Watercooled Antec Truecontrol, voltage on the blocks.

[BladeRunner]

The only other thing I can think of is along the lines of what joemac said.

In the below image the two smaller fets at the far right of the image have a mica shim, but do they have a plastic insert on the front side where the screw goes? This is how I've seen it done on other PSU's but it's not obvious from the image that there are plastic inserts in the holes. I would hope there was or the mica shim would be pretty pointless???

http://www.nskjaer.dk/antec/cwdata/antec10.html

either way get everything true isolated with your nylon bolts etc and then see...........

{rant} Oh and on another related point when are these PSU's ever going to look like they are not designed by a committee, and assembled by crack smoking cyber monkeys???. They truly are horrid inside and I'm not singling out the Antec here. (however Antec do have an annoying habit of putting lots of additional PCBs inside rather than using one )

The Enermax was a mess inside, an Antec 400 watt I had was hopeless with additional little PCB's randomly screwed all over the place, along with messy connecting wires running all over. Even an expensive 600 watt, (larger than ATX form factor sized), PC Power and cooling PSU was just as poor looking quality wise. If your next motherboard came as messily or shoddily assembled as all the PSU's I've seen most people would send it straight back. PSU design seems to be stuck in a time warp, and there really is no excuses now days...........{end of rant}

[petter]

There are nylon inlays, so they too should be insulated from the sink.

I can only agree with the last part. I have watercooled a Enermax psu too, that was alot easier than the Antec with to layers of print with parts needing cooling. But I do hope that there will be introduced some better designed psu's. I hope that somebody can see the possible market and sit down and design a psu that is straight forward to watercool. The only psu's that can be bought watercooled are normal psu's that are modified, that is a lot of work.
I do not know anything about the design of psu's, but I would like to know how hard it would be to build a quality power supply yourself, that way you could make it so it was easy to watercool it by collecting all the hot parts closely to each other.

[BladeRunner]

It would be nice to have them designed with watercooling in mind but I very much doubt this will happen unless one of "us" can produce it, they, (psu companies), would be horrified at the thought of us watercooling their products

My point is not really about it being easier to water cool but more that they really are not progressing or improving the PSU, yes the Antec has some nice features but I also want to see Design & Build quality.........not one PSU I've seen yet approaches this.

The only radically different one was a fanless unit that would have been a brilliant concept for water cooling. Unfortunately it was lacking in 12v amps, (probably due to it's makers fanless passive nature). I'm guessing this wouldn't have been such a design problem if it were water-cooled. Either way just look at how much neater the layout can be when you throw away the old design concepts and start with a fresh piece of paper.



data sheet:- http://www.rsg-electronic.de/en/datenblatt/rcp300w.pdf

[petter]

It looks very nice and clean, but yes, 10A@12V is not enough.
The mosfets are all (almost) on the edge of the print it seems. That is very smart, that way one could have a waterblock on one side of the psu instead of two in the middle of everything.

[AntiBling]

Has anyone else besides me just taken the fans out of the PSU and used it that way? Mine has been in service for years with no fans at all, and no blocks. There is a little airflow from the case and that seems to be doing the trick. I took off the part of the PSU casing that doesnt hold the PCB. The sinks are just warm to the touch, nothing major.

[AntiBling]

I work on wafer production equipment in a chip plant, and I see power supplies all the time with no fans. I've always thought that the fans on a PC PSU were to vent the case, not because the supply needed it.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by AntiBling

I work on wafer production equipment in a chip plant, and I see power supplies all the time with no fans. I've always thought that the fans on a PC PSU were to vent the case, not because the supply needed it.

i have seen many a PSU where the fan has died and the PSU keeps on running.... for a while....
but they always die eventualy... usualy with a lot of smoke....

I have discovered computers run on smoke...
when the smoke comes out... it don't run anymore

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by AntiBling

I work on wafer production equipment in a chip plant, and I see power supplies all the time with no fans. I've always thought that the fans on a PC PSU were to vent the case, not because the supply needed it.

A lot of the time that is the case, unless you're packing like 500+W into an ATX psu box you don't much need a heatsink on it.
As for messiness, that's presumably because PSUs are made as cheaply as possible. Though as I recall mine has a single PCB in it.

[fhorst]

I don't get it. (oh well, a little)
If you have a heatsink on the PSU, and it is not life (!!!) why not just use that heatsink? run a tube over it, and off you go.

I'm realy impressed by all the modifications made to WC this antec, but was/is all the hassle needed?

I tied to WC once a PSU also (also Antec, as it makes to much noise with the crappy fans)
It worked like a charm, untill I was not carefull with attaching the hoses, and created a short That was the end of my 125 euro PSU.

I now have a Nexus, who is silent, but I'm going to watercool it anyway.
I will first mesure if the thing is not life.....

[BladeRunner]

I've lived with a fanless PC for a few years now and most of the time it's in a low ambient. It's quite surprising how hot things can get in zero airflow, that wouldn't even get warm with even the slightest airflow.

In the same way you can run most CPUs at higher temps and they will work fine, it comes down to how long it lasts and stability. As said before in this thread PSU's often run for a while with a dead fan but the increased heat will more than likely lead to a premature death. It's the same with most components people have reported Graphics cards fans dying and the card still working for a long while even though they get hot. I can't speak for anyone else but I want to truely solve all the heat so a top end PC will run fanless, silent and cool without any heat issues. As such I had to get more involved with the PSU cooling solution as well as every other heat producing item..

[dogbait]

Bladerunner, you mention that the internals of a PCP&C PSU were messy.

Do you have pictures of the insides by any chance?

I believe I have an old 600W Lamda PSU lying around somewhere, if I get some time I'll take it apart and list its specs and details. It's passively cooled.
(It did cost close to the price of 2 PCP&C 600W PSUs though....!)

[BladeRunner]

The PCP&C 600 watt wasn't that messy but considering it was more than twice as expensive as the enermax, it really didn't appear to be any better in build quality.



I wasn't impressed, it also suffered from an annoying coil buzz.

I'd be interested in some pics of the Lamda PSU you have, cost is not a major factor I just like something that's better designed and put together.

I have a Lowe SPS8400 bench PSU, here that is rated 3v - 15v DC at 40 Amps continuous. True it is a larger item, but that doesn't change the fact it is a huge leap in overall build quality over any PC PSU I've come across, at a constant 22 amp load @ 14V it runs no more than warm with just a low speed 80mm fan. not overly expensive being a similar price to the Enermax, Antec, and Q-Tec, (far cheaper than the PC Power and Cooling 600 watt).

Here are a few images of it:-

[Butcher]

On the other hand it's a lot bigger and only has to produce 1 voltage.

[BladeRunner]

Originally Posted by Butcher

On the other hand it's a lot bigger and only has to produce 1 voltage.

Yeah I did mention it was larger and its one voltage, all be it variable, but was trying to say more from a build quailty perspective than anything. It's hard to tell from the picture but PCB is better quality, components fitted in a much neater way with better soldering, etc........... surely this level of basic build quaility should not be that hard to get in an ATX PC PSU's format?

[Butcher]

You'd think not, especially for what some of these PSUs cost.

[dogbait]

The PSU uses modules for 5v and 12v outputs, which can be swapped out for higher outputs.



The ratings can be seen above, with the 'Parallel' modules being two 5v lines connected using a control cable I believe, across the two.



The PSU does use a fan, I believe this is to cool the AC-DC converter, which has a heatsink on it.









Not often I've seen Nichicon, let alone in a PSU.



The inside of one of the modules; there does not seem to be any major cooling, with the entire unit incredibly compact.



The AC-DC converter I believe. The HS has a number of VR chips on it.



550W output, and the certification labels. Note the BABT approval, the PSU must have been designed for telephone switches, although I believe it came from a large hard disk array.

[fhorst]

Damm. I've just tested my PSU (Nexus PSU ) And it's LIFE (well, one of the heatsinks is)

My multi meter went wild when I connected the two heatsinks. At 750v AC (High Voltage) it gave me a "6". as I'm not that much into electronics, I don't know exactly what that means. If I put it on 200V AC, it gives me a 0.6. :shrug:
When i tried to to mesure the the amps, my whole house went dark and I had to turn on the earth fuse again...... Big bang your'e dead... If I just would have touched it.

ALWAYS be carefull!!

Anyway. I now have the option to water cool the heatsink that is not life, or not to watercool at all. If you look at the link (page 2), you can see that one of the heatsinks is connected to the housing of the PSU. Also the mica shims seem good connected. The other heatsink is standig on it's own, and there does not seem to be any protection at all.

After my nice experiance in the dark, I don't want to ground the life heatsink. Unless the electronic specialists can give me some guidelines

One of the things I've done, is mount the fan outside, so this gives loads of room to play with.

My questions are:
- Is it usefull to watercool only one heatsink?
- Is it possible to ground the other heatsink?
- Will a watercooled PSU give more stable voltages?
(as my fan is only 20dba, my reason to WC is to get it more stable then it currenly is.)
...............Min.........Max......Variation (%)
+3,3v.....3,47.......3,49..........0,58%
+5v........4,76.......4,97..........4,41%
+12v.....11,86.....12,16.........2,53%

[AntiBling]

Fhorst you said...
After my nice experiance in the dark, I don't want to ground the life heatsink. Unless the electronic specialists can give me some guidelines

What you need to do is put the cover back on your PSU! Cooling it with water wont do anything at all to make your computer better. A decent PSU already provides all the stability you need. If it doesnt, its defective or too weak for the job. The only thing you can gain with water cooling a PSU is silence. There are better and safer ways to do that. I have an A.S. degree in electronics and 12 years experience repairing monitors, PCs, and many different types of semiconductor manufacturing equipment. If that makes me a specialist I leave up to you. I'm not trying to give you hard time although I know it may sound that way.

[fhorst]

Thanks for the reply. 12 years experience should make you a lot more specialist as I am.

I've been playing with PSU's (enermax, antec, 500 and up Wattage) for quite some time, payed loads of money to find them not stable enough or with loads of noise.

The Nexus gives me what I want. Silence and stable!

What I've been told many times (after asking) by several specialists, is that at a lower temerature, the output of a PSU/mosfet will be more stable. Sure, we are talking here of a mosfet beeing 60c against 30 degrees.

I want to make my system as cool as possible, and that includes my PSU.
As I'm transfering a lot of heat already to the outside of the case, the air comming into the PSU will be colder then a normal setup.

Now you can think : If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it....
Well, that's just not me. I like to get the max out of things, and that mostly requires some form of tweaking.
My max OC at this time is 3.720 on a P4 2.8.
I want to see if I can push it further, running on pure water (no chillers, pelts, vapo)
I want to water cool all that get's hot if I can.

Watercooling system memory won't give a better OC, but it will keep my system temps a bit lower, so I watercool them

The cover of my PSU is now closed.

I did place the fan on the outside, as that makes a better fit in my case. This also gives some space to make changes for improvements (?) as the builders of the PSU are restriced with space.

If you want to make an improvement, and can't let it sit just the way it was build, what's the best improvement to make?

[AntiBling]

If you want to make an improvement, and can't let it sit just the way it was build, what's the best improvement to make?


Easy! Stickers and cathode lights! Just kidding...

Since you've obviously got the desire, why not read up a bit on the web about electronics, ( at least the fundamentals of AC and DC ) and learn how to fully use your multimeter safely? Knowledge is power, and with this particular endeavor, trial and error is NOT the best way to learn. Glad you were not offended as I didnt mean it that way, I was prepared for a flaming here but felt obligated to speak up. Good luck. Dont kill yourself.

[fhorst]

Originally Posted by AntiBling

why not read up a bit on the web about electronics, ( at least the fundamentals of AC and DC ) and learn how to fully use your multimeter safely? Knowledge is power,

No flames here mate, we are all here to learn.
I'm called a "specialist" with software, just due to that I'm MCSE , Master CNE, It Project+ etc. Well, the only thing I know is that I don't know anything

I know the difference with DC/AC, but I have no in depth knowledge of mosfets and how/why the captiance (right word?) becomes AC. Nor do I understand why my earth fuse snapped when the "life" heatsink got in contact with it. (sure there was a to high voltage leak...... I understand thast part )

I don't have to know, I know what's most imported: ALWAYS be carefull when you play with a PSU. So I am

I have no intention to redesign the PSU, or to fully understand how it is working.

I do however now have 2.5 x 12 x 12cm extra space in the PSU, and I want to make good usage of it.

The extra space should already provide a better airflow.
Will placing some additional fins to the heatsing do some good? or is it just a waist of time?

[AntiBling]

An ammeter is in essence a short. It has the lowest resistance they could build for the price you paid so that it does not affect your current measurement by adding its own load. ( thereby decreasing the current ) Im not clear on exactly what two points you connected your meter to, but clearly they are not the same point (shorted together) electrically , and you shorted them together with your ammeter. You may want to open the meter and check the fuse for the amp measuring circuit. Chances are its a goner.

[BladeRunner]

While I certainly agree with your advice to fhorst in this instance, (and it should probably apply to anyone else that has no proper understanding of AC voltages). However on the other hand if we all took this attitude water-cooling PC's would never have happened.......

If you have water in the PC, (but no water-cooled PSU), a spray leak, leaking Res or Pump etc, has the potential to get the PSU just as wet as a leak inside a water-cooled PSU, all be it less likely & potentially less severe.....

I do believe IF a water-cooled PSU is done well then the potential risk is extremely small, (over and above the rest of the PC being water-cooled). It bothers me when mains voltage electricity is still seen by some as a dangerous monster out to get people. Water in a PSU, (assuming it's done well), is not really that different than the mixing of mains voltages and water going on in many other appliances we use and ignore around the home all the time, washing machines, dishwashers, stream irons etc etc, the list is long.. None of these are an issue when earthed, correctly fused and power supplied through an RCD.

Originally Posted by AntiBling

The only thing you can gain with water cooling a PSU is silence. There are better and safer ways to do that. .

I'd be very interested to know what they are because I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble with my PSU?

[fhorst]

LOL might be. Oh well, I'll just buy an other one for 4 euro's. Crappy, I know, but good enough for me. (as I mostly mesure the voltage on bataties and light bolts) I gues I turned it to the wrong setting

My PSU is still working, I'm still living, so no problems.

Question remains: Should I do anything with the additional space?

[AntiBling]

Id rather not hijack the thread by getting off point but I couldnt resist this one...

Bladerunner said..
I'd be very interested to know what they are because I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble with my PSU?

Im interested to know what they are too. How did that improve the performance of your computer? What did you gain? Besides the satisfaction of successfully engineering something, I mean. The only point I was making is that I dont see what is to be gained by watercooling the PSU.

As for better/safer ways, I like my way which is just to take the fans out. The airflow it gets from air flowing through the case is all the airflow it needs. Or you could buy a fanless one, or one with fans that are essentially silent, or replace your existing fan(s) with quiet types. Hey, its your PSU so do what you want, but this is one item that I will not be watercooling.

Fhorst you could put a "space reserved for future use" sticker on it. I'm glad everything turned out OK.