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Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it |
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#51 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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#52 | |
Cooling Savant
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Last edited by nicozeg; 08-26-2003 at 10:48 PM. |
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#53 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
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JD: are you gonna build the chiller custom or convert it from an old air conditioner.
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"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" |
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#54 | |
Put up or Shut Up
Join Date: Dec 2001
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#55 | |
Put up or Shut Up
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#56 |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
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It was from Cathar's testing. 8 deg C is the gradient through the TIM joint, given an 80W source.
I still have to test those Thermagon samples... but I don't expect much. I really gotta put a testbench together. |
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#57 | |
Cooling Savant
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#58 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Desert City in California
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He is gonna use them to make a chiller.
BrianW
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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose). Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently. Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg) |
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#59 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Roughly speaking it was showing around a 0.08 to 0.10 C/W for the thermal interface junction (when using goop) for a 100mm^2 heat die. |
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#60 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
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http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...threadid=67401 The Off-forum,rather inadequate analysis of the data should be treated very cautiously. To assume the same TIM Joint resistance for different wbs is dangerous and can lead to possibly erroneous conclusions.For example would suspect that the fly-cut(?) surface of "The Cascade" produces a lower TIM joint resistance than the hand-lapped " White-Water".Think it is inconclusive that the reduction in temperatures for "The Cascade" is due to lower Convective Resistance and not due to a lower TIM Joint resistance. |
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#61 | |
Cooling Savant
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#62 | |
Thermophile
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The fly-cut is an initial step that removes the "dirty" section of the extruded copper that typically has streaks of air-bubbles just tiny fractions of a millimeter under the surface. On the White Water's I had to "lap" though that section. On the Cascade's that is just fly-cut away. The fly-cut doesn't produce a particularly flat surface at all. It is ridged enough such that you can feel it with your fingernail, hence the hand-lapping of the block after being fly-cut. |
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#63 | |
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#64 | |
Cooling Savant
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#65 | ||
Cooling Savant
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Quote:
For an 1cm2 die and 80W load that gives 2ºC temp drop. The big variable here is layer thickness; it can be even lower on a good base and high pressure. Then there are some specific issues with BillA tests: The CPU die simulator that he have used for all his WB tests can not measure just the [block + tim] C/W; it measures [Block + tim + temp gradient to the probe location on the simulator] C/W. That's why he have a fixed 0.1 C/W added to each block own termal resistance; most of it comes fron the probe positioning, and a small part from the tim. The cause of this is what I consider a wrong decision on the design of bill's simulator: He placed the probe some milimeters lower than the surface, and on one side. While all recomendations are to place the probe at the center and as close to the surface as possible. Sorry if this is threadjacking, just wanted to make clear that one of the suposed advantages of direct die is not as big as the mith says. |
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#66 | |
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#67 |
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Duron 1.3gig arrived a few minutes ago.
DHD1300AMT1B AHLDA 0239HPEW 94187921227 |
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#68 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: WI
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On the topic of the Thermagon stuff: I tried that out on my P4 w/ IHS. I set the FSB as low as possible, as I was worried about what might go wrong if it didn't work, so my processor was running at 1.7Ghz and 1.7V. I let Prime95 run for about a half hour, and the temp settled at 67*C, aircooled using an AX478 and 80mm Tornado. Mind you, I got 60*C earlier using OCZ UltraII @ 2.8Ghz. After seeing that, I took off the heatsink, and the TIM only had one small spot that had 'smoothed' out a bit, right over the core. The rest of the TIM looked the same as when I first put it in. My thoughts on this:
My temp probe could be massively off, as it might not be hitting the needed 60*C mark to 'melt' right I didn't give it long enough to work The P4 heatspreader actually does its job and diffuses enough heat where it won't work well. If anyone else has some thoughts on this, I'd like to hear them. I'm open to trying different procedures, assuming they won't wreck my P4 in the process. BTW, it's a P4 2.26Ghz, on an Abit IT7 BO(V)BZ |
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#69 | |
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#70 |
Thermophile
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A few points to make on the thermal paste and base-flatness.
1) The White Water and Cascade blocks that I used for testing were both lapped by me at the same time. I actually lapped each block twice. I did not use the block that was sent to BillA. 2) The raw thermal conductivity of a thermal paste is NOT the way to predict the thermal conductivity through a thermal interface. Using this conductivity assumes a 100% molecular interaction between both surfaces and all molecules of the thermal paste. Here's an example. Copper has a thermal conductivity of ~395W/mK, far better than the ~9W/mK of AS3, so why not just lap flat a piece of copper and stick that in between the CPU and the heat sink? The answer, of course, is spreadability. However, and I posit, that it is very wrong to assume that even AS3 will give you anything like a 100% efficient thermal contact patch. We know this to be true because AS3 "settles" over time, sometimes picking up 2-3C for a ~100W CPU over a week or so. However, is it 100% efficient by the time it's finished settling? A better question perhaps is "is the silver micronised down to the point of individual molecules?". I still believe Bill's value of ~0.08-0.10C/W for the thermal interface layer. Yes, Bill's thermal probe was about 1mm below the surface, but the heat flows through the copper in a fairly linear gradient when talking about distances this small, and the graph I saw was plotting the gradients either side of the measurement points and extrapolating from there. There were some small anomalies, hence the "uncertainty", but to date it is the best evidence I've seen to quantify the size of the thermal barrier, unless someone has some better real testing to show. |
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#71 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
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It was agreed privately as a "possible value" until we knew more. Then was used . FI Probe 2mm below surface (check orig http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...threadid=67401 |
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#72 | |
Cooling Savant
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It was agreed privately as a "possible value" until we knew more. Then was used . FI Probe 2mm below surface (check orig http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...threadid=67401 |
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#73 |
Thermophile
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Seemed to me to be a decent value to be working with, agreed though, until we know more.
I guess it's a case of what's better? 1) No information at all? 2) False (marketing) information? 3) Some rudimentary testing information? 4) Some decently obtained testing information until disproven? If we're going to apply any form of theory as to what to expect from direct-die, it would seem to me that people would want to have at least a vague idea of what they're working with/against, rather than no idea at all? |
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#74 | |
Cooling Savant
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But unreferenced speculation or possibly misinformation - No |
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#75 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I guess I place a little more faith in Bill's testing and results than to call them mere "speculation" or "possible misinformation". I personally put it into the category of a "working hypothesis until disproven". |
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