Direct Die Cooling Project. - Page 4

Les · 08-27-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I guess I place a little more faith in Bill's testing and results than to call them mere "speculation" or "possible misinformation". I personally put it into the category of a "working hypothesis until disproven".

Bill Adams's: testing is solid .
It is your interpretation with which I disagrree

Cathar · 08-27-2003, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Les
Bill Adams's: testing is solid .
It is your interpretation with which I disagrree

Please explain.

If the testing is solid, then any hypothesis drawn from that testing is potentially solid as well. Yes, any hypothesis can potentially be incorrect, but only until proven to be so. I have yet to see any information that is in stark contrast to the hypothesis, other than what can only be categorised as true speculation based upon ephemeral statements like "AS3 has a thermal condutivity of ~9W/mK, therefore the thermal juction must have a C/W of XX for a 100mm^2 heat die".

I'm not stating that it's fact, I'm stating that it's a working hypothesis. You seem to have a serious objection with me saying that, but have given no real reason as to why it would be otherwise. Les, you were part of the discussions that led to the proposed values too, so are you saying that you have little faith in your conclusions drawn upon the results of "solid testing"?

I'm sorry, but I'm having a little bit of trouble in understanding why you're pursuing this line of reasoning. If you have seen information that rejects the hypothesis then I'll be happy to reconsider my point of view.

If we are not allowed to have some leeway in putting forward some sort of values based on experimental evidence, then what do you propose as an alternative, or at the very least, what do you propose we do with the results of Bill's "solid testing"? Ignore them?

Les · 08-27-2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
Please explain.

To my knowledge the value of 0.1c/w for thr TIM joint was proposed by myself..
The analysis is very shaky. - in particular it considers a uniform heat flux and h~ 10.,000 over the wb base .
The whole subject needs a new analysis.

Althornin · 08-27-2003, 09:48 PM

this research paper (dealing with carbon black as a new TIM) might offer some insight.
here

Cathar · 08-27-2003, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Althornin
this research paper (dealing with carbon black as a new TIM) might offer some insight.
here

Of interest in that paper is the thermal conductivity measured.

For the carbon black for a ~100mm^2 area a value of ~0.033 C/W is proposed, and for a soldered joint a value of ~0.050 C/W is proposed.

Hard to say how that compares with goops like ShinEtsu, Arctic Silver or Cooling Flow as no commercial pastes were included in the testing.

Is AS3 worse than the carbon black mixture? I guess one would presume so, but where does it fit in? One would imagine that a micronised silver mixture would be substantially better than the graphite mixture which was measured at around 0.22C/W for a ~100mm^2 heat die.

Basically we need more testing on this.

freeloadingbum · 08-27-2003, 11:16 PM

With regards to how much the temp is increased due to the T.I.M. joint, wouldn't simply adding a second T.I.M. joint give you a fairly good idea?

If you were to use a thin piece of copper (.030") about the same size as the die in the middle of the block and cpu (AS3 on both sides) , the increase in temp should be a bit more than the first T.I.M. joint (due to the added resistance of the copper shim).

bigben2k · 08-28-2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeloadingbum
With regards to how much the temp is increased due to the T.I.M. joint, wouldn't simply adding a second T.I.M. joint give you a fairly good idea?

If you were to use a thin piece of copper (.030") about the same size as the die in the middle of the block and cpu (AS3 on both sides) , the increase in temp should be a bit more than the first T.I.M. joint (due to the added resistance of the copper shim).

That's not a bad idea.

Knowing the nature of the copper, and it's thermal properties, we'd then have 2 TIM joints. But then, how do you eliminate the TIM joint that you just added? and Once you've taken it out, what are you really left with?

freeloadingbum · 08-28-2003, 12:02 PM

bigben2k, I don't think you quite understand what i mean. If after repeated tests the second joint is shown to add, lets say, 5C to the total temperature, then we can conclude that the first joint is adding a little less than 5C (due to the resistance of the copper spacer) . After that you can throw away the spacer. Without the spacer, the first joint should still be accountable for a little less than 5C of the final resulting temperature (+/- variations in paste applications) .

bigben2k · 08-28-2003, 01:18 PM

Yeah, but how do you know that the second joint is the same as the first?

jaydee · 08-28-2003, 01:53 PM

Tonight I will drop in the Duron 1.3gig with the Lemon Block being it is already setup. I will run it tonight and gather some measurments. Tomorrow I will drop on the Maze 4 and gather some measurments, and then Saturday I will setup the Direct Die block and see what happens. I think it will work pretty good. Those 6 jets powered by the hydroThruster 500GPH pump should give plenty of water pressure on the die to work.

jaydee · 08-28-2003, 08:02 PM

I got the 1200 TBird today. I oput it on right when I got home 20mins ago and it works fine. Took it to 1400mhz with no problem. Going to take it off for now though and drop the Duron on and get going with this project. Lemon block today, Maze 4 tomorrow, and Direct Die Saturday.

jaydee · 08-30-2003, 11:36 AM

Will be updateing this project at my site. Will not be posting much on this site anymore in light of this: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7782

gone_fishin · 08-30-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Will be updateing this project at my site. Will not be posting much on this site anymore in light of this: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7782

Sorry to hear that, hope you reconsider.

bretb · 08-30-2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Will be updateing this project at my site. Will not be posting much on this site anymore in light of this: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7782

Don't let that effect this!

This thread is a good test as well as bringing back the whole TIM issuse which was a great discourse! That is why I read this forum. Let those two personalities deal with each other, besides he did say himself that he posted it in Random Nonsense!

jaydee · 08-30-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bretb
Don't let that effect this! This thread is a good test as well as bringing back the whole TIM issuse which was a great discourse! That is why I read this forum. Let those two personalities deal with each other, besides he did say himself that he posted it in Random Nonsense!

It is much deeper than that. I make a few updates here but I will not bother posting in any other threads as I might get called a newb basher and banned.

People need to lighten up....

Anyway I will drop the Direct Die block on in a few hours.

jaydee · 08-30-2003, 06:30 PM

Block is up and running. It looks great! You can easily see through the entire block. At an angle you can see the die even. So far temps are exellent but equilibrium has yet to set in.

Also note I ended up NOT using the Hydrothruster 500 and opted to use my 170GPH Little Giant pump. Flow is very restricted as there is not much water coming out the outlet but non the less it is working. Note I also tested the other two blocks already with this same setup.

Will report back in a while.

gone_fishin · 08-30-2003, 06:40 PM

Direct water application is interesting. My thoughts would be to utilize the IHS of the P4 and any future processors that use it. Specifically etching the surface of the heatspreader and no contact other than with the heatspreader. Thoughts or comments on this line of approach would be interesting.

jaydee · 08-30-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gone_fishin
Direct water application is interesting. My thoughts would be to utilize the IHS of the P4 and any future processors that use it. Specifically etching the surface of the heatspreader and no contact other than with the heatspreader. Thoughts or comments on this line of approach would be interesting.

I started a thread on that very subject a while ago:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7439

Also an update the Direct Die temps have shot up under load to 2C over the Maze 4. I think it just needs more flow. I will try and get my HydroThruster 500GPH lined out and hook it up.

jaydee · 08-31-2003, 10:58 AM

I added a 200GPH pump in the same line so I got a 200GPH and a 170GPH. That gave a noticeable boost in flow. Over night the temps stabilized at 1C below the Maze 4. Still flow is not good. I am going to try and get the HydroThruster 500GPH setup to run this and see what happens.

jaydee · 08-31-2003, 05:05 PM

I got the HydroThruster setup and running. Pretty disappointed in this direct die cooling so far. I got plenty of flow now and still the temps are pretty close the Maze 4. Right now 1C cooler than the Maze 4 and 3C warmer than the Lemon Block. I see no point in doing a long term test as you would be pretty stupid not to use a good regular water block over this. However Direct Die #2 is in the works. I am going ot use the T-Bird bretb sent me. This time I am going to remove the jets and try and make one big cone style jet right over the die and see what happens.

I got some pics here but my host is still having issues so I am not sure if they will show up or not. Sooner or later they will.

Zhentar · 08-31-2003, 06:07 PM

at least it looks real nice.

jaydee · 08-31-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zhentar
at least it looks real nice.

Yeah, clear silicon rules! It took the machine marks out of the middle peice completly.

satanicoo · 08-31-2003, 06:53 PM

So the theory of gaining a bit of those 8 degrees on the TIM are smoked right?
Or is this a limitation of water only?

jaydee · 08-31-2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by satanicoo
So the theory of gaining a bit of those 8 degrees on the TIM are smoked right?
Or is this a limitation of water only?

Honestly I don't know WTF to think. They say water is plenty effiecent at 3gph to cool a 120watt per centimeter squared area (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7745), yet I can't cool the die with 100GPH's! I don't know. I am missing something I guess......

satanicoo · 08-31-2003, 08:04 PM

hummmnnn, maybe, just maybe, the TIM joint isnt 8 degrees after all...

08-28-2003, 12:02 PM	#83
freeloadingbum Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: winnipeg Posts: 129	bigben2k, I don't think you quite understand what i mean. If after repeated tests the second joint is shown to add, lets say, 5C to the total temperature, then we can conclude that the first joint is adding a little less than 5C (due to the resistance of the copper spacer) . After that you can throw away the spacer. Without the spacer, the first joint should still be accountable for a little less than 5C of the final resulting temperature (+/- variations in paste applications) . Last edited by freeloadingbum; 08-28-2003 at 12:08 PM.

08-28-2003, 01:18 PM	#84
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yeah, but how do you know that the second joint is the same as the first? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2003, 09:48 PM	#79
Althornin Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 221	this research paper (dealing with carbon black as a new TIM) might offer some insight. here

08-27-2003, 11:16 PM	#81
freeloadingbum Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: winnipeg Posts: 129	With regards to how much the temp is increased due to the T.I.M. joint, wouldn't simply adding a second T.I.M. joint give you a fairly good idea? If you were to use a thin piece of copper (.030") about the same size as the die in the middle of the block and cpu (AS3 on both sides) , the increase in temp should be a bit more than the first T.I.M. joint (due to the added resistance of the copper shim).

08-28-2003, 01:53 PM	#85
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Tonight I will drop in the Duron 1.3gig with the Lemon Block being it is already setup. I will run it tonight and gather some measurments. Tomorrow I will drop on the Maze 4 and gather some measurments, and then Saturday I will setup the Direct Die block and see what happens. I think it will work pretty good. Those 6 jets powered by the hydroThruster 500GPH pump should give plenty of water pressure on the die to work.

08-28-2003, 08:02 PM	#86
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I got the 1200 TBird today. I oput it on right when I got home 20mins ago and it works fine. Took it to 1400mhz with no problem. Going to take it off for now though and drop the Duron on and get going with this project. Lemon block today, Maze 4 tomorrow, and Direct Die Saturday.

08-30-2003, 11:36 AM	#87
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Will be updateing this project at my site. Will not be posting much on this site anymore in light of this: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7782

08-30-2003, 06:30 PM	#91
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Block is up and running. It looks great! You can easily see through the entire block. At an angle you can see the die even. So far temps are exellent but equilibrium has yet to set in. Also note I ended up NOT using the Hydrothruster 500 and opted to use my 170GPH Little Giant pump. Flow is very restricted as there is not much water coming out the outlet but non the less it is working. Note I also tested the other two blocks already with this same setup. Will report back in a while.

08-30-2003, 06:40 PM	#92
gone_fishin Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Da UP Posts: 517	Direct water application is interesting. My thoughts would be to utilize the IHS of the P4 and any future processors that use it. Specifically etching the surface of the heatspreader and no contact other than with the heatspreader. Thoughts or comments on this line of approach would be interesting.

08-31-2003, 10:58 AM	#94
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I added a 200GPH pump in the same line so I got a 200GPH and a 170GPH. That gave a noticeable boost in flow. Over night the temps stabilized at 1C below the Maze 4. Still flow is not good. I am going to try and get the HydroThruster 500GPH setup to run this and see what happens.

08-31-2003, 05:05 PM	#95
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I got the HydroThruster setup and running. Pretty disappointed in this direct die cooling so far. I got plenty of flow now and still the temps are pretty close the Maze 4. Right now 1C cooler than the Maze 4 and 3C warmer than the Lemon Block. I see no point in doing a long term test as you would be pretty stupid not to use a good regular water block over this. However Direct Die #2 is in the works. I am going ot use the T-Bird bretb sent me. This time I am going to remove the jets and try and make one big cone style jet right over the die and see what happens. I got some pics here but my host is still having issues so I am not sure if they will show up or not. Sooner or later they will.

08-31-2003, 06:07 PM	#96
Zhentar Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 225	at least it looks real nice.

08-31-2003, 06:53 PM	#98
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	So the theory of gaining a bit of those 8 degrees on the TIM are smoked right? Or is this a limitation of water only?

08-31-2003, 08:04 PM	#100
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	hummmnnn, maybe, just maybe, the TIM joint isnt 8 degrees after all...

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