Hey, ProCooling Wants your Input!

[Blackeagle]

While hardware reveiws done by members and the staff on items often bought out of pocket might be fewer, they would be worthy of trust.

I have to disagree with pH on reading a couple big sites and reading between the lines always being enough. I know I sometimes still find myself with unanswered questions. And I'd really rather read one article who's author (and his editors) I have faith in, than shopping around for who seems to be telling the least "distortions" today (those articles suxs).

And with reveiw by yourself Joe along with pH and others you can insure a good content and accuracy. Perfect? No, perhaps not, but better I'm sure than the vast majority of reveiw sites.

[UNDERBYTE]

Just when things are getting interesting on the cooling front. This is just a lull in the action

http://www.mini-itx.com/]Millennium Falcon PC[/url]

SFF I think is where it is headed.

why not use the aquired base of knowledge to jump to the next level.

How about a mini water cooling system? competition? I took apart one of those enhiem pumps recently man oh man cheap stuff. build your own pumps using quality parts. they make 90% eff. pancake dc motors instead of the 30% eff. they are using now. the impeller was poorly done I am sure that could be improved off the shelf.

Build your own heat pipes

Use a TEC to cool the top of the waterblock rather than the cpu(i do not know if it would work)

combine technologies- waterblock to TEC to Heat pipe to radiator. whatever

Cool 100w in a case 1 inch high

Master airflow application- instead of putting 10 screaming fans on a case figure out how to do it with one.

Build your own radiators etc. A Case mod plus cooling Site?

Big opportunities in vid cards- never seen a more poorly excuted cooling solutions.

I think with cooling you have to take a more holistic approach rather than just water blocks or HSf. Total system soup to nuts
in a harsh enviro.

you can add test capability easily, Build a airflow measurment chamber for a few hundred dollars

Get a decent sound meter off of ebay

I think to improve the site you need to refine it. as noted earlier get your readers involved and expand the focus a bit but keep the basic premise intact.

best o'luck

[KnightElite]

I really like UNDERBYTE's ideas about total cooling solution articles. That would be very interesting I think.

Another thing worth considering, especially if pH gets his test setup up and running eventually, is keeping a database of waterblock performance, similar to what overclockers does with their heatsink database. They have a few waterblocks there, but the quality of those reviews is not nearly the same, since they are generally of watercooling "kits." I think having a permanent waterblock performance rating, always done on the same system, with controlled variables, would be something that would be very valuable to many people, and would probably attract more traffic to the site.

[Yo-DUH_87]

Grr, some stupid add redirect ate my post, and I had some good stuff there (and this has ruined any chance of me ever wanting to select a life companion from that website )... This version is shorter and easier on the eyes, though (and you think this one is long, heh, you should have seen the last one)

Regarding a hardware site as mentioned in my last post, you should only do it if you plan on really putting some back-breaking work into it, as it takes a lot of work to run even a mediocre review site

Electronics projects would be good covering different approaches to different problems, as suggested earlier in the thread. One I'd like to see is one written by different authors on fan control, each author doing their own circuits, and then a editorial at the end on who likes what the best and the advantages/disadvantages of the different approaches by all the contributing authors and a uninvolved editor.

I agree in part with Joe, overclocking is becoming main-stream. My first overclock was a p2, and a complete accident! Mobos now have it so that in order to get a "small" 400 extra MHz, all you do is tap the + key a few extra times. While that is convenient that I don't have to break out the needle-nose pliers and start "jumper hunting," it has attracted an entirely "different crowd."

Add in the speed wars, Intel vs AMD, nVidia vs ATI, etc...

You now can go the store and buy a computer that can do everything the "average joe power user" wants to do, faster than he can click the mouse button, right out of the box. Why bother risking your expensive processor and warranties with OCing?

And there are all those rich [H]ard n00bs out there that think they know everything about computers, so they go buy the best computer (and, yes pH, that includes a $500 graphics card), rice it to their hearts extent (or pay to have it riced for them), and start showing it off and bragging of their so-called "l33tness." I think they have been real detrimental to the community, and their numbers have swelled dramatically over the last year or so.

I personally am an air-cooled boy, not because I don't want to overclock, but for lack of money. I am even using the retail heatsink on my processor at the moment (horror!). Yes, it is overclocked, but not a whole lot, as I'm limited by the heat condition of my case (currently running a Pentium 4 2.4b @ 2.7, any higher and the entire thing gets too hot and starts becoming unstable).

Thing is, I need to spend the money I have "to burn" on things that can improve the function of my computer. Like recently I replaced my 2 "fuzziod s00per d00per eye killer (tm)" generic CRT monitors with eye pleasing LCDs, instead of something like water-cooling or such. I would love to have h20 coursing through my computer, but it is unpractical for me I actually was hoping to get something through Pro/Geeks! to start me on my way.

Another thing I would like to see articles on is "cheap yet effective cooling." Nothing involving MacGyver style duct tape holding everything together, but stuff that doesn't involve $100 waterblocks and the such, but achieve an acceptable result.

An example of that would be "how to select a good heatercore, junkyard style," showing how to select the right heatercore for your system, get it out of it's "ex-eternal resting place", and prepare it for use in a WC system. Another example would be on "Making your own waterblock with no special tools involved," a step-by-step guide on using common tools (no drill presses or CNC here, as well as no soldering) to make an mid-range performance waterblock. Doesn't have to be pretty or ground-breaking, it just needs to work better than air-cooling.

Also, in one of your previous posts a while back, you mentioned the possibility of a DVD how-to guide, which I for one would be interested in. There are worlds of possibilities in this realm, such as windows tweaks as others have mentioned.

A simple way to do all of this, could be a revamping of the Pro/Geeks! section, such as broadening the topic criteria. I'm not suggesting you go the entire overclockers.com route, but the steady stream of content would help The prizes may also offer an additional draw , to encourage people to write a review on that new mobo/graphics card/etc. they just bought. That means you don't have to pay for the hardware, someone already has. Now send them a free shirt

Although, there should be a list of required things for a review, such as tests to run, items that can be reviewed, comparison possibilities, no shameless endorsement, etc.

Phew, I really worked hard on this one...

I may say that I like procooling just as it is, these are just ideas for expansion. (just had to insert that disclaimer )

[pHaestus]

See here for electronics column round 1:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=6678

[Zogthetroll]

well, i haven't posted a whole lot here, but i do consider myself somewhat of a regular to the site, so here's my $.02 worth. i definately want to affirm the whole electronics idea that was brought up earlier, also the mods section as well, although not your typical weak *this is how you drill a blowhole* mod, i mean good grief! I'm a pretty serious DIY'er so i like the idea of being able to make it myself as opposed to buying it. No disrespect to people who do buy their stuff, but building it yourself entails certain braggin rights. :-D i'd like to see a continuation of the sort of thing that Airspirit has been doing (eagerly awaiting phase III of that project), or total system improvement. more reader projects would be cool, ie. seeing what you guys out there are doing to improve your machines. anyway, that's all for now.

[BladeRunner]

I don't really understand where the problem is Joe, The site is fine and one of only two that has the type of discussion / topics that interest me. The other as Brad said is OC forums, but recently the more technical stuff seems to have migrated here. The water-block design & construction forum was / is a gem and you really should make more of it imo. Why not have a topic of the week detailed on the main page with pics etc, not just a link, (that wouldn't require much work).

From the feedback I get water-cooling is far from slipping away it's becoming more important for those after EFFECTIVE silent cooling, something air just can't do, and many are getting the urge to dip the toe. It doesn't matter how many people post "I have a silent system with x many SILENT fans" because I for one will never believe it!

Recently I wanted some general feedback on the CPU Splitter block I was making, where on the whole internet did I choose to post it?........... ............ the reasons should be obvious.

Don't try to diversify and dilute what you have here by going in too many other directions, when what you have is something unique. There are so many other superb topics I've linked people to, here are just a few recent ones I can think of:-

Thoughts on water pressure & flow rate

Metallurgist? Copper annealing discussion

P4 direct die water cooling

If as you say the forums are what make the site, then make more of the forums

The only thing I'd like to see is more on is the v modding details as it's an area I'm not good at. I know it's something Xtreme do but their articles are often hard to follow and missing important data.. I'd like to v mod a FX 5800 ultra as I have one effectively cooled but I don't have the info or ability on the electronics side to know the voltage points to mod or test.

To counter those about $500 video cards, I really don't see this being any different than buying a top end CPU as the cost factor is similar, and assuming you have a use for the top end 3D card you are getting more for the money imo. The 3D card usually contains a GPU that's probably as complex to produce and advanced as a CPU, not to mention state of the art expensive ram, PCB and other components..................So it's a bargain then

[g.l.amour]

amen to that,

lemme put it this way, i would have NEVER started building my own WB, if it wasn't for starters, the crazy ass articles posted here (nm if they are years old, copper is copper) and to finish it up the WB construction section. that is indeed a gem

[Since87]

Originally posted by BladeRunner
I don't really understand where the problem is Joe, The site is fine and one of only two that has the type of discussion / topics that interest me. The other as Brad said is OC forums but recently the more technical stuff seems to have migrated here.

I agree completely.

The technical level of the postings here, is far higher than at any other forum I know of.

I do still think you need to have a watercooled babe of the day, but otherwise I like the site pretty well as is.

[mashie]

I like the idea of specialised websites, don't spread yourself to thin.

When I want to read about casemodding I go to www.pheatonforums.com and when I want to read about cooling I go here.
There are far too many sites that try to be little of everything and fall flat on their faces...

How about trying to get a WB / watercooling kit reviewed once a month or mayby even more often, sure it is nice with these huge WB roundups with a lot of blocks at once but the rate of one every second year or so is not the best to keep the traffic flowing. Spread them out over the year and you will have a nice flow of content with no extra effort.

[Joe]

Hey guys thanks for all the input!! The day I posted this, I went to the dentist to get some fillings, well they ended up yanking a tooth because they drilled into the nerve... fun all around... So I have been sorta silent in here since then Besides for the Matrix coming out and me spending my off days checking that out also.

Anyway, yeh I do appreciate the input and fully agree with not trying to make the site something its not or spreading the topics too thin. I am happy to see the majority of people are happy with the site.

I am pondering some stuff still, but really what I am looking at now is a bit more emphasis on the forums part of the site, and just keeping everything else as is for now.

[Precarious]

I think you should start focusing on pc noise, don't we all hate it? How can jou make your pc as quite as possible? How cheap can you do that? Do you have to use watercooling or aircooling?

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Precarious
I think you should start focusing on pc noise, don't we all hate it? How can jou make your pc as quite as possible? How cheap can you do that? Do you have to use watercooling or aircooling?

Thats not bad actually. What about seperate forums for Performance water cooling and quiet water cooling and the same for air cooling. Maybe to many forums, but being this is primarily a cooling site maybe it would be good here...

[hara]

Suggestion: Make articles out of forum threads. That way, visitors could get the information without spending hours browsing on the forums.

[pHaestus]

Trying to convert some of my forum threads into an article as we speak (was working on that before your comment though Hara)

[hara]

That's good

An Idea that popped into my mind just now is a "waterblock competition" in which various designs are pitted against each other and judged montly by a select team of judges. If you want I could elaborate.

[mad mikee]

Just seeing what has been going on here is what has inspired me to make the system I've been making and share my ups and downs as I progress as well as helped me decide what parts to use and how to integrate them.
I like the site pretty much the way it is. The best part of this place is the interaction of the people here to develop and refine a concept and then build it.

I think the level and depth of the topics here are the best indication of what the people like. (And the level of devotion / inspiration to what they do.)

There are very few forums that are this helpful.
nforcershq has some, the amdforums that I have been in (abit/asus) have some of the same people and they have also been very helpful. This is in part because they are focus groups for a given topic - they are not trying to do many things. (Sorta like this board).

Being the tweaker that I am, the idea of quiet mods sounded good a few replies back. They seem to mesh in with what we mainly do here anyway.

Once again thanks to Joe, Phaestus, and all those wonderful people in the forums that have gotten me to this point!!!

[Tweekster]

I don't post much, but I visit often just because the level of intelligence is much higher than other sites. Also, a much stronger DIY, anything is possible attitude.

I compare 'ProCooling' to other sites as 'Scientific American' compares to 'Popular Science', just a better, much higher level of information (Joe's WB review comes to mind). Forum topics usually go much deeper into theory and fine details.

I followed projects like DH3, the Rock, etc. Thanks to you guys I'm building my third watercooled rig, a couple of Swiftech 5000 WB's on a pair of 2.4G Xeons. For my office workstation, no less. I just want quiet!

ProCooling needs to build on it's strengths.

With all that said, here's my input:

1. More electronics and in depth circuit discussion.

2. Look at aircooling in a much deeper way. As brought up in several posts, a quiet aircooling system could be designed with less fans and proper ducting. Something has always bothered me about putting fans low on the front and high on the back to make a huge current through the case, but the heatsink fan has to make the air turn 90 degrees, hit the heatsink, spread out, then exhaust out the back. Can you imagine all the bad eddy currents an regions of dead flow? Think of a car with a radiator mounted horizontal below an opening in the hood, how could you get good flow? This might cause completely different thinking in heatsink design. Crossflow maybe?

3. Look into quiet, efficient water cooling systems. I get questions everyday on how to build a really quiet machine. Small, compact systems that really work. And last the life of the computer (3 yrs?) with little or no maintainence. Maybe not quite here yet, but with a little development it could be possible. Absolute maximum cooling is not always required.

That's my 2 cents!

[Joe]

Thanks Tweek,

I am personally big on effective and quiet air cooling right now. I am in the process of saving up to build my Dual 2.8Ghz Xeon rig (w/ 3GB of ram, and a nice array of 15k 36GB U160/320 HD's). I know those things will crank heat, so I am looking at ways of cooling them without water (because the machine runs 24/7 I dont want the maint. headaches of a H2O system), and because I think I can do it with air if its designed well enough.

Also the Xeons will tollerate some higher temps and remain stable, I dont plan on OC'n them at all (wiht 4 theoretical 2.8Ghz CPU's who needs to OC? )

So when I get that project started you will prolly see some articles happen covering my experiementation with air cooling designs.

[jaydee]

How about a forum for "Open Source" designs for water blocks, electronic circuits, ect.... These Open Source designs could be used however the user wants or a License can be provided for how the creator expects it to be used. That would give newbie makers a place to start and then maybe expand on those designs. I know I have a few CAD files that I will probably never use again and wouldn't care if someone else used them and would also take advantage of electronic circuits from others.

[pHaestus]

Would there be interest in a project like this:

1) CAD drawings along with an explanation of the theory behind the design were solicited from you guys
2) a mfgr rapid prototypes the best designs
3) I tested the prototypes

I was recently approached about this by a mfgr, and I can see this going both ways. On the one hand, people are basically giving up the design of their block to a company who will profit from it. This is bad. On the other hand, I would bet we could add something like

4) Change parameters like copper/water ratio, channel/fin/pin thickness and density, baseplate thickness, etc to completely optimize the design

and then everyone would learn a whole lot from the process. I can see this kind of setup working well as long as there is some mechanism in place for people to receive some renumeration for their designs if used at a later date.

Ok back to slacking now...

[bigben2k]

There would have to be limits, no? What if the design is poor, or weird/unpredictable, or a copy of an existing commercial block?

Could we license the design, and draw a dollar from the sale of each?

What if the design requires an extensive amount of machining, like Radius?

[pHaestus]

I would assume that traits such as:

obvious copy of existing designs
very expensive to machine
obviously not a good performer

would take a design out of the running. The originality is a pretty tough one to call though. Most of the designs are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, and one designer is feeding off another.

No idea at all about licensing. I am mildly interested in this idea, but want to make sure that the readers don't get screwed over or taken advantage of. I can see this getting messy fast.

[bigben2k]

Ok, then let's take a look at it from the other end:
How many blocks total, does this manufacturer sell each month?

If the design is good, and it ends up selling in high numbers, I think that the nominal licensing fee would reward the designer, but without having any idea of the potential numbers, it's quite a mystery!

[Blackeagle]

I really like best the ideas offered on hardware & quiet or at least low noise systems.

Near the end of the first page was a post regarding the hardware aspects & how to perhaps revive interest in the Pro-Geeks by expanding it in this direction. And the low noise or quiet cooling solutions area could also be a part of that.

I don't think electronics alone is enough if you wish to see the site grow to any really notable degree.