C-Systems 12 VDC Pump review...

[Anemone]

Dan

Have to say it's nice to have you visit. I've witnessed some of the very best question the facts/test the answers sessions in these forums and honestly think the current regular bunch of posters are some of the very best "curious minds" out there atm.

If you stick around, I will promise you the chance to do some questioning of your own on any number of occasions. And the folks here are also good enough to say one of two things and not get too upset "I see your points and don't agree" or "interesting, thanks for adding to my collection of facts".

We even have our super scientists who post to themselves "yes I know I wrote this but its not good enough for the following reasons" folks too!

I enjoyed reading this thread, as it was a good, "I tested" "But were you sure" "doesn't seem right" "It is because" "ok granted" type of thread

Thanks to all who contributed too btw!

$.02

[Anemone]

I want to add a question

The dual version of this pump would seem a nice upgrade of the MP600, yes? I think there are a few out there that often stop at the 600 when faced with going to a more super pump concept vs lesser performance. The dual version would cost a bit more, but it "looks" like it would work just a tiny bit more powerfully, giving folks a slightly stronger option before going to something really huge for a pump.

Am I correct? If its true, Bill we'll have to get some orders in with you

[Hotseat]

I think the 600 will give you around the same flow as a dual unit, hard to say which will be more, there too close to call.

The advantage in the dual unit, comes in having two seperate flow circuits.
Your not trying to push 160GPH through a GPU coolant block first.

Disadvantage is more pumping

As most of you know, thermo eff curves flatten out around 4-5 L/m on most blocks, hence I see no reason personally, to push 160 gph, however you may find different.

There seems to be mis-understanding about flow, at least what I have seen.
Once a blocks thermo curves flatten out, thats it, pushing 2X or 3x the amount of water at it will not help.

If this wasn't so, cars would have small rad's and big pumps, since rad's are more expensive, and hard to place

I can tell you how we test cars, which believe it or not, applys to computers.

We determine the thermo eff of the engine block, based on cooling flow, and once we see the curves flatten,we have the ideal flow required. Then we design the rad and placement.

Of course there are limits, if we have to make the pump or rad too big, the engine designers have to go back an fix there issues.

BTW Don't worry about the price, had no idea market was this big. Spent all last night making new extrusion dies, so we can make these pumps quickier, and likely cheaper. New case is 3-5 weeks away, will still be color anodized AL and hopefully people will find it just as attractive.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Did I miss something? Do the pumps have a bizzare PQ curve or something?

I'm also puzzled by the flow test with the Maze3 and BIX, where the results seem to contradict Robotech's PQ graph. If the X2's parallel and series PQs cross right around 100 GPH, how can we see 99 series and 108 parallel in the system test? Am I being confused by the error margins in the different tests?

[AngryAlpaca]

Hotseat: You are likely the best manufacturer representative I have ever seen in a forum. A lot of them are ignorant or defensive, and most just ignore questions/comments that are against them.

Your pump seems to combine price, size, ease of use and performance very nicely. If I didn't just screw up my motherboard and two power supplies, I would order one of those right away.

[Kbofwy]

I also think the fear of aluminum in water systems..........

I didn't mean to underestimate the importance in taking precautions when using aluminum in a water cooling system, but I think most everyone in this forum knows the particulars in that.

Anyway, I see another benefit in a dual pump setup. In the rare instance of a pump failure, the remaining pump would most likely keep enough flow going to keep the system from melting down. Also, do these pumps have the third wire for RPM/locked rotor sensing? If they don't, they might be nice to see in the next run. It would be like having a free flow sensor!

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Kbofwy

I didn't mean to underestimate the importance in taking precautions when using aluminum in a water cooling system, but I think most everyone in this forum knows the particulars in that.

Maybe in this forum, maybe not...
A member just posted this. A anodized AL top from a D-Tek Spiral. Aluminum rad used with distilled water and antifreeze (so he claims, credibility a little week being he said he used plastic barbs when the pic clearly shows a metalic reflection from brass barbs).

[nicozeg]

Originally Posted by RoboTech

Yes, aluminum is always a concern but corrosion can be easily managed with additives and errosion... well time will tell. Aluminum automotive water pumps certainly seem to be able to withstand a lot of wear and tear and they operate at much higher temperatures and flow rates than PC pumps, frequently with a lot of particulate sludge in the coolant banging away on the aluminum walls...

My dad has a jeep cherokee that recently needed his second pump change in 6 years. The 5mm. aluminium walls of the pump corroded almost completely over the impeller, and developod a serious leak.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by nicozeg

My dad has a jeep cherokee that recently needed his second pump change in 6 years. The 5mm. aluminium walls of the pump corroded almost completely over the impeller, and developod a serious leak.

Looks like a STEEL impellor? Certainly the problem if that is the case. I had a 1984 Honda accord that had 230,000 on the Original water pump when the bearing went out on it and had to replace it, that used an O-ring seal to boot. All aluminum though even the impellor.

[Cathar]

The vast majority of cars don't use copper and aluminium mixed together in the same coolant loop though. Most cars are using cast iron or steel water-paths, aluminium radiators and aluminium other bits and pieces, all of which are significantly closer to each other on the galvanic reactivity scale than copper and aluminium. Iron/steel/aluminium are close enough to only require fairly minimal amounts of protection.

Is there any chance of getting the pump bodies being made out of polycarbonate? 'twould be a very sexy thing to have a clear pump for the modding community with some LED holes in it. The pumps would sell by the thousands.

Alternately simply getting the pump bodies made out of Noryl?

[Turbokeu]

Originally Posted by unregistered

do you know of any aquarium pump with a 50,000 hr MTBF ?

I was under the impression that Eheim pumps (although not officially) had a MTBF in that range...

I used Eheim pumps in fishtanks for more than ten years continously without even changing the impeller and/or impeller bearings.

I also have a Eheim canister pump/filter from 1965 that still runs strong (although it needs a drop of oil every 1-2 months on the motor bearings )

cd

[Hotseat]

Automotive water pump corrosion is often caused by metal particles in the fluid.

Most castings are cheaply made, and of sub-standard alloys.

Also you should note, automotive pumps fail 80% of the time, do to bearings, not seals.

The strain the belts place on the pump bearing is VERY large, even more so in the last 10 years, where one belt is used on the whole motor.

Recently manufactures have been using wider belts, which reduce total stress, hence pump last much longer then to past.

If I see that pic right, is that AL against Copper?
Big no-no if so, you need a gasket between then, not just an o-ring.
O-rings should only be used on like or neutral material.
Gaskets are cheaper anyhow, we just cut ours with laser cutter, any shape we want, CAD straight to production cheap and quick.


Take a look at some modern type automotive rads, AL fins / core, plastic caps..... little corrosion

BTW Great forum !
People with real GOOD points, not "troll talk", glad Lee pointed me to it

[8-Ball]

Glad you're enjoying it here!

With respect to your suggestion about gaskets, surely, if the top and the bottom are bolted together using metal hardware, then it really doesn't matter whether you use an o-ring or a gasket, as the two halves will still be in electrical contact.

8-ball

[BillA]

no
'electrical' connection via a bolt (through a flat gasket) is completely different than when aluminum and copper, or brass, are placed in physical contact

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Is there any chance of getting the pump bodies being made out of polycarbonate? 'twould be a very sexy thing to have a clear pump for the modding community with some LED holes in it. The pumps would sell by the thousands.

Alternately simply getting the pump bodies made out of Noryl?

This is a brilliant idea, assuming polycarbonate is adequate for the task - In fact, if C-Systems doesn't decide to do it, I might try buying a pump and using it to make molds to cast an acrylic one for myself, just to be unique

[8-Ball]

Originally Posted by unregistered

no
'electrical' connection via a bolt (through a flat gasket) is completely different than when aluminum and copper, or brass, are placed in physical contact

I guess I should know that as a metallurgist.

Oh well, my bad.

Cheers for putting me right.

8-ball

[Hotseat]

We use NBR for gaskets, laser cuts them quick, and there is no galvanic issue, as there is no contact at area.

You can try to make housing all out of plastic, there is a good engineering reason why we do not.

Sorry, I'm sure you can figure out that we would have used it if possible.

If metal fittings are a issue, we could just make the housing with AL bards instead of NPF threads. Our industrial units have this, no big deal since our CNC lathe can spit out 100's a day

I'm not sure the corrosion issue is that big guys, hasn't been for us in the past, good anodizing really does work.

[j813]

Just curious, specifically what types of applications and chemicals have you tested this pump?

Originally Posted by Hotseat

You can try to make housing all out of plastic, there is a good engineering reason why we do not.

Sorry, I'm sure you can figure out that we would have used it if possible.

Even if it's Polycarbonate?
The cool idea here is it's looks, and not being paranoid with corrosion.
Well I really have no knowledge about chemicals or engineering but to cover all those issue is one good product.

Thanks

[dima y]

so let me get this right 200 are gone in 5 days or so.

now you guys are working on the next batch? I wanted to buy 2, when should I be able to get them? I have a little project that needs to be finished by July 1st, so is there a chanse I would be able to get them say by 15th of june?

I guess what I am asking is when is the next batch going to be available? Also is it possible to get custom anodization color, black red etc?

[nexxo]

And chrome polish? You gotta have chrome polish!

Anyway Dan, in my 2 year quest for good, reliable and compact 12V pumps this is an absolute stunner. Pure quality. I think I'm going to get one. Not for my current PC (it already has had a change of pump --can't keep going on like that), but perhaps I will try watercooling one of those Iwill Dual opteron SFF PCs that are coming out right now. This pump is just the ticket.

[nicozeg]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Looks like a STEEL impellor? Certainly the problem if that is the case. I had a 1984 Honda accord that had 230,000 on the Original water pump when the bearing went out on it and had to replace it, that used an O-ring seal to boot. All aluminum though even the impellor.

Pff, steel motor, alu pump, copper rad and hc. I think they made it that way just to increase demand on replacement parts.

[AngryAlpaca]

There's no such thing as a copper radiator. There are brass/copper ones and aluminum ones. Brass does not react with aluminum, nor does aluminum.

[Hotseat]

"think they made it that way just to increase demand on replacement parts"

Welcome to automotive engineering.....do you really think we don't know how to design a car that last 15-20 years?

[AngryAlpaca]

Humans can do almost anything. Can we do it cheaply, or cheap enough to make it viable? No. Most things are beyond that reach. Also, people don't want expensive 20 year old cars that work like the day they were bought. They want new cars. New, cheap cars. There is no point designing cars for the minority who will put their cars to long use.

[BillA]

no, don't want any new and cheaper plastic
doin' just fine with my 3 '82-84 MB 300SDs
Thanks