microfin wb made from akasa ak360/370 - Page 2

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 04:55 AM

i saw the pic on the thermaltake website.
mine should be with me monday.

i will do a design on my 3d program when i get chance.

finding the copper is a bit of a problem at the moment but i will keep looking. do you know where i can get some ?

i was thinking of using a 10mm piece of acrylic with a round hole on one side cut through to a thinnner longer shape on the other side.

again i will do some designs later.

thanks for the info

lee

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 06:49 AM

here is some thing i quickley put together today.

take the thermaltake copper skived base and remove the fins until they cover the top of the p4.

lower the fins down to 5mm

make a base plate to the height of the fins.

make a middle plate with a jet design to spray the incomming water over the full width of the fins.

made this clear for the example so you can see the shape.

this would be round on one side and oval on the other.

put a top on it.

bigben2k · 03-14-2003, 08:38 AM

What a shame: I can't see the pic. Otherwise, it looks good!

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 08:40 AM

i couldnt get to my usualy image hosting site from work. i will move it when i get home.

MadDogMe · 03-14-2003, 12:07 PM

It's what I'd do in your shoes

. My 'ideal' version would be a radial pin block made from a cross cut TT 1U P4 HSF, it would be very low profile...

I would try to work out the area of waterspace between the fins (seen 'end on') to make it slightly less than diametre of the tube feeding the block, so I can work out how high to make the fins without making a pressure drop in the block...

BB2K can probably help you out on the 'jet'/orrofice dimensions, what the ideal depth would be (thickness of 'jet' plate). There's an 'ideal' max lenght I believe?, where going past it is'nt benificial?...

PS, you could make everything but the T/T base plate out of Lexan if you wanted...

bigben2k · 03-14-2003, 12:22 PM

I can see!

You might consider adding:
1-flow seperators, to direct the water into the channels, instead of letting hit the top of the fins (completely optional, your fins are already pretty thin).

2-Make the nozzle in such a way that the outlet extends straight up a bit: it'll help keep the flow straight.

This is headed in the right direction.

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe
It's what I'd do in your shoes . My 'ideal' version would be a radial pin block made from a cross cut TT 1U P4 HSF, it would be very low profile...

I would try to work out the area of waterspace between the fins (seen 'end on') to make it slightly less than diametre of the tube feeding the block, so I can work out how high to make the fins without making a pressure drop in the block...

BB2K can probably help you out on the 'jet'/orrofice dimensions, what the ideal depth would be (thickness of 'jet' plate). There's an 'ideal' max lenght I believe?, where going past it is'nt benificial?...

PS, you could make everything but the T/T base plate out of Lexan if you wanted...

can you explain what you meen by radial pin block ?

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 01:35 PM

so what about this

i clamped this into the base of my wb you can see the water would spray across the width of all the fins

and without it

bigben2k · 03-14-2003, 02:09 PM

You're in business! Nice going!

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I can see!

You might consider adding:
1-flow seperators, to direct the water into the channels, instead of letting hit the top of the fins (completely optional, your fins are already pretty thin).

2-Make the nozzle in such a way that the outlet extends straight up a bit: it'll help keep the flow straight.

This is headed in the right direction.

can you explain the flow seperators ?

i just looked at volenti's thread and he made one almost the same as this ! i didnt know that

bigben2k · 03-14-2003, 02:50 PM

Right.

In Cathar's design, the fins are 1mm thick, but they are cut square at the top, in such a way that it forces the water to spread out, as in comes in through the inlet. In my block, it's a thermal nightmare.

In your block, like I said, your fins are already pretty thin, so this is probably a non-issue. If you really want to do something about it, you could sand those fins to a sharp edge.

Nice going. Can't wait to see results!

MadDogMe · 03-14-2003, 02:53 PM

I want to cut thin lines across the fins so there are loads of little 'pins' sticking up, then I want to have it so water enters from the centre and flows outwards in all directions (see BB2K's 'RADIUS' thread)...

****************************************

That top is the right idea, it just wants to be more 'gradual/linear' (can't think of the right word!), so the circle opening flows into the 'slot shape'. Imagine getting a copper tube and squashing the bottom into a slot then stretching it to the right width so there's a smooth transition all along the change of shape

...

Just open it out/smooth it with a needle file and you'll be good to go!...

leejsmith · 03-14-2003, 03:00 PM

thanks for that.

If only i could get some 20mm acrylic or lexan so i dont have to bond layers together, there is a shoe shop in the city that has some that would be perfect but i guess they wont like me taking thinks from there displays

just have to wait for the new base so i can make a start.

thanks for your help bigben and maddog. lets hope i can make a good job of it.

that was a quick test to see if it would work maddog.

Lee

leejsmith · 03-15-2003, 01:55 PM

so i had some free time today and couldnt wait for the new base to be deliverd so i put together a new version of the old block.It's a bit rough and i made some mistakes in a couple of places but i know now what problems i have before i make it for the new base.

(lots of pics btw sorry if it's slow)

close up of each layer

the is the base i made the left right sides angled so the water does not just hit the side of the walls and it should help direct the water out of the block.

middle layer has the jet in the center to spray the width of the fin area. I used a counter sink in one side and a dremel with a cutting bit on the other.

and the top. I cut the middle barb down a little as they are a fraction over 10mm to allow for the jet design.

here you can see the bottom 2 layers and the position of the jet over the gap of the fins.

i dont have any of the acrylic glue so i cant stick it together yet

it leaks like a trooper but the jet looks great.

Lee

leejsmith · 04-02-2003, 07:11 AM

had some bad news today.
The thermaltake p4 skived cooler i wanted to make the new base still has not arrived and the theoverclockingstore tell me they expect delays of at least 2-3 weeks.
So i changed the order the the akasa ak360 again.

msv · 04-02-2003, 09:00 AM

Pouring some gasoline to the fire:
In this WaterWetter performance increasing discussion (I use WaterWwtter, but on the other hand my water cooling experience is less than two weeks), has anyone meassured any temps with and without water additives?
What do the field tests show?
Theoreticals are good at pointing out directions, but what do real life experiences say in this topic?
regards
Mikael S.

pHaestus · 04-02-2003, 09:21 AM

I think Bill's work makes it pretty clear that JUST the TIM joint C/W is near to 0.1C/W, so temps 3-4C above water don't make much sense. Regarding Asus probe measurements, you can find my comments on how seldom they equate with reality all over the web.

It's a very nice looking block tho. The gap in the center (for socket clip) is sadly in the worst possible spot from a design perspective. Maybe the nozzle will somewhat help tho; get high velocity water right onto baseplate at that point.

leejsmith · 04-02-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by msv
Pouring some gasoline to the fire:
In this WaterWetter performance increasing discussion (I use WaterWwtter, but on the other hand my water cooling experience is less than two weeks), has anyone meassured any temps with and without water additives?
What do the field tests show?
Theoreticals are good at pointing out directions, but what do real life experiences say in this topic?
regards
Mikael S.

hi msv,

why not start a new thread asking the above question. This thread is to help we with the design of the water block and would like to stop it from loosing it's direction.

thanks

Lee

pHaestus · 04-02-2003, 09:27 AM

OH almost forgot. Here is a fairly good discussion on water wetter:

http://www.bunkermentality.net/wetter.html

More controlled than most "tests" I have seen on topic on intareweb.

leejsmith · 04-02-2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pHaestus
I think Bill's work makes it pretty clear that JUST the TIM joint C/W is near to 0.1C/W, so temps 3-4C above water don't make much sense. Regarding Asus probe measurements, you can find my comments on how seldom they equate with reality all over the web.

It's a very nice looking block tho. The gap in the center (for socket clip) is sadly in the worst possible spot from a design perspective. Maybe the nozzle will somewhat help tho; get high velocity water right onto baseplate at that point.

thats why i wanted the thermaltake version of the base as it doesnt have the gap. It's not for the socket clip it's just a gap you would think akasa would know to put fins directly over the cpu die !

I might try cutting small fins into the gap.

leejsmith · 04-02-2003, 09:41 AM

what is the best way to measure the cpu temps.
i have 2 asus mobo's and i dont trust the bios temps from either of them. with the same cpu theres a 12C differance in the bios temps.

I was thinking of using a temp probe on the backside or the side of the heat spreader.

Blackeagle · 04-02-2003, 08:26 PM

Here is a thought.

You can do your block without so many layers by using a 1/2" Lexan top. Lexan is extremely strong & in this thickness you could drill the center inlet hole approx. 3/10" then use just a dremel to cut a slit (a small sliting blade would of course be best.) up from the bottom side connecting to the drilled hole. The drilled part could be threaded if you wish. Better would be to just epoxy in a short Cu Or SS tube, much thinner walled.

Then do the outlets by drilling them and threading or epoxying in tubes.

Would look a bit cleaner, and save one layer you then need to seal.

I do like this type of block. Not to hard to make and very effective.

Good luck.

BE

Blackeagle · 04-02-2003, 08:39 PM

DUH !

Always check for additional pages before posting.

Still think 1/2" lexan would be enough to do it in one layer. I have some & will help you out with a bit of it if you like. PM Mailing addy & your size needs and I can cut it to near your size needs while leaving you some to work with.

Price is high though, finished pics & performance report here.

BE

edit: I have no idea how long it will take to cross the lake. I would think it would be there in time for the Tt cooler if you were to reconsider using it.

MadDogMe · 04-03-2003, 03:28 AM

That's a shame about the Thermaltake P4 HSF

, t/o/c/store has them advertised still?. I'll see if there's anywhere else that has them in the UK...

leejsmith · 04-03-2003, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe
That's a shame about the Thermaltake P4 HSF , t/o/c/store has them advertised still?. I'll see if there's anywhere else that has them in the UK...

i asked thermaltake for a supplier from the web site.

I do have another of the ak360 bases so i will do some work on that.

i was thinking about cuting fins into the base of the copper where the gap is.

BE. for the lexan top a peice 3.5 inch x 2.5inch will give me anough room and a bit left over. I just had some ram shipped over and it only cost $9 and was here in less than a week.

aprox how much would it cost ?

03-14-2003, 06:49 AM	#27
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	here is some thing i quickley put together today. take the thermaltake copper skived base and remove the fins until they cover the top of the p4. lower the fins down to 5mm make a base plate to the height of the fins. make a middle plate with a jet design to spray the incomming water over the full width of the fins. made this clear for the example so you can see the shape. this would be round on one side and oval on the other. put a top on it. Last edited by leejsmith; 03-14-2003 at 12:32 PM.

03-14-2003, 08:38 AM	#28
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	What a shame: I can't see the pic. Otherwise, it looks good! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-14-2003, 12:22 PM	#31
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I can see! You might consider adding: 1-flow seperators, to direct the water into the channels, instead of letting hit the top of the fins (completely optional, your fins are already pretty thin). 2-Make the nozzle in such a way that the outlet extends straight up a bit: it'll help keep the flow straight. This is headed in the right direction. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-14-2003, 02:09 PM	#34
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You're in business! Nice going! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-14-2003, 02:50 PM	#36
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Right. In Cathar's design, the fins are 1mm thick, but they are cut square at the top, in such a way that it forces the water to spread out, as in comes in through the inlet. In my block, it's a thermal nightmare. In your block, like I said, your fins are already pretty thin, so this is probably a non-issue. If you really want to do something about it, you could sand those fins to a sharp edge. Nice going. Can't wait to see results! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-14-2003, 04:55 AM	#26
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	i saw the pic on the thermaltake website. mine should be with me monday. i will do a design on my 3d program when i get chance. finding the copper is a bit of a problem at the moment but i will keep looking. do you know where i can get some ? i was thinking of using a 10mm piece of acrylic with a round hole on one side cut through to a thinnner longer shape on the other side. again i will do some designs later. thanks for the info lee

03-14-2003, 08:40 AM	#29
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	i couldnt get to my usualy image hosting site from work. i will move it when i get home.

03-14-2003, 12:07 PM	#30
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	It's what I'd do in your shoes . My 'ideal' version would be a radial pin block made from a cross cut TT 1U P4 HSF, it would be very low profile... I would try to work out the area of waterspace between the fins (seen 'end on') to make it slightly less than diametre of the tube feeding the block, so I can work out how high to make the fins without making a pressure drop in the block... BB2K can probably help you out on the 'jet'/orrofice dimensions, what the ideal depth would be (thickness of 'jet' plate). There's an 'ideal' max lenght I believe?, where going past it is'nt benificial?... PS, you could make everything but the T/T base plate out of Lexan if you wanted...

03-14-2003, 01:35 PM	#33
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	so what about this i clamped this into the base of my wb you can see the water would spray across the width of all the fins and without it

03-14-2003, 02:53 PM	#37
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I want to cut thin lines across the fins so there are loads of little 'pins' sticking up, then I want to have it so water enters from the centre and flows outwards in all directions (see BB2K's 'RADIUS' thread)... **************************************** That top is the right idea, it just wants to be more 'gradual/linear' (can't think of the right word!), so the circle opening flows into the 'slot shape'. Imagine getting a copper tube and squashing the bottom into a slot then stretching it to the right width so there's a smooth transition all along the change of shape ... Just open it out/smooth it with a needle file and you'll be good to go!...

03-14-2003, 03:00 PM	#38
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	thanks for that. If only i could get some 20mm acrylic or lexan so i dont have to bond layers together, there is a shoe shop in the city that has some that would be perfect but i guess they wont like me taking thinks from there displays just have to wait for the new base so i can make a start. thanks for your help bigben and maddog. lets hope i can make a good job of it. that was a quick test to see if it would work maddog. Lee

03-15-2003, 01:55 PM	#39
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	so i had some free time today and couldnt wait for the new base to be deliverd so i put together a new version of the old block.It's a bit rough and i made some mistakes in a couple of places but i know now what problems i have before i make it for the new base. (lots of pics btw sorry if it's slow) close up of each layer the is the base i made the left right sides angled so the water does not just hit the side of the walls and it should help direct the water out of the block. middle layer has the jet in the center to spray the width of the fin area. I used a counter sink in one side and a dremel with a cutting bit on the other. and the top. I cut the middle barb down a little as they are a fraction over 10mm to allow for the jet design. here you can see the bottom 2 layers and the position of the jet over the gap of the fins. i dont have any of the acrylic glue so i cant stick it together yet it leaks like a trooper but the jet looks great. Lee Last edited by leejsmith; 03-15-2003 at 02:20 PM.

04-02-2003, 07:11 AM	#40
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	had some bad news today. The thermaltake p4 skived cooler i wanted to make the new base still has not arrived and the theoverclockingstore tell me they expect delays of at least 2-3 weeks. So i changed the order the the akasa ak360 again.

04-02-2003, 09:00 AM	#41
msv Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 336	Pouring some gasoline to the fire: In this WaterWetter performance increasing discussion (I use WaterWwtter, but on the other hand my water cooling experience is less than two weeks), has anyone meassured any temps with and without water additives? What do the field tests show? Theoreticals are good at pointing out directions, but what do real life experiences say in this topic? regards Mikael S.

04-02-2003, 09:21 AM	#42
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	I think Bill's work makes it pretty clear that JUST the TIM joint C/W is near to 0.1C/W, so temps 3-4C above water don't make much sense. Regarding Asus probe measurements, you can find my comments on how seldom they equate with reality all over the web. It's a very nice looking block tho. The gap in the center (for socket clip) is sadly in the worst possible spot from a design perspective. Maybe the nozzle will somewhat help tho; get high velocity water right onto baseplate at that point.

04-02-2003, 09:27 AM	#44
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	OH almost forgot. Here is a fairly good discussion on water wetter: http://www.bunkermentality.net/wetter.html More controlled than most "tests" I have seen on topic on intareweb.

04-02-2003, 09:41 AM	#46
leejsmith Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: notts uk Posts: 408	what is the best way to measure the cpu temps. i have 2 asus mobo's and i dont trust the bios temps from either of them. with the same cpu theres a 12C differance in the bios temps. I was thinking of using a temp probe on the backside or the side of the heat spreader.

04-02-2003, 08:26 PM	#47
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Here is a thought. You can do your block without so many layers by using a 1/2" Lexan top. Lexan is extremely strong & in this thickness you could drill the center inlet hole approx. 3/10" then use just a dremel to cut a slit (a small sliting blade would of course be best.) up from the bottom side connecting to the drilled hole. The drilled part could be threaded if you wish. Better would be to just epoxy in a short Cu Or SS tube, much thinner walled. Then do the outlets by drilling them and threading or epoxying in tubes. Would look a bit cleaner, and save one layer you then need to seal. I do like this type of block. Not to hard to make and very effective. Good luck. BE

04-02-2003, 08:39 PM	#48
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	DUH ! Always check for additional pages before posting. Still think 1/2" lexan would be enough to do it in one layer. I have some & will help you out with a bit of it if you like. PM Mailing addy & your size needs and I can cut it to near your size needs while leaving you some to work with. Price is high though, finished pics & performance report here. BE edit: I have no idea how long it will take to cross the lake. I would think it would be there in time for the Tt cooler if you were to reconsider using it. Last edited by Blackeagle; 04-02-2003 at 08:44 PM.

04-03-2003, 03:28 AM	#49
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	That's a shame about the Thermaltake P4 HSF , t/o/c/store has them advertised still?. I'll see if there's anywhere else that has them in the UK...

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