Bush or Kerry: slam the US!

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Yes, I speak plainly. I don’t attempt to use outlandish metaphors in order to make myself sound intelligent.

Good one.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Kobuchi, I don’t "feel" the world is a nasty place...I know it is nasty place...

Did you know that, once, Falluja was a peaceful city? There was no insurgency. Americans could go where they pleased without being shot at. Wandering in the markets and so forth. Some marines decided to set up base in a conveniently empty schoolhouse: they piled the desks outside as a roadblock, stationed guns at the windows. Do you remember what happened when parents and teachers brought the children there to protest, at the start of Iraq's school year?

Some would think those actions prudent. Sound "force protection" at every fateful step.

Did you know that Fallujan rebels are now believed to be mostly hiding, waiting for soldiers to enter buildings? So now the orders, according to the troops interviewed, are to fire into houses before entering. Every house still standing must be raided in this fashion. No choice, because Falluja just gets nastier by the day.

I think the whole chain of events in Falluja guided by insecurity and cowardice. I speak plainly too.

[superart]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Some farmers grow opium poppies. Then there must be processors, packagers, distributors. Then the pushers on the street. Then finally the consumers. No thanks. I trade many things with many people, but I'm not in the business of trading gore and horror with Iraqi teenagers.

WTF does growing opium have anything to do with selling DVDs of beheadings?

i can't even properly respond top that post.

All i can say is, wtf?

WTF?



However, on a somewhat unrelated note, since you bring up opium poppies, my grandma makes a realy really really good strudle out of poppy seeds. Damn good. Deeeeelllliiiiiiccccoussssss!!!!

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Good one.

Did you know that, once, Falluja was a peaceful city? There was no insurgency. Americans could go where they pleased without being shot at. Wandering in the markets and so forth. Some marines decided to set up base in a conveniently empty schoolhouse: they piled the desks outside as a roadblock, stationed guns at the windows. Do you remember what happened when parents and teachers brought the children there to protest, at the start of Iraq's school year?

Some would think those actions prudent. Sound "force protection" at every fateful step.

Did the school look like this, I'm sure it did. Saddam piled weapons at all the elementary schools. The locals wanted us to occupy this school if for no other reason to keep the children out of it...There where three kids at the local hospital who had blown off their hands playing with mortar rounds.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Did you know that Fallujan rebels are now believed to be mostly hiding, waiting for soldiers to enter buildings? So now the orders, according to the troops interviewed, are to fire into houses before entering. Every house still standing must be raided in this fashion. No choice, because Falluja just gets nastier by the day.

That’s normal clearing procedure for urban warfare. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. You don't know the square root of jack. This operation is actually going allot better than anyone expected.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I think the whole chain of events in Falluja guided by insecurity and cowardice. I speak plainly too.

The Marines (make sure you capitalize it next time...it is one of the few actual titles in United States) and the Iraqis attempting to secure the town right now are all heroes.

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by superart

WTF does growing opium have anything to do with selling DVDs of beheadings?

BillA's transactional analysis could explain it better. I see a big demand in America for evil abroad. I was trying to illustrate how packagers , distributors, and pushers are essential to the trade, and most essential of all are end consumers who use the product to feel superior or victimised or to focus aggression or even trick congress - like the heroin junkie this is id appeal, reason in tow. This assumes people naturally need these feelings and unwittingly find safe objects (e.g. foreign) to dwell them in. This is a weird perspective, I know, and only one.

On the other side we have Iraqis feeling righteous, in precisely the same way, because they're looking at an Abu Ghraib pic of a man with electric wires clipped to his figs. They can make this to mean all American soldiers are bad guys, so they themselves must be the good guys. A "pusher" would call such material a hard dose of reality, say I won't feel right for days after seeing it, but then learn to appreciate the fighters protecting me from, or avenging, such a fate. Hey, maybe it'll stir me up enough to go fight those devils.

The currency, hate, just recycles and escalates between the "sides". To an outsider this exchange looks cooperative. A joint venture.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Did the school look like this, I'm sure it did. Saddam piled weapons at all the elementary schools. The locals wanted us to occupy this school if for no other reason to keep the children out of it...There where three kids at the local hospital who had blown off their hands playing with mortar rounds.

Wow. Over half of Iraq's citizens are under 15. So then just the ratio of weapons piled up at elementary schools to Iraqi soldiers must have been enormous. And that would be just a fraction of all the Army's weapons. Why did the Iraqi army have so many more weapons than they could possibly use?

Anyway, that's great you helped keep the kids from playing with weapons.

Did you get to destroy any?

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

That’s normal clearing procedure for urban warfare. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. You don't know the square root of jack.

Try cajoling a toddler off the road while balancing a sleeping baby in one hand and collapsing a stroller with the other. On second thought, better stay in your "real world".

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

The Marines and the Iraqis attempting to secure the town right now are all heroes.

Good job. Rescuing those people does make them heroes. Spread it all around. But how does that not make their methods essentially cowardly, just the same? A soldier putting his own safety ahead of civilians is cowardly, right?

I checked what you said about clearing buildings, and it appears the procedure in Fallujah is to pump the house full of metal, then blast an alternate entry though the wall, because there might be a fighter hiding in there. My apologies if that's just normal, common knowledge. Every house gets this treatment, and since fighters are now popping up in previously cleared neighbourhoods, I guess a lot of buildings will be cleared repeatedly.

This is for the safety of American soldiers. At some point, considering one's own safety at the expense of others becomes cowardice, whether it's one soldier betraying his platoon or one nation betraying the human race. Crossed the line there, don't you think?

Note I'm not suggesting organised cowardice is a poor way to win battles.

[superart]

umm, its not common practice for US soldiers to vaporize Iraqi "figs" with a car battery.

It is common practice for insurgents to brutally behead civilian hostages.

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by superart

umm, its not common practice for US soldiers to vaporize Iraqi "figs" with a car battery.

It is common practice for insurgents to brutally behead civilian hostages.

Neither is common practice, really. How many rebels are there in Iraq, and how many beheadings have there been? A dozen? You have far more gruesome murders committed by Americans upon each other, back home, but in the western style we're accustomed to: strangulation, rape/murder *yawn*, gun in the mouth and so on. This is an expression of American culture, and sharply characterises it to outsiders (I can speak for the Japanese perception, at least), though it's not "common practice" at all. I'm talking about perceptions.

Apparently some rebels believe American soldiers are torturers. Listen to this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In areas controlled by U.S. forces, loudspeakers mounted on Humvees urged that "all fighters in Fallujah should surrender, and we guarantee they will not be killed or insulted."

From a loudspeaker on a mosque still controlled by insurgents, the fighters replied: "We ask the American soldiers to surrender and we guarantee that we will kill and torture them."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detect cynicism in that reply? So of course we know those people won't be brutalised and their homes pillaged, if they surrender, but they're stuck fighting under the perception American soldiers mean to do evil.

And guess what? Americans are fighting too, and trashing the lives of countless civilians, for their own equally self-serving perceptions.

[Guderian]

Neither is common practice, really. How many rebels are there in Iraq, and how many beheadings have there been? A dozen? You have far more gruesome murders committed by Americans upon each other, back home, but in the western style we're accustomed to: strangulation, rape/murder *yawn*, gun in the mouth and so on. This is an expression of American culture, and sharply characterises it to outsiders (I can speak for the Japanese perception, at least), though it's not "common practice" at all. I'm talking about perceptions.

So are you implying that these events are part of normal everyday society? Or just normal American society? I think you need to do a little study of your own history before you start off on others.

And I think you should stop speaking for your countrymen, you can only speak of YOUR perception.

And perception can only be as accurate as the information that creates it. If you limit yourself to one-sided media, you will have a one-sided perception.

Apparently some rebels believe American soldiers are torturers. Listen to this

Consider the source: Did these rebels get tortured, or perhaps see torture occuring? Maybe they heard it from a reliable source, like uncle akbar's sons' wifes' best friend's brothers' mistresses' fathers' former roomate who swears by allah that every word she said is true.

Do you have any idea how biased any information out of Iraq is, on both sides. you must take info from both sides, run it through a bullshit detector, and then start discussing.

Kobuchi, You can disagree with how things are done, but you can't begin to comment on why things are done. Get your head out of your ass, check your sources for bias as stringently as you check us for it, and take a moment to step back and see the overall scheme. You may still disagree, but perhaps you can eliminate the 'pop media' ramblings shit.

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by Guderian

So are you implying that these events are part of normal everyday society?

No. I'm saying we all like to judge a group by its most spectacular acts, even if by the rare extremist. The Iraqi resistence (broadly speaking that's the bulk of the population) cuts off heads as "common practice", for example. I'm saying there is a great hunger in America to find evil abroad. This is a problem.

Originally Posted by Guderian

I think you need to do a little study of (WWII Japanese war crimes) before you start off on others.

We could be agreeing, but you're determined the foreigner must be at odds.

The rest of the argument I roughly agree with, and includes points I've made already:

Originally Posted by Guderian

And I think you should stop speaking for your countrymen, you can only speak of YOUR perception.

And perception can only be as accurate as the information that creates it. If you limit yourself to one-sided media, you will have a one-sided perception.

Consider the source: Did these rebels get tortured, or perhaps see torture occuring? Maybe they heard it from a reliable source, like uncle akbar's sons' wifes' best friend's brothers' mistresses' fathers' former roomate who swears by allah that every word she said is true.

Do you have any idea how biased any information out of Iraq is, on both sides. you must take info from both sides, run it through a bullshit detector, and then start discussing.

Kobuchi, You can disagree with how things are done, but you can't begin to comment on why things are done. Get your head out of your ass, check your sources for bias as stringently as you check us for it, and take a moment to step back and see the overall scheme. You may still disagree, but perhaps you can eliminate the 'pop media' ramblings shit.

I can comment on why things are done. You can't make an enemy of me; you'll need to look elsewhere.

[superart]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Apparently some rebels believe American soldiers are torturers. Listen to this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In areas controlled by U.S. forces, loudspeakers mounted on Humvees urged that "all fighters in Fallujah should surrender, and we guarantee they will not be killed or insulted."

From a loudspeaker on a mosque still controlled by insurgents, the fighters replied: "We ask the American soldiers to surrender and we guarantee that we will kill and torture them."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there are messages being broadcast from mosques controlled by insurgents saying that any soldier who surrenders will be killed and tortured, then that is their official policy. Then that makes it common practice for the rebels to kill and torture soldiers that have surrendered. Thank you for validating my point.

[Guderian]

I'm saying there is a great hunger in America to find evil abroad.

I would disagree. Most americans have been living in a dream world since the fall of the soviets. I prefer not to use terms like 'evil'; its a bit too indefinable for my tastes. But in the context of your reply, we are not hungry to find evil; instead we are opening our eyes to its (pre)existence and realizing that we havent been taking care of things as much as we may have thought we were.

We could be agreeing, but you're determined the foreigner must be at odds.

The though occurred to me that you could be an expatriate, an emigree, or a normal citizen. I was not directing my comments at you because you are any of the above. I was referring to you because you were speaking for your ENTIRE country, instead of just for you. You of all people would be more aware of your local opinions, but I have a hard time imagining that all of Japan is as firmly against this war given your militarys current involvment. Your prime minister would be out of a job very quickly if that were the case.

I can comment on why things are done. You can't make an enemy of me; you'll need to look elsewhere.

I misspoke. I meant to say you can't have an absolutist opinion that your view of events is the correct one, IE why things are done. I think our differences lie in what we consider biased. I am not trying to make a enemy out of you.

And since this is basically boiling down to the 'perception is reality' arguement, I'll get my first stab out there. Perception is only reality once you stop accepting information.

[superart]

Originally Posted by Guderian

...I have a hard time imagining that all of Japan is as firmly against this war given your militarys current involvment. Your prime minister would be out of a job very quickly if that were the case.

I was under the impression that Japan didn't have a military, only a domestic defense force. Am I wrong?

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Wow. Over half of Iraq's citizens are under 15. So then just the ratio of weapons piled up at elementary schools to Iraqi soldiers must have been enormous. And that would be just a fraction of all the Army's weapons. Why did the Iraqi army have so many more weapons than they could possibly use?

Anyway, that's great you helped keep the kids from playing with weapons.

Did you get to destroy any?

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Try cajoling a toddler off the road while balancing a sleeping baby in one hand and collapsing a stroller with the other. On second thought, better stay in your "real world".

Good job. Rescuing those people does make them heroes. Spread it all around. But how does that not make their methods essentially cowardly, just the same? A soldier putting his own safety ahead of civilians is cowardly, right?

I checked what you said about clearing buildings, and it appears the procedure in Fallujah is to pump the house full of metal, then blast an alternate entry though the wall, because there might be a fighter hiding in there. My apologies if that's just normal, common knowledge. Every house gets this treatment, and since fighters are now popping up in previously cleared neighbourhoods, I guess a lot of buildings will be cleared repeatedly.

This is for the safety of American soldiers. At some point, considering one's own safety at the expense of others becomes cowardice, whether it's one soldier betraying his platoon or one nation betraying the human race. Crossed the line there, don't you think?

Note I'm not suggesting organised cowardice is a poor way to win battles.

Ever been in combat or are you talk about something which you have no experience? The guys clearing the buildings are Marines not soldiers and I will not dignify the cowardice comment.

[Guderian]

I was under the impression that Japan didn't have a military, only a domestic defense force. Am I wrong?

Kobuchi would probably be the better source on this; Prime Minister Koizumi fought fiercely for parliament's approval of a bill that would "allow the dispatch of troops from the Japanese Self Defense Forces" to Iraq for peacekeeping operations, later redefining the bill as one that does not requires the sending of Self-Defense Forces...rather, it's a bill that allows the dispatch of the SDF.

In 1992, Japan passed legislation to allow Japanese troops to join U.N. peacekeeping operations; 1200 troops to Cambodia being the first of these.

To my knowledge, Iraq was the first deployment of troops since World War II, except for U.N.-sanctioned peacekeeping operations.

The Japanese constitution states in Article 9: "The Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes...Land, sea and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized."

Juxta posed to this is fact that Japan warned it would launch a pre-emptive military action against North Korea if it had firm evidence Pyongyang was planning a missile attack.

As for the term 'Miltary', my loose intrepretation may be semantically incorrect, but If they are trained like a soldier, dress like a soldier, and armed like a soldier; they are a soldier, reguardless of deployment location.

[superart]

Cool.

Thanks for clearing that up, Guderian.

[BillA]

did you note that when the Japanese went to Iraq they did so in civvies ?

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by superart

If there are messages being broadcast from mosques controlled by insurgents saying that any soldier who surrenders will be killed and tortured, then that is their official policy. Then that makes it common practice for the rebels to kill and torture soldiers that have surrendered. Thank you for validating my point.

I quoted a single psy-op retort, jeeze. Then you actually spell out a chain of non sequiturs for "validating" yourself, in a post. It's like you can't see what you're doing.

Ah well. Here, you'll like this: Mutilated body of blond woman found in Fallujah

But do keep it in perspective: Welcome to California *yawn*

Maybe we should pound L.A. with howitzers because of the anti-American fighters based there, who brutalise innocent civilians, and also kill and rape foreigners. I demand that the Governor of California hand over the anti-American fighters.

@Guderian. For the record, I'm Canadian. I've lived in Japan and my wife (so half my family) is Japanese. I don't pretend to represent any nation. I didn't mention Japanese sentiment regarding Iraq, as you state here:

Originally Posted by Guderian

...you were speaking for your ENTIRE country, instead of just for you. You of all people would be more aware of your local opinions, but I have a hard time imagining that all of Japan is as firmly against this war given your militarys current involvment.

This is what I said:

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

This is an expression of American culture, and sharply characterises it to outsiders (I can speak for the Japanese perception, at least), though it's not "common practice" at all. I'm talking about perceptions.

I was referring to gruesome acts and how they vary between cultures. The fact is, barbaric acts involving pistols and rape are not only perceived as characteristic of America by foreigners, but Americans seem to accept that barbarism. Then Americans decide beheading is shocking, intolerable. An Arab Muslim might believe that's no worse than what happens once every two minutes in your country. He might think beheading awful and regrettable, but not shocking.

Beheading doesn't shock the Japanese so much either, BTW. When a person in Japan goes nuts, beheading is one possible expression. It's rare, but it's culturally available.

Originally Posted by Guderian

you can't have an absolutist opinion that your view of events is the correct one

I hope not. But I think more crucial than finding good intelligence or a sampling of sources, as you smartly recommend, is understanding why one views in the first place. What's my motive? Of course we all have motives, and for world events IMO they're usually rooted deep. Practically, that means people often cultivate articulate beliefs for very personal reasons even they don't understand. Flame warriors for example. Subtracting the motive releases objectivity.

@Lothar5150. That pic made my day.

No I've never been in combat, and I have little knowledge of military priorities or practices. If you're caught speeding in a school zone, try telling the police they don't know jack about your urgent business, and that your special expertise allows you to put others at risk. Try explaining that to the pedestrian you ran down. See, you're not the only one who can speak about your section of the road, or what you're doing on it.

I'm sure a Marine ordered to jump in the pond takes his boots off at the bottom. They must obey orders for the system to work. I'm sure 99% of Marines would go straight into a suicide mission. That's bravery, and I respect that.

The Marines in Fallujah are prioritising what you may call force protection, in an urban operation where collateral damage is inevitable. Semantics. I would say they've been ordered to occupy a city by the most cowardly means the Pentagon thinks it can get away with, rather harming civilians than see troops suffer the same harm. The siege of Fallujah amounts to a war crime (several), besides incidental war crimes like detaining or firing on ambulances. "Just following orders", you should know, is not a defense recognised by your country or any international court. Pleading ignorance of the law is no defense either, though it plainly helps you along for the moment. Marines are sworn to obey lawful orders. US law recognises the Geneva Conventions - they aren't "foreign" laws.

You won't talk about "cowardice". Lingo then: tell me how "force protection" and "collateral damage" relate.

Originally Posted by Guderian

I don't know the official status of the Japanese soldiers in Iraq. Perhaps it would confirm why they don't venture out of their base except in escorted supply convoys. They could be stationed in Antarctica for all they do there. It seems they're only in Iraq to round out the "multinational forces" as it is on paper, no more.

[Guderian]

did you note that when the Japanese went to Iraq they did so in civvies ?

I guess I should say two out of three is good enough for me then...

I didn't mention Japanese sentiment regarding Iraq, as you state ....

(I can speak for the Japanese perception, at least)

So the Japanese perception is about 'american barbarism' in general, not specific to Iraq?

The fact is, barbaric acts involving pistols and rape are not only perceived as characteristic of America by foreigners, but Americans seem to accept that barbarism.

So violent acts involving handguns, and nonconsensual sex are an American cultural export?
And we're okay with that?

I can't believe that is your meaning; please clarify it, if you don't mind.

The siege of Fallujah amounts to a war crime (several), besides incidental war crimes like detaining or firing on ambulances. "Just following orders", you should know, is not a defense recognised by your country or any international court. Pleading ignorance of the law is no defense either, though it plainly helps you along for the moment. Marines are sworn to obey lawful orders. US law recognises the Geneva Conventions - they aren't "foreign" laws.

You won't talk about "cowardice". Lingo then: tell me how "force protection" and "collateral damage" relate.

First, there were a great many things done to prevent as much collateral damage as possible. Second, there is no law preventing you from firing on an ambulance, unless it is being used for its sole purpose, and only its sole purpose of moving the injured. Once you violate that, no amount of collateral damage will change the (international laws) view of its legality: its a legal target. Our soldiers are trained on ROE and LOAC ad naseum. Any violation is a deviation from the norm. Third, How do you know that there are war crimes being commited in theater? What method of validation/verification are you relying on to stand behind these statements.


I take it you meant the last quote for me, not as a quote of me. Off Topic: I see that support as a japanese play for future aid against a Korean threat; how about you?

[superart]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I quoted a single psy-op retort, jeeze. Then you actually spell out a chain of non sequiturs for "validating" yourself, in a post. It's like you can't see what you're doing.

WTH? I was merely commenting on your source.
If the insurgents are broadcasting something over mass media, then that is their official stance. If their official stance is that they will kill/torture any surendering soldiers, then we have a problem.

[BillA]

one needs to speak clearly in a language that can be understood

does anyone recall the only Russian diplomat ever kidnapped in Beruit ?
what did they say (or do ?) that caused there NEVER to be another instance of Moslems kidnapping another Russian diplomat ?

does the trash-talker know ?

[superart]

Seeing how the Russians have handled hostage situations recently, they prolly just killed the diplomat themselves, along with the kidnappers.


No sereously, Iv'e never heard of this. More info please.

[BillA]

much more elegant

[superart]

They said mean things about the kidnappers' mothers, causing them to bust out crying and just give up?


im googleing his, btw, just havent found anything yet.

[BillA]

they found the brother of the kidnapper and sent the nephew (son of the brother) to his uncle with a paper bag
inside the bag were the balls of the kidnapper's brother

no Russian was ever kidnapped again

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

No I've never been in combat, and I have little knowledge of military priorities or practices.

Then please stop the running commentary on tactical and operational level practices. As you, obviously lack the formal education or combat experience to comment on ether.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I'm sure a Marine ordered to jump in the pond takes his boots off at the bottom. They must obey orders for the system to work. I'm sure 99% of Marines would go straight into a suicide mission. That's bravery, and I respect that.

Again, you lack any qualification. No one volunteers for suicide missions...only dangerous missions and no one is required to obey an illegal order.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

The Marines in Fallujah are prioritizing what you may call force protection, in an urban operation where collateral damage is inevitable. Semantics. I would say they've been ordered to occupy a city by the most cowardly means the Pentagon thinks it can get away with, rather harming civilians than see troops suffer the same harm. The siege of Fallujah amounts to a war crime (several), besides incidental war crimes like detaining or firing on ambulances. "Just following orders", you should know, is not a defense recognized by your country or any international court. Pleading ignorance of the law is no defense either, though it plainly helps you along for the moment. Marines are sworn to obey lawful orders. US law recognizes the Geneva Conventions - they aren't "foreign" laws.

You won't talk about "cowardice". Lingo then: tell me how "force protection" and "collateral damage" relate.

Your continued misuse of the term force protection and war crime only highlights your ignorance. I would recommend that you limit yourself to talking about the political aspects of Americas involvement in Iraq, as this is an area were someone of your obvious rudimentary understanding of the military can have a valid opinion.

Yes, we do respect the Laws of Land Warfare as defined the Geneva Conversions. That is why you see sentences being handed down for the perpetrators of the incidents at Abu Ghraib Prison and why the Marine who shot that (almost dead) terrorist in the head on Saturday will likely go to jail now. Ironically, you don’t see the terrorist putting anyone on trial for cutting the heads off civilian prisoners or for violating and dismembering female aid workers.

[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by unregistered

one needs to speak clearly in a language that can be understood

One must first establish to the audience one's supportively entrenched position. One should then employ Powerpoint.

Lothar5150, superart. You're both posting reflexively as though my motive is to attack you. You can't engage my points if they cut both ways. You don't offer anything in reply that isn't partisan, and in debating terms, offensive. Discussion is impossible.

Guderian. I'm relieved see you're not trying to make an enemy of me. I look forward to us disagreeing on some points.