 08:03 PM

hurry, hurry

the fate of our civilvision (sic) is in the balence

Joe · 10-15-2002, 08:12 PM

Bill I say sorta the same thing about getting a masters degree in brewing:

"Finnaly a degree that you can help the rest of man kind with"

hehehe

mfpmax · 10-15-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by unregistered
hurry, hurry

the fate of our civilvision (sic) is in the balence

civilization

Yes hurry...get some voltage regs and line um up so you get the proper + and - voltages...

But make sure to point the heatsinks on them.

BillA · 10-15-2002, 08:17 PM

no mfpmax

civilvision was said, and civilvision was meant
(an allusion to something else as well)

mfpmax · 10-15-2002, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by unregistered
no mfpmax

civilvision was said, and civilvision was meant
(an allusion to something else as well)

oh well, what about intellivision..

ah the old days...

Kevin · 10-18-2002, 04:23 AM

I think sorta the opposite of Joe. I think that because processors are getting tougher and tougher to cool, OEMs will eventually try and implement some form of H2O cooling. Right now it is getting more and more basic to put together a kit... and processors are getting harder and harder to cool. There is no way a company like Dell can get away with selling a computer w/ a delta fan in it. It just won't fly. But considering that 90% of their user base will never open a computer, I wouldn't be surprsied to see them watercool in the future (3 - 5 years... not any time super soon). Just my opinion...
-Kev
The bigger question we can extrapolate from your post is whether or not overclocking is dead. I, to some degree, feel it has died about a year ago. I still read overclockers.com every day, but it is hardly for "overclocking" news. No overclock ever gave me the same thrill as when I was able to find datasheets for the motherboard in my packard bell and o/c from 166 to 200 mhz. My celeron 300A to 504 mhz came close... but no cigar. Since then, just been moderate speed bumps... Granted, they are nice and i'll take them and will continue to try and overclock my processors. But if it doesn't overclock too much, who cares....

g.l.amour · 10-18-2002, 05:47 AM

from tomshardware sic

"it's to be expected that the thermal power dissipation will increase to somewhere between 80 to 85 watt. Gone are the days when this was a rarity: Intel's processors in the next two years should also have a thermal dissipation of 100 watt maximum, according to internal sources. Because of this, thermal design, and above all the even distribution of heat generation, will be playing an increasingly important role. "

this is an exerpt from their hammer board 'review'. judging we are now at about 70-80 W, going to 100 is going to be fun with normal HSF's.

for the unz interested, original piece originates from here:

http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboar...017/index.html

pHaestus · 10-18-2002, 09:01 AM

Kevin:
The bulk of AMD chips are rather boring to o/c (they do their PR I guess) , but I seem to pick up about 1 a year that is of the "old breed". AYJHAR 1.0@1.65, AGOIA 1600+ at 1900MHz (2200+?), etc.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I get a lot of enjoyment from getting that last 100MHz out of the chip stably. Lapping celerons back then, voltage mods et al. now.

PlawsWorth · 10-19-2002, 03:33 PM

I think your are right Joe.

10-15-2002, 12:53 AM	#26
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	Next version of MS Office may require 4 GHz for that stupid Helper Paper Clip...cause you know it'll be real time 3D __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-15-2002, 07:26 AM	#28
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Thats all about video card, I seriously doubt Doom3 will tax any1.4Ghz+ CPU's... Get a good video card, OC it and you are good to go. The accessories in systems to more of the work than the CPU now, so they are fast becoming the focus of tweaking and tuning more than the CPU __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-15-2002, 05:33 PM	#30
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	For inspiration's sake, I recommend this site: http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/ No fans whatsoever. Watercooling the following: -PSU -northbridge -video card -HDD The design is pretty unique, but there's enough info to "keep going". There's still room for improvement. I for one intend to, and I will certainly keep the reliability factor in mind. Now if I could only find a quick-disconnect fitting that would fit at the end of a 5 1/4 bay... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-15-2002, 05:37 PM	#31
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	BladeRunner's work is just a "wee bit" too much for me... __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-15-2002, 08:01 PM	#34
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	I need a damn motherboard!!! I cant verywell run the CPU with no mobo can I? ( not into just sending 12v into the core raw hehehe) __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-15-2002, 01:21 AM	#27
Heavy_Equipment Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Newmarket, Ontario, Canada Posts: 282	No no no...that's 4 GB of ram, because that stupid paperclip will hog 3.8 As far as any early indications I've seen go, Doom3 will be in the 700-800 MHz range too. Yes, more CPU means better playability...but I've never seen the recommended CPU be double the minimum requirement. Even the UT2003 recommendation is 1 GHz...less than 300 MHz above the min. The only use for OCing in my future, is when the DDR2 stuff is out, the next batch of games is coming out, and all my current hardware is junk. I'll OC it til it bleeds, just to keep it working, at a time when oem POS's will run circle's around it. Then, of course, I'll need the heavy duty cooling again. Full circle.

10-15-2002, 05:24 PM	#29
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Something I was thinking about today. The DIY blocks have gotten REALLY good of late, and it is the "one offs" that seem to be pushing the direction that waterblock design heads. Most of these blocks would be prohibitively expensive (100+) to produce in any quantity. At the same time, it seems that end users are finally moving towards the mfgrs with some actual R&D (Swiftech and the german companies). Anyway my point is that it seems like a hard market for the typical "I have a mill and a pretty standard design and I want to sell some $50 blocks" machinist to break into. And for the R&D dollars that some companies spend to pay off, they have to aggressively gain market share. I heard Koolance ships 1000+ units a month. I don't know if that is steady, increasing, or decreasing though.

10-15-2002, 06:41 PM	#32
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	not sure I would agree with JoeK's whys, but I too think there may be some clouds on watercooling's horizon consider the impending advent of AMD IHSs (P4s already have such of course), and the very high (100lbf ?) clamping loads the IHS, while designed to protect the chip, will to some extent radially diffuse some of the CPUs heat; while at the same time reduce quantitatively the maximum temperature that the wb bp can see due to the thermal impedance of the additional TIM joint and the very high clamping loads (in conjunction with the larger surface of the IHS) will preclude the trend towards thinner bps these 2 factors will likely cause the 'top performers' to be even more tightly grouped than at present and limit the OCing advantage now attributed to WCing I don't OC so have NO DATA (dare I admit such ?) what I would very much like to see (pHaestus ? JoeK ?) is a test of a P4 that is benchmarked while the CPU is held at different temperatures or has this already been done and I don't know where to find it ? addendum: bladerunner's work is an inspiration to WCers

10-15-2002, 07:55 PM	#33
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Joe has a P4. Maybe we can peer pressure him into air cooling and water cooling + pelt C'mon Joe it's for science!

10-15-2002, 08:03 PM	#35
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	hurry, hurry the fate of our civilvision (sic) is in the balence

10-15-2002, 08:12 PM	#36
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Bill I say sorta the same thing about getting a masters degree in brewing: "Finnaly a degree that you can help the rest of man kind with" hehehe __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-15-2002, 08:17 PM	#38
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	no mfpmax civilvision was said, and civilvision was meant (an allusion to something else as well)

10-18-2002, 04:23 AM	#40
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	I think sorta the opposite of Joe. I think that because processors are getting tougher and tougher to cool, OEMs will eventually try and implement some form of H2O cooling. Right now it is getting more and more basic to put together a kit... and processors are getting harder and harder to cool. There is no way a company like Dell can get away with selling a computer w/ a delta fan in it. It just won't fly. But considering that 90% of their user base will never open a computer, I wouldn't be surprsied to see them watercool in the future (3 - 5 years... not any time super soon). Just my opinion... -Kev The bigger question we can extrapolate from your post is whether or not overclocking is dead. I, to some degree, feel it has died about a year ago. I still read overclockers.com every day, but it is hardly for "overclocking" news. No overclock ever gave me the same thrill as when I was able to find datasheets for the motherboard in my packard bell and o/c from 166 to 200 mhz. My celeron 300A to 504 mhz came close... but no cigar. Since then, just been moderate speed bumps... Granted, they are nice and i'll take them and will continue to try and overclock my processors. But if it doesn't overclock too much, who cares.... __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

10-18-2002, 05:47 AM	#41
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	from tomshardware sic "it's to be expected that the thermal power dissipation will increase to somewhere between 80 to 85 watt. Gone are the days when this was a rarity: Intel's processors in the next two years should also have a thermal dissipation of 100 watt maximum, according to internal sources. Because of this, thermal design, and above all the even distribution of heat generation, will be playing an increasingly important role. " this is an exerpt from their hammer board 'review'. judging we are now at about 70-80 W, going to 100 is going to be fun with normal HSF's. for the unz interested, original piece originates from here: http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboar...017/index.html

10-18-2002, 09:01 AM	#42
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Kevin: The bulk of AMD chips are rather boring to o/c (they do their PR I guess) , but I seem to pick up about 1 a year that is of the "old breed". AYJHAR 1.0@1.65, AGOIA 1600+ at 1900MHz (2200+?), etc. Maybe I am in the minority, but I get a lot of enjoyment from getting that last 100MHz out of the chip stably. Lapping celerons back then, voltage mods et al. now.

10-19-2002, 03:33 PM	#43
PlawsWorth Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 248	yup I think your are right Joe. __________________ cocaine addict

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