Another "New guy to watercooling" thread... But I have done my homework... I think.

[BillA]

on each curve, each tic represents the progression 0.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, and 3.0 gpm
so the RBX flow rate at 0.5m head loss is 1.5gpm

key ? on the graph ?
well hell yes, just read the name of the wb

Cathar, these guys need help

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by unregistered

on each curve, each tic represents the progression 0.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, and 3.0 gpm
so the RBX flow rate at 0.5m head loss is 1.5gpm

ahh - suddenly all is clear!... so to see the whitewater & cascade at their best we need the rest of it at over 1m....
and the 5003's disadvantage is that it is more restrictive than a 6000 - or even a cascade.....?? but the C/W vs Headloss graph flatters the less restrictive blocks (since the balance of the system would be a higher proportin of the total resistance and so a given pump would give a lower headloss to a less restrictive block...) so then the 5003g is better than i thought -

[AngryAlpaca]

Why can't we stick to the old flow rate versus thermal resistance? Ack, this is probably much more useful, if we could see the full thing. I can't think tonight... It would seem that the RBX is the best, but that's at a much higher flow than the Cascade and WW are at in that chart. Do you still test, Bill, even though you work for Swiftech? Possibly for the reason of comparing? Is that the reason this graph exists?

Edit: Well, obviously you must still test, for this to exist. "Why?" is a much better question.

[pHaestus]

He tests because he is compelled to do so. Bill you should REALLY mess with people and make up an x,y,z graph with C/W, flow rate, and head loss as axes

[TerraMex]

"Why?" is a much better question.

If no tests are made, how do you know where you stand on your design (or others on theirs) ?.

[HammerSandwich]

Bill, I'd suggest a package deal for the MCW5003g and MCP1200.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Bill, I'd suggest a package deal for the MCW5003g and MCP1200.

hey; since neither exist, I'll bet its benchmarked at 110%

I'm quite into the numbers game, but truly we are discussing small increments; for any real user less than the mounting variation or the effects of hose bending on the TIM joint's compression

[SnowRider]

Okay..... heres a diagram I threw together on how I was planning on placing everything. It goes- Pump >> CPU >> GPU >> NB >> Radiator >> Reservoir >> Pump. I've tried to draw everything to their actual size as best I could without getting real technical. The Reservoir in the diagram is the Tank-O-Matic and the Radiator is the Black Ice Xtreme II. I'm not saying that these are for sure the parts I'm buying, I just used their measurements for the diagram.
Alright.... now the big question. If I had those 120mm fans exhausting (pulling air through the radiator which is what I've heard is best), and seeing that the radiator is pretty close to the dvd-rom...... how much do you think this would this hurt my cooling capabilities to leave the dvd-rom there? I think the space would be about a half inch at the most. So, which would be better.... a single 120mm fan sized radiator/heatercore? Or a Dual 120mm fan sized radiator/heatercore with that very small gap on one side? :shrug: :shrug:



This case sure wasn't built for watercooling lol...

[MadHacker]

you might want to consider splitting the loop after the CPU block and putting the Y adapter
after GPU & NB back to the Radiator
my 2¢

[SnowRider]

Can that MCP600 handle that? I was thinking that since the pump has good head pressure but not a very good gallons per minute rating that the other way would be better?? I don't know.... I'm no expert.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by SnowRider

Can that MCP600 handle that? I was thinking that since the pump has good head pressure but not a very good gallons per minute rating that the other way would be better?? I don't know.... I'm no expert.

I'm no expert either..
i was just thinking it would be less restrictive that way...
if i'm wrong I'm shure some one else will pipe up and say so...

[AngryAlpaca]

Parallel is generally bad, and always complicated. The more resistance you have on your system, the more the MCP 600 shines, relative to must pumps (most being everything but the MD-20RZT)

[SnowRider]

Alright, here's another question. I just went to the Hardware labs website (the company that makes the Black Ice radiators) and came up with these performance spec's (I underlined the heat ratings so they'd stand out more)......

Black Ice Micro II -
* 2-pass Dual 80 mm Radiator specifically developed for PC CPU and GPU watercooling
* Double-row high internal volume design
* New superior durability custom formulation high-gloss acrylic paint finish
* Rated for 570 KCal per hour (2261.91 BTU per hour) or 662.91W
* 160 mm x 73.4mm Double-row copper-finned core consisting of flat tubes for maximum heat conductivity
* High-density copper fin configuration for enhanced heat dissipation
* Built-in enhanced depth plenum chamber for increased performance and noise reduction even when using high-speed 80mm fans.
* Self-tapping dual 80mm fan and case mounting holes for ease of installation
* 9.55 mm OD (3/8 inch) pre-angled inlet/outlet barbed hose connectors (Also available in 6.4 mm OD (1/4 inch) barbed hose connectors)
* Compact 193 x 82 x 46 mm (7.6" x 3" x 1.8") dimensions allows it to fit internally in most cases

Black Ice Xtreme -
# 2-pass Double-row Low Pressure Drop Radiator specifically developed for PC watercooling based on the new high-performance Black Ice Xtreme design.
# More than DOUBLE the performance at the compact Black Ice Prime form factor: rated for 790KCal per hour (3134BTU per hour) or 919Wh.
# 120 mm x 32 mm (4.72 inch x 1.25 inch) Double-row Copper core consisting of flat tubes for maximum heat conductivity.
# High-density louvered copper fin configuration for enhanced heat dissipation.
# Built-in plenum chamber for increased performance and noise reduction.
# Self-tapping and case mounting holes for easy installation of 120mm fans.
# Now with12.5 mm (1/2 inch) pre-angled inlet/outlet barbed hose connectors
Compact 153 x 133 x 45mm (5.9 x 5 x 1.69 inch) dimensions allows it to fit inside most mid-tower cases.

Black Ice Xtreme II -
# 2-pass Double-row Low Pressure Drop Radiator specifically developed for PC Watercooling based on the new high-performance Black Ice Xtreme design.
# Xtreme performance: rated for 1580KCal per hour (6270 BTU per hour) or 1838 Wh*.
Double Row 240 mm (9.44 inch) Copper core consisting of flat tubes for maximum heat conductivity.
# High-density louvered copper fin configuration for enhanced heat dissipation.
# Built-in plenum chamber for increased performance and noise reduction.
# Self-tapping and case mounting holes for easy installation of 120mm fans.
# Now with 12.5 mm (1/2 inch) pre-angled inlet/outlet barbed hose connectors.
# Optimal 273.4 x 133 x 45 mm (10.75 x 5.25 x 1.77 inch) dimensions allows it to fit inside most mid-tower cases.

__________End quote_____________

*This is what I'm guessing this radiator's "Wh"(which stands for Watts an hour I'm assuming) rating is. The site doesn't have it for some reason (even though every other rad has this rating) so I just doubled the Black Ice Xtremes rating. I think this is pretty accurate considering that the BIX II's "KCal per hour" rating is exactly double that of the BIX's.

So my question is how do these ratings compare to that of a heatercore? Everyone says heatercores are better, but I've never seen actual comparisons between the two.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Parallel is generally bad, and always complicated. The more resistance you have on your system, the more the MCP 600 shines, relative to must pumps (most being everything but the MD-20RZT)

I would think it would be the other way around...
the less restrictive i think would be better..
if the more resistance was better...
then i would kink all my hoses untill i had almost no flow... max resistance...

Originally Posted by SnowRider

Alright, here's another question. I just went to the Hardware labs website (the company that makes the Black Ice radiators) and came up with these performance spec's (I underlined the heat ratings so they'd stand out more)......

So my question is how do these ratings compare to that of a heatercore? Everyone says heatercores are better, but I've never seen actual comparisons between the two.

well I went for BIX rev2 and BIXmicro2 knowing full well that they wern't as eficient as a heater core.
the only reason i went with that instead is due to size...
i was unable to find a heatercore that would fit that size.
complete listing of heatercores listed here

if in this list you can find one that meets your requirements go with that instead.
I have a mini tower, 15" tall and in it i have the 2 above listed heatercores as well as 2x120mm fans in a push pull effect on the BIX and 4x80mm fans on the BIXmicro2 and add 2x1" for the shrowds for each BIX, leaves almost no space. but i got it all to fit
but if it wasn't for the size I would have gone with a heatercore. which is what i'm am planning to do with my server(Full height case).

[Groth]

Those radiator dissipation rating are a triumph of marketing. 1838 watts? With what, 80 C water and 90 dB 400 cfm fan? Their numbers are meaningless without knowing the test conditions.

And why the hell do they alway try to tack something to the end of watts? Power isn't watt-hours or watts per hour, it's just plain watts. Damn, I'd like to kick a marketor in the balls right now.

[MadHacker]

Originally Posted by Groth

Those radiator dissipation rating are a triumph of marketing. 1838 watts? With what, 80 C water and 90 dB 400 cfm fan? Their numbers are meaningless without knowing the test conditions.

And why the hell do they alway try to tack something to the end of watts? Power isn't watt-hours or watts per hour, it's just plain watts. Damn, I'd like to kick a marketor in the balls right now.

but that is what marketing is all about...
if you can take a number.. like watts and then multiply by 3600 to give watt/hours then they have a bigger number to make their claims with...

unless they make a statment that you can actualy prove that is wrong...
then they can be sued... and if they can't be sued.. then they will make that statment..
hell... a marketer will tell you that the sky would be more blue if you bought their product if they could get away with it.

[pdf27]

Thing is, W/h is a rate of change of heat dissipation, while Wh is a total energy dissipated in an (unspecified) time. Hence, these are meaningless...

[AntiBling]

To plumb it in parallel or series is quite easy to decide. Just buy some cheap vinyl tubing and try it both ways, see which way its flowing faster through the CPU block. Give it the old bucket test.

Too bad about the Black Ice radiators. Are you sure there isnt a core or two to fit? BIX seem like kind of a rip off to me.

[bobkoure]

Hmmm...
They're changed their site. They used to state measurement conditions on every page that had ratings for their radiators.
The one for the BlackIcePro (120mm but thinner than the BIX)
still does *100 CFM, .28inH2O fans, 6 l/min flow rate. The missing ones are (IMHO) a simple oversight - stuff gets lost nearly every time a web site gets re-designed.
I've been using the BIPs because they seem to do a decent job if you're watercooling for low-noise.
Without getting into the inaccuracies of stating CPU diode temps) I just swapped a BIP out for a chevette core + criticool shroud in my "main" PC.
Reported temps (adjusting for ambient, which have gone from 20C to 24C -not that my wall thermometer's particularly accurate either) are 1C cooler - which means they are essentially the same.
Bear in mind that I'm "off the bottom of the chart" in terms of airflow and air pressure (single panaflo on rad undervolted to 5V).

[AngryAlpaca]

Originally Posted by myself, you idiot

relative to must pumps

That is NOT what marketing is about. Bill gives out real numbers, and gives us the test conditions. However, most people don't give a **** about the test conditions, they just see the 100W rating he gives to the Micro, and think, "Hey, that's good enough!" "Marketing," like that of HELabs, is the worst part about watercooling.