Sidewinder TC-4 vs Geminicool spiral block

[Haddy]

Originally posted by jaydee116

There temps are exellent though. Check this out: http://www.overclockers.com/articles546/

yea well the lack of tec support is also a major kicker with me

[Fixittt]

I think the block is great. Its beautiful, small, preforms well.

I am gonna use it in a machine, most defonitly.

its a nice peice of work for what its purpose is. And desivers the respect for that.

[DodgeViper]

After running Prime95 for 4 hours my cpu temps were 35c. My ambient case temps were 20c and my idled cpu temps were 30c. My vote is for the Gemini High Volume Block. Update on this post. I was using a t-bird 1.4 @1534.

[xerka]

how about you just buy both blocks ablaze?

[ablaze]

Originally posted by xerka
how about you just buy both blocks ablaze?

i'm thinking of giving up trying to decide (as you can see the votes are exactly equal now!) and getting this cyclone5 instead..hehe http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...?threadid=2640

[Haddy]

sooo many choices.....so little money

[Pinkster]

well i gotta say that watercooling is getting to the stage where there are a few excellent blocks around, so excellent that i think they are getting close to the limits of straight watercooling. just that some acheive this limit with less flow that others (ie a gemini normal channel)... which is why unless you want to use pelts i think the gemini is an excellent block, as it dosent require a huge pump (1048 is sufficent), looks pretty cool i think and isnt gonna fall off the cpu due to a massive weight... one thing against the gemini though is that with less copper should the pump fail i would imagine there is a greater chance of cooking your cpu, as some of the bigger blocks have been reported to keep a cpu below 60 degrees C idle temps when the pump fails (not a big problem with pumps like eheim obviously)

considering youve already got a massive 1060 i think you could put a lump of lead on you cpu, drill a hole through it, put on some barbs and still get good temps.. so i say get whatever is more conveinient, or cheaper, or whatever you think looks better cause with a huge pump like that the difference in temps between most blocks will be negligeble

[Haddy]

Originally posted by Pinkster
well i gotta say that watercooling is getting to the stage where there are a few excellent blocks around, so excellent that i think they are getting close to the limits of straight watercooling. just that some acheive this limit with less flow that others (ie a gemini normal channel)... which is why unless you want to use pelts i think the gemini is an excellent block, as it dosent require a huge pump (1048 is sufficent), looks pretty cool i think and isnt gonna fall off the cpu due to a massive weight... one thing against the gemini though is that with less copper should the pump fail i would imagine there is a greater chance of cooking your cpu, as some of the bigger blocks have been reported to keep a cpu below 60 degrees C idle temps when the pump fails (not a big problem with pumps like eheim obviously)

considering youve already got a massive 1060 i think you could put a lump of lead on you cpu, drill a hole through it, put on some barbs and still get good temps.. so i say get whatever is more conveinient, or cheaper, or whatever you think looks better cause with a huge pump like that the difference in temps between most blocks will be negligeble

yea the gemini is an ok block...but u limit urself for no tecs....GOTTA HAVE A TEC OR TWO!

[Cyco-Dude]

Originally posted by Pinkster
well i gotta say that watercooling is getting to the stage where there are a few excellent blocks around, so excellent that i think they are getting close to the limits of straight watercooling.

i dont think so at all; ppl will find better ways to make blocks and i think the performance will continue to increase over time. but anyhow....didnt he say he was getting that Silverprop block?

[ablaze]

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude

i dont think so at all; ppl will find better ways to make blocks and i think the performance will continue to increase over time. but anyhow....didnt he say he was getting that Silverprop block?

yeah..I am. hopefully by the end of the week i'll post some pics if I can

[Pinkster]

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude

i dont think so at all; ppl will find better ways to make blocks and i think the performance will continue to increase over time. but anyhow....didnt he say he was getting that Silverprop block?

cpu temps are now getting so close to ambient with some of these waterblocks that it cant get much lower... the gemini is getting what, cpu load temp of 7 degrees C above ambient... a few other blocks are around that mark as well... without using a water chiller or pelts you really cant expect temps on a socket athlon to get more that a couple of degrees lower than they are now...

[Haddy]

Originally posted by Pinkster


cpu temps are now getting so close to ambient with some of these waterblocks that it cant get much lower... the gemini is getting what, cpu load temp of 7 degrees C above ambient... a few other blocks are around that mark as well... without using a water chiller or pelts you really cant expect temps on a socket athlon to get more that a couple of degrees lower than they are now...

maybe so...but what bout the new hammers, gona have lower temps with those...pretty soon well all get ambiant

[decodeddiesel]

Originally posted by Haddy
maybe so...but what bout the new hammers, gona have lower temps with those...pretty soon well all get ambiant

Within the tollerances of the temp measurment perhaps it would show your temp at ambient but you are forgetting one thing, the laws of Thermodynamics. You would have to have a "perfect" system which for all intents and purposes is a scientific impossibility. Yes we will be getting closer and closer to ambient as water cooling technology evolves and as processor power requirments drop but no one will ever achieve ambient temps from an active heat load with watercooling.

[Brad]

7C is based on a certain cpu wattage.with a 2ghz XP and 2.4v, you'd be no where near 7C.

there is still a lot of room to improve waterblocks

[Pinkster]

yes but with the .13 chips we wont be getting heat outputs close to an xp at 2.2v and higher... so probably 7 degrees (just an estimate) probably is about accurate with a good block, and i fail to see how you could get temps more than a couple of degrees better than that with straight watercooling..

of course who knows what will happen an a year or more down the track and what kind of heat outputs cpu's will be putting out, and i dont know how heatspreaders on amd cpu's down the track will have (heatspreaders may favour larger blocks instead of smaller gemini blocks by my thinking)... but i think that heat outputs wont get much higher than we have at the moment, and i still think the gemini is an excellent block..

[schoolie]

I've heard estimates of only 15%-20% heat reduction for the t-breds. Also, the cores will be smaller which will reduce the heat transfer to the block.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by schoolie
I've heard estimates of only 15%-20% heat reduction for the t-breds. Also, the cores will be smaller which will reduce the heat transfer to the block.

That is a considerable amount. Takes a 80watt CPU and drops it to 64watts back into the Duron Morgan level. Thats huge.

[schoolie]

Hi Jaydee!

It is a big decrease in power. I guess my point is that they will produce about the same amount of heat as the current models because they will be clocked higher.


--Rob

[jaydee]

Originally posted by schoolie
Hi Jaydee!

It is a big decrease in power. I guess my point is that they will produce about the same amount of heat as the current models because they will be clocked higher.


--Rob

If they use less power (which I heard 1.5V) then even higher clocked will not get as hot untill it reaches the end of it clock limit(which probably will not be to long the way it goes now days). So yes it should still be good. Cooler running chips is a good thing, that means the water coolers can provide even more cooling power to push the CPU that much harder. I think....

[schoolie]

I'm such a good thread hijacker I think the t-breds will run at 1.65V. What do you think about the smaller core size? I would think it would be a problem for heat transfer, but I guess they will produce less heat.

[redleader]

If they use less power (which I heard 1.5V) then even higher clocked will not get as hot untill it reaches the end of it clock limit(which probably will not be to long the way it goes now days).

Hey Jaydee, guess what the first Socket A 180nm chips ran at . . . Thats right 1.5v (typing on one now actually). They sure as hell didn't stay there.

Somehow I doubt TBred will either.

That is a considerable amount. Takes a 80watt CPU and drops it to 64watts back into the Duron Morgan level. Thats huge.

Yes but TBred is about 80mm^2 (IIRC) verses 128mm^2 for Paly. So while heat maybe 20% less, you have only ~63% of the surface area to conduct it with. That means that the thermal density is actually increasing, not droping.

[Brad]

when we changed to .18 from .25 there was a big reduction, and everyone was happy for a while, then with TBirds above 1ghz we hit the same thing again, especially with the 1.4ghz. The the AXP came out with reduced power, everyone became happy again, then 2000+ and 2100+ came out, making it hotter again. Now we are all seeing .13u as the saviour. It isn't really that great. sure it will use lower voltage, and lower heat at first, but by the end of the model line we will be above what the current 2100+ is doing

[Psychotic]

Blah... screw this .13µ stuff. I'm waiting to see Prestonia at .09µ.

[Haddy]

Originally posted by Brad
when we changed to .18 from .25 there was a big reduction, and everyone was happy for a while, then with TBirds above 1ghz we hit the same thing again, especially with the 1.4ghz. The the AXP came out with reduced power, everyone became happy again, then 2000+ and 2100+ came out, making it hotter again. Now we are all seeing .13u as the saviour. It isn't really that great. sure it will use lower voltage, and lower heat at first, but by the end of the model line we will be above what the current 2100+ is doing

yea but wuznt the t-bird the same voltage as the xp...1.75? i thought the new line would be lower...around 1.6 i herd

[Psychotic]

Originally posted by Haddy
yea but wuznt the t-bird the same voltage as the xp...1.75? i thought the new line would be lower...around 1.6 i herd

Methinks you are correct Haddy.

[EMC2]

Smaller feature size - definitely.
Lower Vcore (stock) - probably.
Smaller die size - probably.
Higher transistor count - {maybe}
Higher frequency of operation - definitely.

Lower Vcore helps reduce power.
Smaller Die size makes it harder to conduct the thermal energy to the block.
Higher transistor count means more power.
Higher frequency of operation means more power.

End result - impossible to call at this point and speculative.

{Another big unknown - the "heat spreader". If done right it can help - if done poorly (P4 is an example) it hurts.}

{editted - was thinking claw, so transistor count and spreader comments don't apply to the breads, everything else still applicable}

[schoolie]

Interesting EMC2. I thought the t-bred had exactly the same design as the Paly, only differing in scale. Maybe they will need to modify the design to compensate for the smaller element size. The engineering sample I saw didn't use heat spreaders---and yes it's pure speculation, but it sure beats working.

Well, I might as well take this thread to Cuba Think the t-breds will be more easily damaged by overvolting?

[jaydee]

Finally found a good quote:

So the 2600+, 2400+, 2200+ and the 2000+ at .13 micron will have a core voltage of 1.60 volts, use a maximum power of less than 72 watts, and all will use the famous "organic package" we spoke of before.

AMD warns that changes for Thoroughbred, given Palomino as the starting point, mean system integrators should be aware the CPUID will be 680h, voltage 1.60V, and PowerNow frequency switching may be turned on. Passive components will now go back on the top of the CPU package.

It will have a 80 millimetre square die and use the .13 micron process that is currently sampling.

Going to be interesting!!!

[schoolie]

Good information! Thanks JD

[jaydee]

I wonder what "Power Now Frequency Switching" is and what it does? man can't wait to see some results from one of these.