Waterblocks with heat pipes pins possible?

[BillA]

I encountered it with google, it was not on the Intel site - perhaps posted by an author
mid '80s or so; not really worth searching for other that to see how an Intel sponsored investigation is conducted by a University

[redleader]

Originally Posted by Boli

Intel pulled a chip (I think the dual core thingy unsure) because it was too hot and they are trying to make it stay under 100W of heat, i.e. at the best a quiet cooler can manage and still keep it within acceptable long lasting temps.

Its not the CPU I'm worried about heatwise, manufacturers know they can't raise it much higher without problems its all the other parts that have my attention.

No Intel pulled Tejas, Prescott is still well on its way to the 130-150w mark in the not too distant future. I think a good waterblock is only going to get more useful

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by unregistered

so Cathar 'invented' impingement ?
spoken like a fanboy noob

You never fail to make me laugh Old Boy he he he

in this case I onl feel honoured to be called a 'fanboy noob' - how refreshing, thank you sir

[Starman97]

The next thing is probably going to be some sort of 'in-die' cooling.
Like cutting channels in the back of a die for a heat exchanging
fliud or gas to pass thru. Perhaps a peizoelectric 'pump' to keep it moving
to a large heatspreader/radiator plate. The system would be sealed
and probably use some sort of freon-type fluid to take advantage of
the phase change thermodynamics. Sort of a heat-pipe with a active
circulation.

[Jabo]

Starman97 - you mixed everything there d00de!
Keep in mind that dies need to be small (are getting smaller as I write this) and therefore in-die cooling solutions will have to be designed to use particle physics, not fluid dynamics (how would you make it high pressure resistant, huh?)

[Starman97]

Originally Posted by Jabo

Starman97 - you mixed everything there d00de!
Keep in mind that dies need to be small (are getting smaller as I write this) and therefore in-die cooling solutions will have to be designed to use particle physics, not fluid dynamics (how would you make it high pressure resistant, huh?)

Actually...

. Die size is getting larger, but 2x2cm is a practical limit, it's hard to handle and package die's much bigger than this. Also thermal expansion effects create large stresses at the edges of the die-package interface.

. heat pipes run at low pressure, they're not like home or car AC units.

. Micro-machined Si is quite strong for it's size.

Have a look at this,, starting on page16 for the thermal stuff..
http://www.sematech.org/meetings/200...ng_Goodson.pdf

[Jabo]

Right, what I meant was that net size is bigger BUT process is getting smaller and density of elements rises leaving any possible channel dims extremely small.
For CPU to work it has to be an intgral structure so it is not possible to create micro channels between layers of circuitry. Having die microchanneled on external surfaces is counter productive and makes no sense.
Even if it was possible/feasible to make a die wirh layer of circuitry stacked on each other with micro dim spacing inbetween with some sorft of interface connecting them (uff, nice bit of SF going on here) then amount of coolant types described by you needed to pass through to achieve any cooling would
call for extremely high pressures (to maintain coolant's velocity or mass flow in time through changing diameters of a vessel pressure needs to change - some basics here for ya d00de) = kaboooom and flying silicone
Read about thermoelectrics and use of electrons themsleves for cooling and go down to nano level of architecture

Skimmed over your linky. It looks like an attempt at direct die phase change cooling using premanufactured on-die-surface-microfinns... I could not understand why did they limit themselves by putting a glass cover on top of this channels severely limiting the amount of coolant to be boiled and they use sequential flow pattern.... then check page 35 for test results - useless performance for current CPUs thermal output Nice find anyway, I hope I'll fbe able to find some time to read it all

[Starman97]

Originally Posted by Jabo

Right, what I meant was that net size is bigger BUT process is getting smaller and density of elements rises leaving any possible channel dims extremely small.

* The channels are cut into the bulk substrate, not into the region of
active junctions, which is extremely thin, 1000's of angstroms..

For CPU to work it has to be an intgral structure so it is not possible to create micro channels between layers of circuitry. Having die microchanneled on external surfaces is counter productive and makes no sense.

* nonsense, micromachining structures with active logic is commonplace
They wont go beween active elements though.

Even if it was possible/feasible to make a die wirh layer of circuitry stacked on each other with micro dim spacing inbetween with some sorft of interface connecting them (uff, nice bit of SF going on here) then amount of coolant types described by you needed to pass through to achieve any cooling would
call for extremely high pressures (to maintain coolant's velocity or mass flow in time through changing diameters of a vessel pressure needs to change - some basics here for ya d00de) = kaboooom and flying silicone

* Look here: http://www.darpa.mil/mto/heretic/pro...georgia-4.html
4.5 PSIG, that's nothing to Si. the internal stresses in the die are far greater than
that caused by pressurized channels in the bulk substrate.

*BTW, they are stacking transistors in production devices, I've even seen
stacking of dies in prototypes. They grind down the back of the die and
cut holes into it to connect circuits between the dies, then they fuse the two
dies together in an annealing process. It's expensive, and only goes into
expensive products where space is at a premium. (Mil stuff and sensors,
but it's soon to go into power controls. Put a micro ontop of big power FETs)

Read about thermoelectrics and use of electrons themsleves for cooling and go down to nano level of architecture

* that's another approach,, more advanced than micromachining to be sure.
After all, it is the diffusion of energetic electrons that moves heat in things.
The trick is to get the hot ones to move out and the cool ones to move in
while inside a solid state material.

Skimmed over your linky. It looks like an attempt at direct die phase change cooling using premanufactured on-die-surface-microfinns... I could not understand why did they limit themselves by putting a glass cover on top of this channels severely limiting the amount of coolant to be boiled and they use sequential flow pattern.... then check page 35 for test results - useless performance for current CPUs thermal output Nice find anyway, I hope I'll fbe able to find some time to read it all

The chipmakers ARE doing work on this right now, a lot of the sources I've
quoted are a few years old, the tech has been taken into the research labs
at the big semi makers, Semetech only does the initial research, they dont
productize things there. Intel, Moto, IBM,AMD are all working on this and keeping
quiet about results so the others dont patent the designs out from under them.
It is the only way to pull 200W/cm^2 from a die, you need mass flow to move
the heat faster than internal thermal diffusion.
Even if it's just to a copper cap that is the size of the external package.

I've seen the presentations on this back when I was at MOT, they havent
given up on it.
Here's an Intel paper..
http://www.mit.edu/afs/athena/org/m/...ms/paper12.pdf
It's more about using jets spraying onto the die, but tiny ones,
100uM diameter.. They are doing the research though.

[Jabo]

I thought about doing a write up here about all the articles and methods of cooling but... sadly no time
Search PRoForums and XtremeSystems.org for direct die phase change vs. evap head type and jet impingement cooling systems.

You shoud find your answer why nobody is using DD phase change systems and why Cathar stopped futher development of jet impingement type of blocks

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Jabo

...and why Cathar stopped futher development of jet impingement type of blocks

I did? Okay, if you say so.

[Jabo]

Didn't you? I thought you were going to resuract one of your dropped ideas involving centrifugal forces simulating jet imp. effect?
I meant classicla type of design like your current produce
If I am wrong I do not mind eating my hat - 100% ecological

BTW, I just spotted your new avatar, next generation of modders growing up? see Medusa linky for my one

[Cathar]

Okay, fair enough. No, the newer designs are not "classical jet impingement" then. After a lot of experimenting I believe I've take the classical approach about as far as it can go.

The new design is producing some pretty amazing results though, even though you could say that it's still "impingement", hence my comment.

Originally Posted by Jabo

BTW, I just spotted your new avatar, next generation of modders growing up? see Medusa linky for my one

Yeah, she's four. She regularly helps me to install motherboards and the like. Those little fingers are great for getting screws into and out of tight spots. The other one is almost 6 months now. I don't think I could trust her to do much other than to stick in her mouth whatever gets into her hands.

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Yeah, she's four. She regularly helps me to install motherboards and the like. Those little fingers are great for getting screws into and out of tight spots. The other one is almost 6 months now. I don't think I could trust her to do much other than to stick in her mouth whatever gets into her hands.

Tell me about it. My boy is 18mnths and his fav place to play is around my rig and inside my modding tool box LOL. The best gain from them being around is that my rig is 100% child proof now

[Incoherent]

Originally Posted by Jabo

Tell me about it. My boy is 18mnths and his fav place to play is around my rig and inside my modding tool box LOL. The best gain from them being around is that my rig is 100% child proof now

Do you also notice that the place seems to get tidier and better looking. Fan grills get put on, wires get secured, connections insulated properly...
A two year old here, has a habit of putting things in drive slots.

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by Incoherent

Do you also notice that the place seems to get tidier and better looking. Fan grills get put on, wires get secured, connections insulated properly...
A two year old here, has a habit of putting things in drive slots.

Exactomundo m8! Kids are good for modders, I am telling ya!