How much pump is enough? How much is too much? - Page 4

|kbn| · 11-21-2004, 07:30 AM

So it is..
With more than one company rebranding them, maybe it should be called by the manufactuers name?
Is there any difference atall between the liang/swiftech and dangerden rebranded pumps?

bobkoure · 11-21-2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |kbn|

so I dont see why anyone would recommend an ehiem over the hydor...

Reliability? Quiet? My experience with the 1046, 1048, and HPPS is that they are very reliable.

|kbn| · 11-21-2004, 10:12 AM

Are the hydors not also just as quiet? and just as reliable? Ive never used one...

Also I think eheim 1250's should not be used for pc watercooling, they are just too big, where the graphs show little difference in performance. A 1048 should be used instead..

bobkoure · 11-21-2004, 06:53 PM

I've never used a 1250. I do have 10 or 12 w/c systems out there (mostly 1046) that AFAIK are run 24x7 (about half without pump relays - pump just stays on). They're built for friends, and I've been building 'em for four years or so. No pump failures.
I know that's nothing next to the experience someone like BillA has (hundreds or thousands of pumps and when they're broken - at least under warranty - they go back to him) but my very small data sample says that the 1046 and 1048 are very reliable.
They're also quite quiet. I do mount them on foam pads, make sure they're not touching any panels, and use soft silicone hosing.

As a side issue, I particularly like the combination unit any of these make with the Innovatek "AGB-O-Matic" reservoir. You basically do need a reservoir if you are using silicone tubing as it loses water faster than vinyl.

MaxxxRacer · 11-22-2004, 03:46 AM

Cathar, thanks for this amazingly great info. I am using it in my pump reccomendations article over at XS. Here is a link. Please check it out when you get a chance and let me know what you think. I sited and gave you some thanks in the thread for your info and linked to this article that you made.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...353#post532353

nimrod_o · 11-22-2004, 06:48 AM

Well a pump that answers most of the requists given on the first page of this thread:
Huge head, flow between 10-14 LPM, DC pump. - By Panworld.
Would this be a good solution?

First graph from the right.

bobkoure · 11-22-2004, 07:30 AM

I don't think there's a way to answer your question from the data here - unless there's a way to tell from pump curves how much heat a pump will put into water(...?)

The idea is that every pump puts some heat into the water - and that it varies by pump and loop resistance (although it doesn't necessarily go up with resistance).
Many water blocks become more efficient as they have water pushed through them at higher head. No matter how efficient, all water blocks start out with a "base" temperature - which is coolant temp.
Your radiator/fan setup has some limit beyond which coolant temperatures rise.
So... Cathar's point was that there's a "point of diminishing returns" where pump heat has warmed the coolant more than any gain in waterblock efficiency can compensate for.

The curves you've posted show pressure/volume, which, I think, might be used to predict waterblock efficiency. But you'd also need pump heat figures to get the rest of the equation.
AFAIK the only real way to get pump heat figures is to run the pump in an insulated loop and measure heat rise, but it's not going to be more than the power you're putting into the pump - but I don't see any figures for amps or wattage (I might be missing it, of course). The "external 4-20mA" seems to refer to input from an external control circuit (which is way cool but not the pump wattage figure).

nimrod_o · 11-22-2004, 07:58 AM

Can you estimate the amount of heat put into the water from the maximal amount of watts the pump draws?
For example the Panworld 40PX (the equivelent to an 20RLT in AC configuration) consumes 45 watts of power. - and therefore cannot put more than that into the water?
I will try to find out what DC volts are required for the pump above, and watt consumption, if this helps.

bobkoure · 11-22-2004, 08:12 AM

Cool! - You don't happen to own one of these, do you? Measuring pump heat is pretty straightforward (you just need a bucket, hoses, thermometer and (optionally) a resistance, like a water block...)

nimrod_o · 11-23-2004, 12:34 AM

O.k. here is some more information and it definetly looks good:

Panworld 50PXZD - DC Brushless:
Comes with 12 volts or 24 your choice
Input watts = 40 Output=29
This one definetly looks to be the best one.

Panworld 50PXZ - AC Pump.
Input watts=65 Output=45

And there is also another new pump the PI-15ZD DC pump:
Max Head = 9 meters Max Flow=9 LPM
Input watts=45 Output=20

Well as my funds and prices in Israel don't really do well with each other...i might have to take the AC version....you can see its PQ above ....it's the dotted line. It puts out 20 watts into the water....would this pump be any good?

bobkoure · 11-23-2004, 06:32 AM

OK, so now hopefully one of the pump experts will chime in.
In the meanwhile, looking at the charts on the first page of this thread, the 50 performance appears to be between the Iwaki 15 and 20Z (closer to the 20) and heat put into the water looks to be about the same situation, so maybe use the graphs there to figure if this pump makes sense given the heat you're moving and your cooling capacity (how big a rad and how much air you push through it).

psychofunk · 11-23-2004, 12:13 PM

.......opps nevermind I thought the 15pz model numbers listed above were the spec on the 12v 50PX

Chew_Toy · 11-23-2004, 12:33 PM

We were also talking about the 50PX Here.

Brum Man · 11-23-2004, 01:23 PM

when you said that the Eheim 1048/1250 was the good silent choice for the dual radiators how do you think it would fair in a setup with a thermochill 120.3? Would it still be fairly effective and a good silent choice? When you said that the Swiftech MPC600/AquaXtreme 50Z would be the 2nd choice for larger Rad setups would you consider a 120.3 a 'large' rad of were you talking more about large passive Rads or dual rad setups?

Do you think I would still be ok getting an eheim 1250/1048 or would I be a lot better off trying to source a MCP600/AquaXtreme 50Z instead?

Oh and i'll be cooling both my CPU and GPU so will the added resistance in the loop mean either of them would become the out right winner?

Cheers

nimrod_o · 11-23-2004, 04:13 PM

Yes Chew_Toy i saw it....it looks very similar....
But i am still interested in the following one as well:

And there is also another new pump the PI-15ZD DC pump:
Max Head = 9 meters Max Flow=9 LPM
Input watts=45 Output=20
and does 5LPM at 5 Meter head.

I would like to hear comments about this last pump.
it looks as if it would be equivelent to 3 MCP 600?

Stiffler · 11-25-2004, 12:47 PM

You guys should look at this pump:
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=DP1117

20W, 385GPH, 9FT Max head. I use this pump now and it works GREAT.

DDogg · 11-28-2004, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiffler

You guys should look at this pump:
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=DP1117

20W, 385GPH, 9FT Max head. I use this pump now and it works GREAT.

Some more specs on these pumps. http://www.dolphinpumps.com/pond___t...ies_models.htm

Stiffler, noise level, vibration ?

Bugsmasher · 11-29-2004, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimrod_o

O.k. here is some more information and it definetly looks good:

Panworld 50PXZ - AC Pump.
Input watts=65 Output=45

Just wondering where ya found these numbers Nim. I was just talking to NPI which distributes the Panworlds (they have em in stock) and was given an Input value of 55 watts and an Output of 20 watts which would keep the AC variant within the preferred wattage ratings for pumps. If its indeed 65/45 then it falls well outside.

***EDIT***

Found it!
I think those Input/Output values you were using were for their higher flow pumps- the 50PX-N and 50PX-X-N which both have 65/45 values. The 50PX-Z does indeed have a 55/20.

The 50PX-Z has the following values -
@2500rpm 4.8m head/9.5lpm
@3000rpm 6.7m head/11lpm

It *sounds* like a great pump. Right on par with the Iwaki 20Z series. The downside is that its one-at-a-time costs are higher than the Iwaki 20Z with the American motors by about $12. The specs are almost mirror images so there is very little to differentiate between the two pumps. It does cost less than the Japanese motored Iwaki 20Z however which does sound nice. Lastly they are supposedly slightly more quiet than the Iwakis. I dont personally know so thats purely what I have read/been told by people with a slightly biased viewpoint (Panworld distributors/salespersons).

Lastly there is a definite upside in that these pumps are in stock and readily availabe from www.npipump.com

nimrod_o · 11-29-2004, 09:46 AM

Check this:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10932
These are better pumps than the 50PXZ.

As for Now the Panworld 50PXZD it crosses the graph at 7.1-7.5 LPM
with Input=40 watts Output=29 watts
would be less good than a MD 20RZ.

Bugsmasher · 11-29-2004, 09:54 AM

Yeah, those are definitely the most interesting.

The only down side is the price tag- $180 list.

Brandon_Tyler · 11-29-2004, 10:43 AM

Cathar,

Would you kindly add some data to reflect how the Hydor L20, L30, L40 will work up in your lil schematic for 2 blocks and dual heater cores with a 2X120 config???

-Brandon

lolito_fr · 11-29-2004, 11:37 AM

In terms of Pressure/Flow:
Hydor L20 ~ Eheim 1048
Hydor L30 ~ Eheim 1250
Don't think there will be significant difference in heat output either
(IIRC Cathar doesn't own any Hydor pumps...)

Bugsmasher · 11-29-2004, 12:27 PM

Nim-

Just for info, the 10PI pumps are available for right at $140 from a California distributor by the name of James Wylbee Company. Its the 24VDC version which is a bit smaller than the AC version.

Bob Wylbee gave me some MTBF numbers that didnt quite make sense so I am waiting for a callback with the 'official' Panworld numbers on this.

Stiffler · 11-29-2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDogg

Some more specs on these pumps. http://www.dolphinpumps.com/pond___t...ies_models.htm

Stiffler, noise level, vibration ?

Noise level is almost nill. I have the pump in an external enclosure, and without my 2 120s turned on, I can barely hear the pump. It does have a little bit of vibration. I can feel the box vibrating slightly, but not enough that it vibrates anything else. The 2 120s that I use totally dwarf the pump in noise and vibration...

BillA · 11-29-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugsmasher

Nim-

Just for info, the 10PI pumps are available for right at $140 from a California distributor by the name of James Wylbee Company. Its the 24VDC version which is a bit smaller than the AC version.

Bob Wylbee gave me some MTBF numbers that didnt quite make sense so I am waiting for a callback with the 'official' Panworld numbers on this.

Panworld has no MTBF #s, part of why Swiftech sells Laing pumps now

11-21-2004, 07:30 AM	#76
\|kbn\| Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: W. Sussex, UK Posts: 329	So it is.. With more than one company rebranding them, maybe it should be called by the manufactuers name? Is there any difference atall between the liang/swiftech and dangerden rebranded pumps? __________________ Waterblocks Last edited by \|kbn\|; 11-21-2004 at 07:37 AM.

11-21-2004, 10:12 AM	#78
\|kbn\| Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: W. Sussex, UK Posts: 329	Are the hydors not also just as quiet? and just as reliable? Ive never used one... Also I think eheim 1250's should not be used for pc watercooling, they are just too big, where the graphs show little difference in performance. A 1048 should be used instead.. __________________ Waterblocks

11-22-2004, 03:46 AM	#80
MaxxxRacer Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Posts: 310	Cathar, thanks for this amazingly great info. I am using it in my pump reccomendations article over at XS. Here is a link. Please check it out when you get a chance and let me know what you think. I sited and gave you some thanks in the thread for your info and linked to this article that you made. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...353#post532353 __________________ Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler.

11-22-2004, 06:48 AM	#81
nimrod_o Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Israel Posts: 24	Well a pump that answers most of the requists given on the first page of this thread: Huge head, flow between 10-14 LPM, DC pump. - By Panworld. Would this be a good solution? First graph from the right. Last edited by nimrod_o; 11-22-2004 at 06:59 AM.

11-23-2004, 01:23 PM	#89
Brum Man Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Leicestershire, UK Posts: 10	when you said that the Eheim 1048/1250 was the good silent choice for the dual radiators how do you think it would fair in a setup with a thermochill 120.3? Would it still be fairly effective and a good silent choice? When you said that the Swiftech MPC600/AquaXtreme 50Z would be the 2nd choice for larger Rad setups would you consider a 120.3 a 'large' rad of were you talking more about large passive Rads or dual rad setups? Do you think I would still be ok getting an eheim 1250/1048 or would I be a lot better off trying to source a MCP600/AquaXtreme 50Z instead? Oh and i'll be cooling both my CPU and GPU so will the added resistance in the loop mean either of them would become the out right winner? Cheers Last edited by Brum Man; 11-23-2004 at 04:09 PM.

11-21-2004, 06:53 PM	#79
bobkoure Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA - Boston area Posts: 798	I've never used a 1250. I do have 10 or 12 w/c systems out there (mostly 1046) that AFAIK are run 24x7 (about half without pump relays - pump just stays on). They're built for friends, and I've been building 'em for four years or so. No pump failures. I know that's nothing next to the experience someone like BillA has (hundreds or thousands of pumps and when they're broken - at least under warranty - they go back to him) but my very small data sample says that the 1046 and 1048 are very reliable. They're also quite quiet. I do mount them on foam pads, make sure they're not touching any panels, and use soft silicone hosing. As a side issue, I particularly like the combination unit any of these make with the Innovatek "AGB-O-Matic" reservoir. You basically do need a reservoir if you are using silicone tubing as it loses water faster than vinyl.

11-22-2004, 07:30 AM	#82
bobkoure Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA - Boston area Posts: 798	I don't think there's a way to answer your question from the data here - unless there's a way to tell from pump curves how much heat a pump will put into water(...?) The idea is that every pump puts some heat into the water - and that it varies by pump and loop resistance (although it doesn't necessarily go up with resistance). Many water blocks become more efficient as they have water pushed through them at higher head. No matter how efficient, all water blocks start out with a "base" temperature - which is coolant temp. Your radiator/fan setup has some limit beyond which coolant temperatures rise. So... Cathar's point was that there's a "point of diminishing returns" where pump heat has warmed the coolant more than any gain in waterblock efficiency can compensate for. The curves you've posted show pressure/volume, which, I think, might be used to predict waterblock efficiency. But you'd also need pump heat figures to get the rest of the equation. AFAIK the only real way to get pump heat figures is to run the pump in an insulated loop and measure heat rise, but it's not going to be more than the power you're putting into the pump - but I don't see any figures for amps or wattage (I might be missing it, of course). The "external 4-20mA" seems to refer to input from an external control circuit (which is way cool but not the pump wattage figure).

11-22-2004, 07:58 AM	#83
nimrod_o Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Israel Posts: 24	Can you estimate the amount of heat put into the water from the maximal amount of watts the pump draws? For example the Panworld 40PX (the equivelent to an 20RLT in AC configuration) consumes 45 watts of power. - and therefore cannot put more than that into the water? I will try to find out what DC volts are required for the pump above, and watt consumption, if this helps.

11-22-2004, 08:12 AM	#84
bobkoure Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA - Boston area Posts: 798	Cool! - You don't happen to own one of these, do you? Measuring pump heat is pretty straightforward (you just need a bucket, hoses, thermometer and (optionally) a resistance, like a water block...)

11-23-2004, 12:34 AM	#85
nimrod_o Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Israel Posts: 24	O.k. here is some more information and it definetly looks good: Panworld 50PXZD - DC Brushless: Comes with 12 volts or 24 your choice Input watts = 40 Output=29 This one definetly looks to be the best one. Panworld 50PXZ - AC Pump. Input watts=65 Output=45 And there is also another new pump the PI-15ZD DC pump: Max Head = 9 meters Max Flow=9 LPM Input watts=45 Output=20 Well as my funds and prices in Israel don't really do well with each other...i might have to take the AC version....you can see its PQ above ....it's the dotted line. It puts out 20 watts into the water....would this pump be any good?

11-23-2004, 06:32 AM	#86
bobkoure Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA - Boston area Posts: 798	OK, so now hopefully one of the pump experts will chime in. In the meanwhile, looking at the charts on the first page of this thread, the 50 performance appears to be between the Iwaki 15 and 20Z (closer to the 20) and heat put into the water looks to be about the same situation, so maybe use the graphs there to figure if this pump makes sense given the heat you're moving and your cooling capacity (how big a rad and how much air you push through it).

11-23-2004, 12:13 PM	#87
psychofunk Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 365	.......opps nevermind I thought the 15pz model numbers listed above were the spec on the 12v 50PX

11-23-2004, 12:33 PM	#88
Chew_Toy Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 120	We were also talking about the 50PX Here.

11-23-2004, 04:13 PM	#90
nimrod_o Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Israel Posts: 24	Yes Chew_Toy i saw it....it looks very similar.... But i am still interested in the following one as well: And there is also another new pump the PI-15ZD DC pump: Max Head = 9 meters Max Flow=9 LPM Input watts=45 Output=20 and does 5LPM at 5 Meter head. I would like to hear comments about this last pump. it looks as if it would be equivelent to 3 MCP 600?

11-25-2004, 12:47 PM	#91
Stiffler Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Monmouth, OR Posts: 65	You guys should look at this pump: http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=DP1117 20W, 385GPH, 9FT Max head. I use this pump now and it works GREAT.

11-29-2004, 09:46 AM	#94
nimrod_o Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Israel Posts: 24	Check this: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10932 These are better pumps than the 50PXZ. As for Now the Panworld 50PXZD it crosses the graph at 7.1-7.5 LPM with Input=40 watts Output=29 watts would be less good than a MD 20RZ.

11-29-2004, 09:54 AM	#95
Bugsmasher Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 43	Yeah, those are definitely the most interesting. The only down side is the price tag- $180 list.

11-29-2004, 10:43 AM	#96
Brandon_Tyler Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: D-FW, Texas Posts: 26	Cathar, Would you kindly add some data to reflect how the Hydor L20, L30, L40 will work up in your lil schematic for 2 blocks and dual heater cores with a 2X120 config??? -Brandon

11-29-2004, 11:37 AM	#97
lolito_fr Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: France Posts: 291	In terms of Pressure/Flow: Hydor L20 ~ Eheim 1048 Hydor L30 ~ Eheim 1250 Don't think there will be significant difference in heat output either (IIRC Cathar doesn't own any Hydor pumps...)

11-29-2004, 12:27 PM	#98
Bugsmasher Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 43	Nim- Just for info, the 10PI pumps are available for right at $140 from a California distributor by the name of James Wylbee Company. Its the 24VDC version which is a bit smaller than the AC version. Bob Wylbee gave me some MTBF numbers that didnt quite make sense so I am waiting for a callback with the 'official' Panworld numbers on this.

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