An Open Letter to "Feathers"

[BillA]

VP of Engn at Swiftech
for starters, look here at some TEC devices
the MCX4000-T™ is listed on the front page dropdown
- we just finished a run of several hundred air cooled TEC heads for an industrial client
note that having experienced competent engineers as customers permits the effective utilization of devices that are 'too complicated' for the typical DIY market
(did I say that gently enough ?)

your attention is drawn to the MCW-CHILL, about which pHaestus had a little thread here

the graph posted above is one of 20 or 30 related to TEC device testing

YOUR qualifications will be evaluated when you post your first data set
(so we can evaluate just how well you understand, and can execute a test program)

EDIT: yes Ben, we sell those too

[msv]

Originally Posted by feathers

Yes, of course Unreg.

Thanks for your kind input.

Would you care to share your own experience of peltier systems with me?

(I am generally interested to hear what people have to say).

Are You sure You´ve grown thick hide yet?
At least You´re going to get an answer well based on experience. Quite a lot of experience, in fact. Pay heed.
regards
Mikael S.

[feathers]

"Bill is THE pioneer of testing. Dismiss him all you want, but he's more than qualified to talk about what he does." - Well if he ever finds the 'right stuff' to talk about what it is he does, then I might be inclined to listen. If all he does however - is make judgements and assumptions then he will be wasting his time with me. I don't care how many disciples jump to his defense.. If the man is really that smart then I might also expect him not to write someone off in such a pompous way. Bottom line is that he doesn't know the amount of testing that's been done here. We've been selling these things for several years and never had a single one returned due to 'poor performance'. We've had nothing but positive comments from customers.

Now I fully accept that things are changing rapidly and that the 130W has had it's day as far as cooling goes for the latest designs. We already knew this anyhow.. It's just that we are still in the process of completing the website and also acquiring a new range of stock.

Would I be able to maintain a TEC's temperature at a set value? If I put my mind to it, yes. I have a workshop full of electronic components, testing gear, design books, PIC programming tools along with a number of years experience with digital and analog circuit design. Perhaps we will offer a system which maintain's the TEC's temp at ambient for some customers or one which keeps the temp at zero. I don't know at this stage, but there are plenty of options.

I have been more than ready to accept criticism or advice from people on this forum. I draw the line however, at miserable sh*ts (and this isn't aimed solely at Bill) who stand in line to jump on someone for entertainment.

So, I'm wrong about Bill, am I? Well perhaps he's wrong about me too..

I want to see if he is capable of positive output as well as negative?

EDIT:

"note that having experienced competent engineers as customers permits the effective utilization of devices that are 'too complicated' for the typical DIY market
(did I say that gently enough ?)" - So you're saying the average joe is too dumb to use a Swiftech MCX4000-T without frying his CPU?

EDIT-2:

"for starters, look here at some TEC devices
the MCX4000-T™ is listed on the front page dropdown" - I looked and I have seen it before. I actually have a Swiftech MCX4000 which is essentially the same as the 'T' but without the peltier+coldplate. As heatsinks go it's very nice but your advertising suggests an 80CFM to cool it. I happen to know from experience that an 80CFM fan to cool even a 130W peltier yields poor results. I wonder how it is then that your ad can recommend an 80CFM fan (not very powerful) for a 226W peltier?

Your most recent comment about the MCX4000-T being 'too complicated' for chimps probably serves to illustrate my point better. We have some customers who use the 130W cooled by Thermalright SLK heatsink with dual coldplate (mod). The reported temps are pretty similar to that displayed in your MCX462-T's chart. Since the customer in question is using a 130W pelt then I'm just wondering how it is that your 226 pelt is able to deliver the same temps with a fan which is absolutely and utterly inadequate? We know from experience that a heatsink such as the 462-T or MCX4000-T can only perform satisfactorily with the addition of a custom air-delivery system! Is this what you delicately refer to in your 'too complicated for DIY market' ?

Are you going to insist that the MCX4000-T with 226W pelt cooled by an 80CFM fan can perform satisfactorily?

[BillA]

show us a image of your MCX4000 after you converted it to a MCX4000-T please

yes feathers,
I am directly questioning YOUR ability to EFFECTIVELY add a TEC to the MCX4000
no words please, just the images of the assembled TEC unit
(and if my suppositions are shown incorrect by your images (no words, eh ?), I will retract those incorrect statements I may have made)

your questions about temperatures are revealing:
"Since the customer in question is using a 130W pelt then I'm just wondering how it is that your 226 pelt is able to deliver the same temps with a fan which is absolutely and utterly inadequate?"

perfectly clear to me
you need to do some testing at high heat loads to reveal the specifics of the individual components' temperature gradients
- when I said you did not have a clue I was not joking, now you are demonstrating the 'depth' of your knowledge

start posting hard data, shit can the words

[redleader]

Nevermind. I don't want a part of this thread.

[feathers]

Originally Posted by unregistered

show us a image of your MCX4000 after you converted it to a MCX4000-T please

yes feathers,
I am directly questioning YOUR ability to EFFECTIVELY add a TEC to the MCX4000
no words please, just the images of the assembled TEC unit
(and if my suppositions are shown incorrect by your images (no words, eh ?), I will retract those incorrect statements I may have made)

your questions about temperatures are revealing:
"Since the customer in question is using a 130W pelt then I'm just wondering how it is that your 226 pelt is able to deliver the same temps with a fan which is absolutely and utterly inadequate?"

perfectly clear to me
you need to do some testing at high heat loads to reveal the specifics of the individual components' temperature gradients
- when I said you did not have a clue I was not joking, now you are demonstrating the 'depth' of your knowledge

start posting hard data, shit can the words

"show us a image of your MCX4000 after you converted it to a MCX4000-T please" - Nowhere in my text did I state that I converted the MCX4000 to the 'T' variant. What I said was: 'the MCX4000 is essentially the same heatsink as the 'T' (with an integrated coldplate/insulation and 220W TEC). Are you going to tell me that the MCX4000 as described on your site is an entirely different heatsink? If you intend to do that then please explain why both heatsinks have the same designation code?

Uhhh.. You didn't answer my questions/observations about the 462-T or the 4000-T? How can Swiftech claim that an 80CFM fan is sufficient to cool these units with a 220W peltier? I know from testing that it isn't. So.. Will you or will you not explain your comment about the MCX4000-T now being sold only to industry?

The issue here isn't what we have done with an MCX4000. It is how Swiftech can claim on their website that an 80CFM fan is sufficient to cool the MCX4000-T with 220W peltier!?? I suspect you have avoided answering this question because we both know that an 80CFM can't cool an MCX4000-T with 220W peltier.

I put it to you sir, that this is why you made the comment about the 4000-T being sold only to industry/professionals. I very much doubt those 'professionals' are cooling the heatsink with an 80CFM fan! I suggest that this was the reason Swiftech withdrew the mcx4000-T from sale to the 'ordinary user'.

[BillA]

yea redleader, I screwed up

last run feathers:
numbers, quote specific test results
words don't count (look how easily I mis-understood you to have tested a Swiftech TEC product)
be assured that few here may care what you think, but ALL will have an interest in actual test data

got that ?
data, numbers, defined relationships

[feathers]

"(look how easily I mis-understood you to have tested a Swiftech TEC product)" -

You misunderstood because you so full of it (That's kind of what I've been trying to tell you from day 1 !)

You made the same pompous judgements about me in your very first message!

You misunderstand so easily because you act like a jerk. Simple as that! :-)

Let the record show that AKA BILLA refused to answer the questions concerning the Swiftech MCX4000-T and 80CFM Fan.

(I know I can be pompous as well.. It's just that you seem to do it on a much grander scale!)

I suggest that you avoided answering that question because you know that you/swiftech: f*cked up!

:-)

I may be an ignorant schmuck as far as you're concerned.. But you can hardly point your little pointy-finger at me when you have such glaringly false and inaccurate garbage on your own site!

Duh!

Ladies and gentlemen.. I put it to you that said heatsink (MCX4000-T) could in no way be cooled by a conventional fan rated at 80CFM!

I guess your fan-club will stay silent on that one, hey?

:-)

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by feathers

Ladies and gentlemen.. I put it to you that said heatsink (MCX4000-T) could in no way be cooled by a conventional fan rated at 80CFM!

I guess your fan-club will stay silent on that one, hey?

:-)

Ummm, right off their webpage:

Features :

The MCX4000-T™ is a fully assembled air-cooled thermoelectric (Peltier) solution designed to manage thermal loads of up to 100 Watts. The product is intended for applications where liquid cooling is not an option.

Features highlights:

226 Watts Thermoelectric module

Optimal cooling capacity: will dissipate 70 Watts continuous thermal load to ambient temperature with 80CFM fan.


Hybrid copper base, thin aluminum pin heatsink: thanks to it's massive 3/8" thick copper base, the MCX4000-T™ is the first commercial air-cooled heatsink on the market capable of absorbing, and dissipating the combined thermal load produced by a thermoelectric module of this class, and the latest generations of Intel® micro-processor.

Patented Helicoid pin design (U.S. patent 6,469,898) : pins are individually machined in an helicoid shape, to increase their surface area, and further enhance heat dissipation efficiency.

What exactly is the mis information?

[feathers]

As I have asked Mr AKABILLA to explain: Why is it then that such a simple and effective design is no longer for use by 'ordinary people' ?

The man was clearly suggesting that it was sold to professionals/industry only - because it was too complicated to be used by an ordinary pleb.

It do seem that you people are mighty good at quoting information posted on websites. right down to the patent number and individually machined pins.

So.. It's capable of dissipating the heat load from a 226W peltier & >=60W cpu core using an 80CFM fan?

"What exactly is the mis information?" - The misinformation is that Swiftech stated to me that the unit was no longer available due to design/performance issues.

Therefore I would like AKABILL Unreg to explain how such a simple design is now beyond the grasp of the ordinary user?

Would the man care to answer my questions?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by feathers

As I have asked Mr AKABILLA to explain: Why is it then that such a simple and effective design is no longer for use by 'ordinary people' ?

The man was clearly suggesting that it was sold to professionals/industry only - because it was too complicated to be used by an ordinary pleb.

It do seem that you people are mighty good at quoting information posted on websites. right down to the patent number and individually machined pins.

So.. It's capable of dissipating the heat load from a 226W peltier & >=60W cpu core using an 80CFM fan?

Would the man care to answer my questions?

Only thing i saw about not being a public thing:

Originally Posted by unregistered

(pleeze folks, the MCW5360-T is an 'industrial' product not available to OCers)

Seen nothing about the 4000-T. I don't understand what your problem is with it. It will do what it says. What BillA is trying to say is prove it wrong with data not words saying it will not work.

EDIT: Also it is called copy and pasting.

[feathers]

I was in contact with Swiftech last year (they setup a dealer account for me). Although the MCX4000-T was listed on their site. There was no purchase option for it. When I queried them about it, I was told that the unit was no longer available due to performance issues.

Now I am to believe that the MCX4000-T is available to industry only. Just wondering why that is? (given that Bill has suggested it's too complicated for the average joe to use).

I would like to know why this heatsink is supposedly beyond the grasp/abilities of the ordinary user (given that some of my customers are using peltiers with bolt-down heatsinks from Thermalright!).

"(pleeze folks, the MCW5360-T is an 'industrial' product not available to OCers" - Since when is an MCW5360 an MCX4000-T?

Swiftech were selling air-cooled peltier heatsinks to the ordinary consumer. They have now withdrawn all air-cooled heatsinks from sale to the consumer.

Note: A quick check on their website reveals the MCX4000-T is back on display. Does that mean it is or it isn't available to the consumer?

[Incoherent]

The spec there is talking about maintaining around about ambient T with a 70W heat load. Seems reasonable to me, it would only need to be dissipating 120-ish watts. An 80CFM fan should do this OK, subject to caseflow and power considerations.
Do you have data contradicting this? That would be very interesting. Or at least some summary of your experiences would be of more interest than the bad mouthing.
Although it IS rather entertaining. But it does not make for a particularly good sales pitch, either for your point or your product.

Cheers

Incoherent

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by Incoherent

Although it IS rather entertaining. But it does not make for a particularly good sales pitch, either for your point or your product.

I have to agree it is entertaining.
Ever watch the govermnet in a debate... it is funny as heII.... it is a wonder that anything get's done with all the bashing they do... they never answer each others questions, just dance alround and do name calling... can we change this thread name to "Politics with Feathers"

[feathers]

Unfortunatly I have developed this argumentative attitude from posting at one particular off-topic forum elsewhere (We argue on everything from pieces of cheese to metaphysics).

I suppose it's a good way to relieve stress sometimes (but of course it can be very stressful in itself).

The time spent arguing on this forum has already caused me to re-think many issues (and so for all of the bickering - I still see it as being valuable/useful/enlightening).

I believe that one of the reasons I get so angry is because my business really has been working very well over the past few years. We have sold a lot of peltiers and during that time have had to replace only one unit (returned as DOA).

We've always received positive comments from customers (until the past 4 weeks or so). One customer using a 130W with heatsink/fan was expecting temperatures below ambient (although there have been many things which needed changing/re-wording we have always made it clear that air-cooled pelts simply don't work as well as watercooled units). The customer in question got temps of 25C (I guess that was lower limit although he didn't make that clear). That particular customer was in the process of switching to water anyway.

It is only over the past month that we have thought seriously about phasing out the 130W and adding more powerful units.

I can certainly appreciate that many things needed to change with the website. If we were to continue selling the 130W for CPU cooling then we would run into serious problems. But it has worked very well for us over the past few years and not a single complaint!

I think that counts for something. But I can certainly appreciate where you guys are coming from when you state the need for proof and concrete data.

[Zogthetroll]

well, i'm not even going to bother getting involved in this debate, the only comment I have is regarding the web site. fix all the pages so they can be read through without scrolling from side to side (a sign of a well-designed page, not to mention less of an annoyance to potential customers ), I have a 17" monitor and still have to move back & forth. Ideally, someone with a 15" monitor should be able to read your site without haveing to do that. also, as you have recognized, there needs to be a balance regarding the content of the site. part of the reason why I hang out here at procooling, is that its such a great source of information, I know that the guys here will present all aspects of a product or idea, both good and bad, and if you want your site to be a more informative site for people looking to be involved with TEC usage, then give them as accurate a picture as possible, not just an extreme to counter those that shun TECs as evil. that's all, carry on.

[Bignuts]

Another waste of time and energy.

[feathers]

Hi Zog:

I will look into the issue of sideways scrolling website (not running in 800x600 are you?) although the text boundaries should never expand past 95% of the screen width!??

The site is certainly undergoing a major rewrite and the focus will now be on presenting both the pros and cons of extreme-cooling (much of the text has already been rewritten but I don't think it's been uploaded yet). The rewrite will also be less of a statement or reaction against anti-tec people and more about showing that TE cooling can work well if the right procedures are followed.

May also add some more humour there as well (although the 'brainwashing' text was more of a joke aimed at Procooling members).

Thanks for the input.

EDIT: I like that clear case cube of yours. Been thinking of changing to a clear case myself. The box I have at the moment is beautiful (brushed alu with UV acrylic panels and UV leds) but it's very small.

EDIT: Always remember to use that EDIT Button.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by feathers

EDIT: I like that clear case cube of yours. Been thinking of changing to a clear case myself. The box I have at the moment is beautiful (brushed alu with UV acrylic panels and UV leds) but it's very small.

On the upside... Feathers now uses the EDIT button

[feathers]

Yes he sure do.

:-)

[deathBOB]

Yall have to much free time...

[bigben2k]

I agree with Bob, above.


Feathers, please, please take a minute, and check out this page:
http://www.overclockers.com/topiclist/index31.asp#WATER COOLING

It contains all the water cooling related articles that OverClockers has published. Now run a search for Bill's articles: read them! In particular, the radiator roundup, and the individual components he tested, especially the latest ones, as well as the details of the testbench he used (worth in excess of $20'000 btw).

That should give you a preliminary estimate of what Bill can do. I don't care if he's grumpy: "niceness" is a luxury. He's grumpy, and we all live with it!

What Bill is now asking, is that you show some testing data, to backup any claim of "temperature" or "efficiency", claimed or implied, related to your product and/or anything you've posted, here or elsewhere (he's tracking you, trust me! ).

Like I said, testing isn't anywhere near being easy. That's why I created the WBTA, so that those interested in testing can get together and share resources, ideas, and eventually cross-test some water blocks. Ok, enough pitching of the radio station...

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Zogthetroll

well, i'm not even going to bother getting involved in this debate, the only comment I have is regarding the web site. fix all the pages so they can be read through without scrolling from side to side (a sign of a well-designed page, not to mention less of an annoyance to potential customers ), I have a 17" monitor and still have to move back & forth.

I got a 14" screen on this laptop and a 19" on my desktop both at 1024x768 and I just went through the entire site on both and didn't have any side scrolling? Looked good to me.

[Zogthetroll]

@ feathers; thanks, I had a blast making that case & it's always nice to have one's work noticed, unfortunately I had to part with it (still in the family though, so maybe one day i'll get it back )
and yeah, i'm still using 800x600, so sue me. to be honest the only page i really had trouble with was the TEC information page, i think. still, it was one of the ones with the most text on it, so it was the most noticeable. the others were merely the header extending off of the side of the page. and not really a big deal, but I figured i'd mention it since it is a commercial site, and part of good business is making the site as user-friendly as possible, so people will come back. and 800x600 is still the lowest common denominator, so to speak. also, I couldn't tell if the links at the beginning were looping continuously, or stopped after a bit, nice graphics, but the looping was annoying. also, some text to label the pics might be nice, a.) for those who aren't quite sure what the pictures link to, and b.) for those with crappy dial-up connection. again, these are only suggestions though, feel free to ignore them as you wish, or not, your call.

[feathers]

Thanks for the pointers, Zog.

It should be fairly easy to make the pages compatible with 8x6.

The very first intro page with the Flash isn't complete! (you'd think we would have completed that first, right?). I might also shrink down the graphics/flash on that intro page because I think it's oversized. The intro page needs to be finished though and the animation will also be finished.

All the suggestions you made are valid and they will effect the outcome of the final design.

:-)