Why doesn't TC-4 have a copper top?

[BillA]

lol
well, the lesson is indeed 'very little'

suggest looking up the definition/composition of "polypropylene"

no more lessons, please

[wymjym]

Originally posted by Fixittt
Tell me if aluminum isnt as duarable as copper.

If it wasnt think swiftech would be using it as well?

You asked for it, so here it is.
Aluminum isn’t as durable as copper in certain applications.
Oh, by the way...which type-grade of aluminum? Which type-grade of copper?
What are the block guys milling? I bet the easiest (softest AL) and then anodizing a harder coating onto it.
Swiftech is doing aluminum because they are comfortable (at this point in time) with the economics of these pieces. If they find in 6 months that chunks of corrosion start showing up in computer water cooler lines across the states they will assess the situation and take action.
I had an old non-anodized AL block that worked great for a year or so, and then it started to show corrosion. All efforts taken were ultimately in vain and a new block milled from 6061 was used as a replacement. As a study I checked it every month or so and the first place it started to corrode was in an area where the surface was marred, where the threads had been cut and were not protected (sealed) by the fitting. I used to work in the after market auto industry..there are many types of AL. Anodizing can take on another mind-boggling discussion.
wj

[WinFlex]

Uh, polycarbonate (see PM)... not polypropylene. Big difference! btw, billa, I admire the block testing procedure you developed and display over at overclockers.com!
Also, while 6061 is very easily machined, it has bad electrochemical properties... for waterblock design, I would look to other aluminum alloys (or just copper ) Check the metal stock section over at www.mcmaster.com ... they always have nice descriptions of the different applications and characteristics of thE materials they sell!

[MadDogMe]

Lexan is a brilliant substance to use for block tops, if it was'nt so expensive, it's the stuff those funky vandal~proof(ish) bus shelters are made out of, so if you see any bus shelters with 'ikle squares missing', you'll know why ...

99% of problems are user error with overtightening...

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Fixit, I guess you mean hose clips/ties eh?. Wonder how it performs in triple parallel?, better than most'd imagine I recon as long as the water is cooled adequatly...

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BillA, I don't understand what is contrary to fact?...

I meant there is'nt enough known about corrosion to gauge whether you'll be fuxored by it, have a small problem with it, have it to a degree that's not important(to you), or won't 'see' it at all. so it's best to avoid it (by not mixing disimulars) rather than deal with/risk an unknown...

[WinFlex]

Billa and I have started a separate discussion on the Lexan issue over in a new thread.... come on over and see our previous correspondance and contribute your thoughts and oppinions on the topic!
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=6044

[BillA]

MDM

"contrary to fact" was wrt hard data demonstrating that the corrosion of anodized Al would NOT occur

(my normal convoluted phraselogy)

[Fixittt]

I just think that way to much emphasis is on "What could happen if" with way to much data present. Instead we should be looking at........ "What wont happen if these steps are followed"

Instead of all the negatives about certain issues, look at ways of making what we do have and like, actually WORK. Instead of loading it with dynamite and blowing it up before it ever can work.

to much negative.............

[MadDogMe]

Any chance of a link to oc~aus 'silverprop corrosion spectacular'?, I searched without sucsess :shrug: ...


Edit, Did I say that though BillA?...

EDIT~EDIT, I personaly would never use alu & Cu, It's not worth the chance of corrosion to me, so I'm not so intested in overcoming a problem (potential!) I can simply avoid...

I have thought about using enameled (stove) finished alu before though, what do you think?...

[BillA]

link to oc~aus 'silverprop corrosion spectacular'

a coating is a coating, what is perfect ?
(inside corners, over edges, inside threads ??)

Fixittt
I hear what you are saying, just don't totally agree
a corrosion inhibitor MUST be used with Al
but I am quite put-off with Water Wetter due to the slimeing (sp ?)
and all anodizing is NOT of good quality, and who can tell what that quality may be

many questions, few answers

I do understand why Al is attractive, just always attentive to its everpresent corrosion potential

[Fixittt]

Bill now we are getting somewhere. I think Im gonna print out all the questions and go to radio shack. I hear they have answers.


Granted you cannot tell what kind of job the anadizing is, that is where we as a group can reley on one another. If someone doesnt have a specific block in hand, someone here does. I can speak from only experiance when saying...... I have had wonderfull secess with mine. Everything is still nice and clean. Maybe a little slimey but good still.

Its not really fair to anyone just to point out that *It should never be used because *Incert high tech babble that most everyone doesnt understand any* see where I am coming from? Sure point out the facts. But put a silver linning in there too.

Bill, I value your data. I just dont agree with how its presented sometimes. But the data is still there. Keep up the good work as well. This is not a personal attack on anyone, but more like a comunity as a whole. Lets get posative.

[MadDogMe]

"many questions, few answers so best take precautions" was my take...

Question!, How dissimular a metal is Solder compared to copper?, is there corrosion between the two?...

Does WW slime even when used in the correct/recommended proportions?...

Is molybendum(sp) available comercialy or is it ''owned' by whoever manufactures WW?...

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I've thought about coating the ALu top with silicon sealant as well, but surely painting the ALu is a better option than Anodising it?, I mean it does'nt have to be microns thin does it?, just uniformly~conformed so it seals well?...

[gmat]

Originally posted by MadDogMe

Does WW slime even when used in the correct/recommended proportions?...

That, is an interesting question. I experienced 'sliming' effect with WW twice already, now i'm wondering.
How many ppl did have the same experience ?

Originally posted by MadDogMe

Is molybendum(sp) available comercialy or is it ''owned' by whoever manufactures WW?...

If you're refering to Molybdenum: it's an atomic element, symbol is Mo, atomic number is 42. No one owns atoms
http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...xt/Mo/key.html

[MadDogMe]

Anyone have any veiws on the disimularity of solder and copper?...


Cheers g~mat!, I thought molly~B~denim was 'the magic ingrediant' of PI...

[jaydee]

I see two points raised about why to use AL over Copper for the tops.

1) Weight.
This is IMO a non issue. If a Maze 2 is not to heavy then this will not be to heavy. As (I think) the demisions would be pretty much the same. Even the amount of copper removed from the base would be similar.
2) Price.
Well you have to consider this two ways. One the added cost of the Copper which is about $3.50 providing he has as good of suppliers as I do which should not be that hard.
Then the added cost of the anodizing the AL. I have no idea how much that cost but it costs something even if they do it themselfs. Lets just assume another $.50. So it will be roughly $3 extra.

Someone mentioned harder to mill, but that is irrelevant, this is the top, it only has holes in it.

The question is would you rather have a anodized AL top or a Copper top and possibly pay a little more for it? I would like to at least see it as an option being they are removable. Why not?

As for the clear tops, what the guy above said! I use cheap acrylic and yet to crack a top, with real poly there is no real reason why it should crack unless you use a power drill to put the screws in.

[BillA]

gmat

sliming with WW (Water Wetter, eh ?):
almost 3 yrs experience says it is strictly time related
after 4 - 6 mos it seems to start coming out of solution (it is a synthetic oil) and then will rapidly build up, then start to slough off

with my test bench it is a disaster as I use needle valves for flow control and they won't work with ropy tendrils of goop cloging them up

I would suspect that any of the 'micro fin' wbs would have a performance hit over time

I experimented with several other additives, one was a similar oil, one foamed, one did not seem to work
I have no good answer (use no inhibitor now - no Al in system)

perhaps mota will comment, he has lots of experience with these

[gmat]

yeah Water Wetter. My bottle of WW is 2 year old and produces a sticky white goo after 12h in the loop. And yes i've got mainly copper (and brass barbs).
To "wet" water i've moved to a home made mixture:
- a rinsing agent (for dish washing machines). Kills the surface tension and gets rid of bubbles. *Very* efficient. And cheap.
- an anti bacterial agent. Currently dish washing liquid (for hand washing) with a "anti bacterial" red label. Does not seem to work very well...
I'll look into some other product for the 'life-killing' agent.
I've been running like that for a few months, and my copper blocks innards are clean.

[Pug]

Couple of bones to throw into the discussion -
(for those who don't know me, I'm aka Infidel on ArsForums, and I run www.wizarddesigns.co.uk)

Poly tops: I've been selling blocks with poly tops for six months and the only time I ever hear of them cracking is when people use the wrong fittings - ie. taper thread fittings with ptfe tape in parallel thread tops.
It doesn't take much thought to see how this can occur.

Mixed metal setups: I use (and have done for the past six months) an anodised alu res, two anodised HDD coolers and an aluminium cored radiator.
This is combined with 3 poly/copper blocks.
I use a combination of polypropylene glycol coolant, distilled water and UV dye and only changed my water after four months when my UV dye turned up (I had previously just dropped a highlighter pen in the res).
I have no signs of corrosion anywhere in my loop (although I obviously cannot inspect the radiator internally).

[dacooltech]

I've been using anodized Aluminum topped Swiftech blocks for years now, and never had any problems with them at all.
I've been offering anodized Aluminum topped Swiftech blocks at the store, and didn't hear a single complaint from any of my customers.

So is D-Tek Aluminum top any different? Absolutely NOT!

Forget about anodized aluminum tops, many companies are offering aluminum radiators (now search if they're even anodized or not ) , anodized aluminum HDD blocks, reservoirs etc.

Some customers are using full copper water blocks with aluminum radiators (like Swiftech 's Hayden radiator or Innovatek radiators) wihout even knowing it. Or with anodized aluminum reservoirs, hard drive water blocks etc.

Is aluminum top or copper better?
Guess it's a matter of preference.
I prefer anodized aluminum top. Aluminum top is lighter, and looks much better than copper in the long run because it doesn't get tarnished like copper does.

Like every other water cooling store we recommend mixing Zerex RSC or Redline WW with distilled water at a ratio of 5% Additive and 95% water, no matter if the block has a copper top or aluminum top.

just my 2 cents

Bruce

[BillA]

I agree that aluminum can work well, with a corrosion inhibitor of course
and my personal preference in inhibitors is certainally one of the glycols at 20% or so

still would like to find a (good) non-glycol inhibitor though

[theetruscan]

Originally posted by unregistered
I agree that aluminum can work well, with a corrosion inhibitor of course
and my personal preference in inhibitors is certainally one of the glycols at 20% or so

still would like to find a (good) non-glycol inhibitor though

Do you have experience with the Valvoline Zyrex Racing Super Coolant sedimenting as Water Wetter does? I was about to use it in my system, because I would like to avoid Radiator Corrosion inhibitor (Antifreeze + some sacrificial metal I think not sure), but I am running a microchannel block and would like to be able to avoid disassembly to remove sediment.

[BillA]

WW is not 'sedimenting", it is coming out of solution and coagulating, coating all the surfaces 'till it starts sloughing off

I've no experience with Valvoline Zyrex Racing Super Coolant
what is in it ?

the ONLY metal that will work as a sacrificial anode is PURE Mg, no alloy
and then where does its corrosion product go ?

use glycol I'd say
we need to get mota to chime in

[theetruscan]

I found a material spec sheet for Radiator corrosion inhibitor (I am sure there are lots of them), this one contained Ethelyne Glycol and Zinc 4.5% by mass.

Zerex Racing Super Coolant, I can find no useful information on. It is a warm weather corrosion inhibitor with properties superficially similar to Water wetter. It is used in Classic Cars that tend to overheat as it "increases heat transfer by 40% compared to water" when mixed with water. Great, fat lot of good that information does us. I'll keep looking, and go out and buy a bottle tomorrow, see what I can find out.

[MadDogMe]

So is D-Tek Aluminum top any different? Absolutely NOT!

Don't Swiftech (mostly) use nylon push fittings?, not brass?. AFAIK it's the metal to metal (Alu > Brass) instinces where corrosion is worst/antagonised is'nt it?...

PS, Swiftech uses nylon/PVC barbs for it's '1/2inch barb' models as well don't they?, this would go a long way towards keeping the anodise finish integral would'nt it?...

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by unregistered
I agree that aluminum can work well, with a corrosion inhibitor of course
and my personal preference in inhibitors is certainally one of the glycols at 20% or so

still would like to find a (good) non-glycol inhibitor though

BillA: you might be interested by Silkolene ProCCA.

Contents are:
Highly refined mineral oil: 40 - 50%
Diethoxyethanol: <5%
Fatty Alcohol ethoxylate: <5%
Sodium Sulphonate: 5 - 15%

So no glycols (your first criteria). As for its effectiveness (#2), hmale uses it: you might be familiar with his rig, that has a copper block (?) and a SS pump. He reports that the coolant is still completely clear, after four months, but that's all I know.

[dacooltech]

Don't Swiftech (mostly) use nylon push fittings?, not brass?. AFAIK it's the metal to metal (Alu > Brass) instinces where corrosion is worst/antagonised is'nt it?...

Swiftech used to use steel 90 degree SpeedFit type fittings on their blocks. For the last couple of years they're using John Guest SpeedFit Acetal Celcon fittings (or actually cartridges) on their blocks, other than the MCW462-UH. For the UH they use 1/2"NPT to 1/2"OD nylon barbs.

FYI D-Tek is using "Chrome" 1/4"NPT to 1/2"OD barbs, not regular brass fittings.

I agree that aluminum can work well, with a corrosion inhibitor of course

Thanks for agreeing with me on this one Bill. I also wanted to point out that focusing only on the anodized aluminum top can be misleading, since there're other aluminum components commonly used on the same loop.
What's your take on the other aluminum components like a Hayden radiator used in the same loop with copper components?

Since I've always used copper radis (mostly Black Ice radis and some HeaterCores), I don't have much experience with aluminum radis.

BigBen2k - Silkolene ProCCA looks very interesting. I remember Hmale mentioning it some time ago, but guess i didn't pay too much attention to it. Thanks for pointing it out

"...Mixed at a 1% ratio to any type water" Now this sounds nice.

I spoke to Hmale, and he is extremely happy with it. He's sending me some so I'll give it a try and let you guys know. ..

Bruce