How much would you spend, on test your waterblock?

[bigben2k]

...but the poll is speifically for people who make their own waterblocks. If you can't afford the testing, then block making is probably out too.

[Pears0]

i can afford to make the cooling systems cos i have access to uni tools etc, so i only have to pay for the ram materials, so cost are only like £40 for a custom case and water cooling system!

[WAJ_UK]

Pears0, you could always do a project on computer cooling and get the university to pay for it. That's what I'm doing. They probably already have most of the testing equipment there. I've easily spent over £200 of university money so far. In fact I should be testing now but I'm waiting for a delivery of a few connectors which I should have received yesterday

[killernoodle]

I may end up producing a CPU waterblock to compliment the set I will be making for my NB and GPU. The design will be similar (if I end up making it) in that I will use a skivved 1U cooler as the base and then use a Acetol top.

I have a whitewater as my current CPU block, but in the near future I may end up peltier cooling and that may not go over well. I want to build this block for pelt cooling, but will end up using it as a regular waterblock for a short period.

Would it be possible to test this block against my current system and get accurate "real world" results? I mean, I dont want to deal with flow rates, C/W, and other variables due to the fact that I do not have the equipment to test them. All I want is an end result of a load temp and idle temp compared to ambient temp vs what I am getting with the WW.

After all, isnt the end result what we are looking for in the first place? We want to see how much cooler we can go from a set standard. The WW performs well, but does my block perform better kinda thing.

I dont know if I'm making any sense.

[buzzby]

My cost of testing would be zero. I link mine up to the garden hose to test the block against mains pressure then set it up and see what i get. As long as it works and the temps are ok i dont mind

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by buzzby

My cost of testing would be zero. I link mine up to the garden hose to test the block against mains pressure then set it up and see what i get. As long as it works and the temps are ok i dont mind

Do you expect to get the same water temp, each time?

Do you know that your water pressure changes, throughout the day? Do you know the actual flow rate that you'll be able to get, using a typical pump?

[Etacovda]

I believe he was, what its called, 'taking the piss'.

I for one, would be willing to spend a few dollars getting something tested - sub 100 US would be nice, but I think its unlikely, with the amount of time it takes.

[BillA]

words are cheap and whiskey costs money
it is the nature of the DIY activity to not 'waste' money, what will the info be good for ?

remember that TMT offered wb testing to DIYers for $90, 50% subsidized
-> not ONE customer !

think on it Ben, ain't no business model to be following
- particularly with the pending automation and resultant substantial increase in accuracy

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by unregistered

remember that TMT offered wb testing to DIYers for $90, 50% subsidized
-> not ONE customer !

Who wants to pay more for testing than the block took to make? In all reality there are very few people that actually make a block. Not suprised you had no takers. I am suprised/disapointed that pH hasn't had more DIY blocks sent his way being he is doing it for free. I was hoping to have some competition but it doesn't look as if anyone is interested. :shrug: My motivation has all but disapeared to make anymore blocks.

[Jag]

Maybe another factor is that not everyone is willing to see the poor results of their waterblocks- everyone wants to have a winning horse.
Another thing is the design ripp off, especially if you post the results publicly.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Jag

Maybe another factor is that not everyone is willing to see the poor results of their waterblocks- everyone wants to have a winning horse.
Another thing is the design ripp off, especially if you post the results publicly.

I don't care if the design is ripped of if it is a one-off DIY block. Go point about the performance issue though. Lot easier to hype it up in forums than to get it properly tested I guess.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Jag

Maybe another factor is that not everyone is willing to see the poor results of their waterblocks- everyone wants to have a winning horse.
Another thing is the design ripp off, especially if you post the results publicly.

Most DIY'ers are making blocks for the sheer satisfaction that they made it themselves using their own hands/tools, and that's what makes the block special to them. I would imagine that most accept that what they built may not be the top-dog, and they certainly don't need to spend money on stating the obvious. The bulk of the designs possible with home tools have already been tested, and it's fairly clear that while some perform very admirably (cross-drilled, #rotor or slit-channel for examples), most of the DIY's can see that they're not leaping to the head of the pack and they're just making a block for themselves.

Again, what motivation is there for them to pay money to have it tested? Not unsurprised that there were very few takers for Bill. If the testing were for free, then yeah, they'd probably send the blocks in, but then that's not a business model for the tester to be making money on now is it?

One of the basic rules of business is that you can only make money in a market where people are prepared to spend money. The very concept of the DIY block is that these people weren't even prepared to spend the money to buy a commercially made block.

[Jag]

Cathar even for free, few people would submit (I guess) their blocks.
I'm not referring to the DIY'ers that just want to mill a copper block, but others (like you for instance!) with basic tools or not, that feel that the design they have is good, and can benefit from improvements, and to get that you need testing.

Of course you can't value testing if you don't value your work.

[SysCrusher]

Honestly, I'd say what ever pHaestus decided on. I see alot of 1-25? That's nothing but I guess if you had enough of them he could make a little cash to upgrade his setup for better testing. I picked 50 -75. 100 would be tops I think. I'd think about it as a fund raiser type of thing to help him out.

Commercial customers? I'd rape them. Since your doing a review and stating their products on a fair/balanced review. It's advertizing for them I would think. Advertizing cost bucks.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Jag

Cathar even for free, few people would submit (I guess) their blocks.
I'm not referring to the DIY'ers that just want to mill a copper block, but others (like you for instance!) with basic tools or not, that feel that the design they have is good, and can benefit from improvements, and to get that you need testing.

Hmmm, people like me essentially straddle the grey area between DIY and commercial, and there aren't that many people like me about making blocks. I am happy to pay for independent testing services, and in fact it is a vital service to any serious block maker who is focused on the performance aspect but doesn't have the cash to invest in a properly setup test-bed.

Again though. Not enough people like myself about who are both willing to pay for testing, and even then, at a rate of one released block per year, not exactly a high volume source of income either.

The main problem though is the wishes of the manufacturer's and the model that presently exists. If all a manufacturer wants to do is to make money for minimal outlay, then all they would need to do is to send a few blocks to small-time review sites who are only too happy to do a review for free, and only link to the reviews on the website that are favorable.

It's a marketing/business model that has worked for ages now. Why on earth would many manufacturers want to pay to have beneficial ambiguity about their block's performance stripped away?

If the goal of the testbed was to never publish the results, ever, then believe it or not, this would probably get more custom from paying manufacturers. In fact it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that a number of manufacturers had paid Bill for independent testing purposes only, and explicitly requested that there be no publishing of the results.

[BillA]

more than several times
if a mfgr is testing prototypes no pr is appropriate

- but note as well that I was not 'designing' and mfgn wbs either,
just independent testing

Ben, with your present business model (as described);
you may get one mfgr - who will presume access to what you know - but not a single other one
- confidentiality of data and concepts is paramount
so if you are gathering up all these good ideas as you test while being paid by the mfgr, . . . . . .

see the problem ?

[LPorc]

Hmmm... A tough question. $100+ is the only reasonable answer. Testing takes time, equipment, and skill.

I guess the real question is whether or not that level of testing is required. Relative results from a few simple measurements can give some idea of the direction things are moving with variations. Sure, it's not accurate, but it's probably enough for most tinkerers .

Since most DIY is one-off or done for reasons other than prototyping for manufacture, I'd think there is no market despite the large amounts of time and money that DIY-types are willing to put into a project. I really do find it ironic that DIY is characterized by some as motivated by a desire to do it on the cheap . There might be some of that, but it is kind of relative - I can DIY it this way for cheaper than DIY it that way .

I was gonna DIY my own block because I wanted a specific type of design, and there was no good commercial implementation of that design. Now there is, and the price is even decent, so I'll buy. Thank you Swiftech!

I am DIY my heat exchanger. I know heater cores are cheap, and I can certainly afford any commercially available radiator for which I've seen a price. I just don't like the way they look :shrug: . The design decisions and optimization decisions they embody are not quite the same ones I am making. I have no illusions that any of my ideas will out-perform anything else, I merely seek to achieve functional results and have something unique. The challenge lies in figuring out how to implement with the tooling and materials I have available or am willing to purchase! If someone were to come out with a product that fit my vision, I'd have to compare the price of DIY with the price of their product, and generally economies of scale will win over cost of tooling up for a one-of-a-kind :shrug: .

I guess the only folks who would want detailed or thorough testing are the wanna-be manufacturers or the tinkerer that stumbles onto a design that casual measurements show to be very promising , and the estimated costs of manufacture are low enough he considers becoming a wanna-ba manufacturer !

[Etacovda]

I agree entirely. It would have been far cheaper for me to buy a waterblock, but this way, I can get decent peformance, and I'm learning a lot to boot. Also, this way I have an excuse (relatively, lol) to build up a workshop.

DIY isnt all about price; I think Jaydee mentioned recently he'd spend upwards of 3k on waterblock design etc.

Thats not pocket change. A lot of DIY'ers would like to see their product evaluated.

[LPorc]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

DIY isnt all about price; I think Jaydee mentioned recently he'd spend upwards of 3k on waterblock design etc.

Thats not pocket change. A lot of DIY'ers would like to see their product evaluated.

My Father-in-law has built up quite the little woodworking shop. It's his hobby. A couple of nights a week he'll spend a few hours playing with his tools, turning things on the lathe, gluing things, making pens or chess pieces or whatever. He really got into making pens and whistles, and built boxes to showcase them. When you visit he'll pull out boxes of custom turned pens made from different woods and plastics, and even animal horn. He's invested a lot of money in his hobby, and doesn't think twice about spending more unless it gets into the thousands. From what I've seen of Jaydee's posts and pics, I think he's got a similar outlook on it as machining has become a hobby for him.

I suppose that's the difference. I can work woods, metals, and plastics, solder and weld, build circuits and the like, but none of that is my hobby. They're just things I know how to do. I don't use tools often, they're not my hobby, so I don't have much of a kit or shop. I fabricate when I need to for some other purpose, not for the simple pleasure of doing so, although I have noticed as I get older I enjoy it more. I see how it could become a hobby, and how at some point a desire for objective measurement could creep up if you've been at building a particular class of object though successive refinements. I just don't see most DIYers hitting that point. Really, how many waterblocks do you need, and how many variations before you get one that performs adequately?

Compare it to case modding - there are far more people modifying their cases than there are people entering case mods into contests or even posting job logs of their mods. Most case mods are pretty ho-hum, add a window here, a blow-hole there, a face plate here, a cold cathode there. To the top of the case-modding pyramid such things are hardly worthy of notice. It's the difference between the service center of the local auto dealer (commercial) and Monster Garage (folk like Jaydee), but I suppose more like Junkyard Wars - what can we put together that works, and we can scrounge up the parts. And waterblocks, while useful, just aren't as sexy as fire boats or catapults or dragsters, and even if they were, it's hard to imagine two groups of four getting excited about building competing water blocks the underperform commercial blocks, especially if they have to pay for the testing to determine the winner.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

DIY isnt all about price; I think Jaydee mentioned recently he'd spend upwards of 3k on waterblock design etc.

That was just in tooling and materials. I spent who knows how many hours designing and constucting. Probably time and money better spent on other things.

[Etacovda]

lol, but the question is in the entertainment; if you didnt enjoy it, you wouldnt do it

If pHaetus would test my block, I'd be very happy. But, I havent asked, as I dont expect it.

You've got competition here Jaydee... hopefully it will inspire you to make a new block eh

I think I've spent around 1k NZD on it; about 600US...

[pHaestus]

I test blocks for free currently because I don't feel like my test methods justify the cost of my time. I am at the moment getting better equipment running and much more automation of testing. At that point perhaps I will start charging but really I would prefer to keep it as it is. Procooling readers donated the bulk of the $$ for test equipment and I'd prefer to just keep things out in the open for everyone to learn from and enjoy. For instance I've privately tested Cathar's new waterblock but on the condition that test results will become public when the product is released. That's a win-win for the readers, the site, and Cathar because you all get a review posted on release date of the wb, Procooling gets the world premiere scoop on what is sure to be a popular topic, and he gets some idea of how the block performs relative to the competition on a fairly repeatable test system.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

lol, but the question is in the entertainment; if you didnt enjoy it, you wouldnt do it

If pHaetus would test my block, I'd be very happy. But, I havent asked, as I dont expect it.

You've got competition here Jaydee... hopefully it will inspire you to make a new block eh

I think I've spent around 1k NZD on it; about 600US...

Good. I already got a block completed that will beat my other blocks. Just waiting for someone to beat mine out. $600? Damn, hope it works well. I spent about $10 on the Lumpy Channel Block.

[Stang_Man]

to test? or to make your first?

well,

setup = 45/hr. give me about 1/2 hour to setup the tools, and then maybe another hour (or more, depending on the complexity of the waterblock) to program the machine.

turning costs depends on the material, alluminum is free-cutting, copper is also free-cutting,

and then you have cost of materials, alluminum as well as copper is expensive nowdays.

1 go at a waterblock on one of my machines will cost an EASY 100-200 bucks.

EDIT:

Nevermind, that's just for reference above. For ACTUAL testing, I would spend at least 100 bucks no doubt, on the best waterblock out there currently, and a load simulator at least. Not to mention, computer parts to test it out on.

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Good. I already got a block completed that will beat my other blocks. Just waiting for someone to beat mine out. $600? Damn, hope it works well. I spent about $10 on the Lumpy Channel Block.

Haha, yeah, thats tools, testing gear, gas money, pumps, the lot really... (a couple of pumps, motherboard, temp sensors, block prototypes, etc etc etc... you know what its like )

All in the aid of testing this block, but the block material is worth maybe 10USD including the mounting set and barbs I'm just looking at hitting high end performance then testing a few variables really. As is MY testing (relative, not very good i know) my block is within a degree of the best ones. But, I could be off by a mile. Unless i had a few blocks that are on pH's chart (I only had one) then my results are about as strong as a house of cards in a hurricane.

It's an addiction for sure; when some more money comes in, I'm going to invest in a CF633 and DOW sensors, so I can be a bit more certain. Like all good addictions, they cost either lots of money, lots of time, or both

I'm sitting here centre punching out my new design as we speak, lol.