Opinion: Water Block Testing Alliance.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by bigben2k


I was thinking about breaking up North America into districts: I've got Texas (Southwest), you've got Canada, JayDee's got the East coast, RoboTech's got the North. (Darn, we need one of those West Coast person! LOL!). Territories are non-commital, it's just a guide.

Could have sworn WA was on the West coast? Have I been lied to all these years? :shrug:

[bigben2k]

I'm still recruiting.

We'll have to work out all the administrative "stuff", but eventually, all these things will have to come to a vote.

Right now, I need the e-mail addresses of everyone, so I can open up the communication lines here.

I'm thinking about starting a forum with this, but I don't know yet. We'll definitely need some kind of webspace, to share our test procedures, and results. It might have to remain private, so it'd require a login. There's a crap load of administrative stuff to do. That's what I'll be doing, so yeah, I'm appointing myself as secretary/treasurer.


You want in? Your contribution would be great, even if you never build a testbench.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by bigben2k
I'm still recruiting.

We'll have to work out all the administrative "stuff", but eventually, all these things will have to come to a vote.

Right now, I need the e-mail addresses of everyone, so I can open up the communication lines here.

I'm thinking about starting a forum with this, but I don't know yet. We'll definitely need some kind of webspace, to share our test procedures, and results. It might have to remain private, so it'd require a login. There's a crap load of administrative stuff to do. That's what I'll be doing, so yeah, I'm appointing myself as secretary/treasurer.

Setting up a forum and webspace is no problem Ben. i can easily cover you on that if you want. Will try to get to your e-mail sometime today. I have to get to work.

[bigben2k]

Sounds good JD.

I'll e-mail you about the heaters, if you're not going to build a testbench.

[nicozeg]

I have plans to make a cpu simulator to be able to make reviews for the local overclocking scene. Here most people is in stone age about cooling, it's very common to see people posting that his volcano crap keeps his cpu under ambient. This project is something I'm going to start to build in a couple months more, as currently I don't have the time available.

But there are several variables that makes correlating results difficult. For example there's the die size and shape. Some blocks optimized for specific die sizes can perform different over the same area die, depending if it's square or an elongated rectangle.

[winewood]

__________________________
Response to BillA:

No one expected you to be mature about critisim Bill. If anything you are predictable.

Just because something can be calculated to the 1000ths doesn't mean the 10ths can't be an adequate delimiter to separate performance. Frankly I see genious in finding ways to keep is simple, thats the hard part, not taking everything to exteeme and loosing understanding of when numbers become to finite to be relevant.
___________________________

Funding for a testbed would be very benifical. Perhaps if we can find someone who can make an accurate die simulator, they could assist in the construction and donate or give specs on one that is appropriate.

Perhaps we could publicly list the components of a good system that could be built ~$1000 then argue those. Once we find a consensus, start on contributions moving toward those components. What person would control testing for this and make the unit avaliable to others? I fee should be charged per block just for maintenance and improvement imo.

Edit: srry for the late post, my kid was jumping on me as I started typing. You guys are a challenge to keep up with!

[BillA]

Ben
why are you working to set up a 'secret' forum ?
all 'standards' are created publicly
what you got to hide ?

so one of your first actions as a mod is to divert some of the posters to a different forum ?
and also to remove a technical discussion quite related to cooling ?

JoeK must be real happy with having anointed you a mod for his forums

[bigben2k]

Those are the kind of details that we'll have to iron out.

Personally, I don't really want to get into fees, but we'll have to vote on that, if there's a need.

Funding is probably going to be out. It's really going to be up to each of us to to buy and build our test rigs. There's a benefit in the variations, so I don't think we'll push for a standard, other than an acceptable error margin, and that's still an iffy. The Alliance is about setting testing parameters, not dictating how a testbench should be built. The test bench should meet some kind of testing requirement, that's it.

There's definitely going to be a lot of block swapping, among members. It'll be part of our calibration procedures.

The thing is, the first thing to do is to set some testing requirements, that are reasonable. Then we have to validate the test benches, the procedure (including the self calibration), and the stated error margins.

Then we can start cross-calibrating, preliminary, to validate the stated test procedures, tweak our test benches, and redo the whole exercise, over and over.

Then we can cross-calibrate each other, so that we can each take our actual results, and adjust them for what the alliance finds is a "truer" value.

It could take years just to get everyone up to that point!

[Since87]

I really can't see the point of a proliferation of mediocre test benches.

I'd much rather see the development of one outstanding one.

From my POV, it looks like the best hope of developing one outstanding one, is for people to contribute to pHaestus' efforts.

He already has a start. He has access to the resources of a university. He has the scientific analysis background needed to qualify his own test bench as accurate.

I don't see any benefit to dividing the 'available resources' between a lot of different test benches.

As for me contributing; I'm happy to contribute what I can to the development of a quality testbench as long as I am having fun. As soon as it starts looking like a big chore, I'll drop it. I'm not interested in a secret society of testers either.

And, WouldWhine STFU. You are contributing nothing but an angry buzzing noise. Your reaction to Bill, is nothing more than your reaction. The fact that Bill has a tendency to stir up hornet's nests, does not make a hornet's nest something other than a hornet's nest. Think about it.

[jaydee]

I don't think Ben is talking about a "Secrete Society of Testers" but more of a place testers can go to keep all the other dribble out of the conversation. I much more strictly modderated forum where anyone can see whats going on but only the "approved" members can make a thread. And I can add a section where anyone a member or not can add their thoughts aswell.

[gone_fishin]

Years? And I agree that if you want to try to set some as yet unknown "standard" that doing it in private will make it all the harder for the public to understand or accept. What are the credentials here to warrant secrecy and a credible standard, only a few well known handles in the current public cooling forums. No manufacturers, thermodynamic engineers, or college dropouts for that matter will apply your standards going this route. I think the real standard that your results will be measured against are the public test results (and publicly discussed procedures) that BillA provided through his long hard journey. But then if the procedures are not made public, how can they be scrutinized - is that the goal here BB?

[BillA]

Originally posted by jaydee116
I don't think Ben is talking about a "Secrete Society of Testers" but more of a place testers can go to keep all the other dribble out of the conversation. I much more strictly modderated forum where anyone can see whats going on but only the "approved" members can make a thread. And I can add a section where anyone a member or not can add their thoughts aswell.

and what is wrong with this forum ?

[jaydee]

Originally posted by unregistered
and what is wrong with this forum ?

:shrug: It's open to anyone to make a reply. You seen what has already happened just in this thread.

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by jaydee116
:shrug: It's open to anyone to make a reply. You seen what has already happened just in this thread.

Just because everyone is not walking hand in hand does not mean a thread (or a forum) is problematic.

Or maybe I'm just one of them assclowns

[jaydee]

Originally posted by gone_fishin
Just because everyone is not walking hand in hand does not mean a thread (or a forum) is problematic.

Or maybe I'm just one of them assclowns

Nothing is getting resloved here. Maybe that will shead some light to the subject.

[bigben2k]

I think that it's in every tester's interest to show their testing procedures, but it may not be in everyone's interest to know how he got to it. Some members may feel that the development of the procedure should remain private to members.

I don't know. It just makes sense to me. It's something we'll have to vote on.


Since87: I see your point, but I don't think that anyone is going to voluntarily contribute thousands of dollars for a super duper testing facility. I'm just being realistic here. If we all agree that our testbenches should have a margin of error of +/- 5%, which may be feasible, then we can get the rest of the accuracy from cross-testing, IMO.

Either way, you're welcome, even if it's for a short stint.

Bill: I think that JD made the point. I really don't want to get a bunch of people that are going to drop in randomly and posting irrelevant stuff. Maybe it's just for convenience, I don't know. Then there's the privacy aspect I mentionned. It'd be nice if we could have a private board right here on ProCooling, just like OverClockers has.

First I want to hear from the members, so I'm going to start gathering e-mail addys. Then we'll figure out what we want to do.

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by Since87
I really can't see the point of a proliferation of mediocre test benches.

I'd much rather see the development of one outstanding one.

From my POV, it looks like the best hope of developing one outstanding one, is for people to contribute to pHaestus' efforts.

He already has a start. He has access to the resources of a university. He has the scientific analysis background needed to qualify his own test bench as accurate.

I don't see any benefit to dividing the 'available resources' between a lot of different test benches.

As for me contributing; I'm happy to contribute what I can to the development of a quality testbench as long as I am having fun. As soon as it starts looking like a big chore, I'll drop it. I'm not interested in a secret society of testers either.

...

Seconded. I was going to suggest something like this before I found this thread. Great minds and all that....


Bob

[Joe]

Originally posted by unregistered
how about each specializing in a particular facet ?
lets see now . . . .
Ben in equivocation
jd in contention
pHaestus in delay
(Robotech I do not know)

jk jk - or not ?

Nice sounds like a superfriends team waiting to happen. But I do think Bill you could get in there under the

BillA - Cooling Evangelism

Def:
e·van·gel·ism n. - Militant zeal for a cause.

[Joe]

Originally posted by unregistered
Ben
why are you working to set up a 'secret' forum ?
all 'standards' are created publicly
what you got to hide ?

so one of your first actions as a mod is to divert some of the posters to a different forum ?
and also to remove a technical discussion quite related to cooling ?

JoeK must be real happy with having anointed you a mod for his forums

Now that I read to this point in the thread I have to ask the same question.

To Ben and JD: as you have seen every time I have been asked to make a specific cooling forum ( the simulator forum for example.. oh and the whole WB design and construction forum) I have done it for no issue.

There can be security set on forums to limit postings, etc... If you want to do your thing in obscurity I do believe that you are asking for this lil project to fail. Doing it in a public spotlight will force a legitimacy on it that the "secret" forum will lack.

Do whatcha want but I do think you are shooting yourself in the foot.

[Joe]

Originally posted by jaydee116
:shrug: It's open to anyone to make a reply. You seen what has already happened just in this thread.

Umm this is a pretty constructive thread... who are you doing this for? people who buy blocks, people who build blocks, or just you and Ben?

Nothing is getting resloved here. Maybe that will shead some light to the subject.

I dunno, what did you want to resolve? is there an issue to resolve? what was the original problem? From what I read this is a thread to DISCUSS a cooling testing alliance... Guess all this discussion is getting in the way of discussion.

Gone_Fishing hit it right on the head.

[bigben2k]

Thaks for the offer Joe. I'll PM you with the details, when I have them.

All members will have to vote on wether we want to keep this secret or not. Like I wrote earlier, it's in every tester's interest in making the testing procedure public, but not necessarily how it got there.

Personally, I don't have a problem with making the forum publicly "view-able", as long as only the WTA members can post in it. That's just my opinion... it'll be voted on.

So is this in the realms of the feasible, Joe?


To all: I'm still gathering e-mail addresses. If I don't have yours already, e-mail it to me!

[BillA]

Originally posted by Joe
. . . .
But I do think Bill you could get in there under the

BillA - Cooling Evangelism
. . . . [/b]

a fitting label Joe, and one to which I do not object at all
but I did not apply to join the club
though I have now been invited !!!

my response:
do it ALL in public fellas, its called 'peer review'
real-time, anyone can post

did any of you follow the simulator discussions ? ('till we lost gmat)
few teeners butted in, and a lot of good work was done by a number of contributors
and it was QUICKLY apparent who knew what they were talking about, and who just needed to make a post

the real problem here is that this has been discussed MANY times
now Ben wants to forget/ignore all that has gone before - as if a novel solution can be voted in
- this is merely applied science and engn, only new to those w/o experience or education in the field

good results will come to those willing to invest the time, effort, and expense
no free lunch
keep it public

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Joe
Umm this is a pretty constructive thread... who are you doing this for? people who buy blocks, people who build blocks, or just you and Ben?

It is? We have made no progress on anything excpet that some of you think there is no way this project will work. Thats getting nothing accomplished as those are the one's needed to make something like this work. Also BTW I am just giving support ot Ben's ideas. I will build a forum and give him webspace if he wants it. I am not going to play a major role in this as I already told Ben by e-mail.

I dunno, what did you want to resolve? is there an issue to resolve? what was the original problem? From what I read this is a thread to DISCUSS a cooling testing alliance... Guess all this discussion is getting in the way of discussion.

Gone_Fishing hit it right on the head. [/b]

I wasn't just refering to just this thread but the other threads about testing here. So far nothing has got accompished on any of them. We are still at the same point as if these threads never started. The people not technically advanced want a way to do decent testing, the more technically advanced say don't bother and don't help as they think it isn't worth the effort.

We always end up in the same spot and nothing gets resolved. Would a private forum help this? I doubt it. The people that would be needed in those forums are the same one's that have all these cross issues in which keeps anything form happening.

Anyway, this is Ben's project, not mine and Ben's so don't associate me like you have there. I already told him in e-mail I am not up to making a test bench of this caliper to cross calibrate but I am up to helping him however I can with this project.

[gone_fishin]

I'd send an email but it would make me feel like a kid sending out for the top secret decoder ring from a box of crackerjacks.

[bigben2k]

Maybe it should be open, and I mean wide open, but just like the simulator forum, I'm afraid that it's not going to go anywhere, because it would lack leadership. Forums don't tend themselves well without some form of leadership, or some kind of ownership IMO.

If we leave it open, then I can moderate it, and just delete the irrelevant, newb posts that we don't want.

What seems important to me though, is that the e-mail correspondence between members needs to be regular, and have some kind of consistency. The Forums make a very poor focusing point, IMO, for an effort like this.

So with JayDee's help, we can have a dedicated webspace, that WOULD be the focusing point, and the Forums can take second place to it.

These are just some thoughts. I'd rather have all members vote on it though. Maybe it just makes sense to me?!?