New dangerden block

[RickCain]

Looks like DD might have to widen this new block... Ooops... it will make it look like a WW.

[micnoel]

I've been making the rounds to a few forums, and i am glad to finally find a group of people who are thinking logically. The new DD block Does look alot like the WW, and i am glad to see cathar respond. I know that there are lots of products that get their idea's "borrowed" everyday, but i had higher hopes for this community than a blatant copy of the WW. This is just another example of how $$$$$ is what the world is all about.

[Aardil]

I dont post much, more of a noob than I really care to admit but,
I think I have a solution to alot of the bickering that goes on lately.
Would it make more sense to test a block, report findings, state how those results were obtained and LEAVE OUT anything that says or implies that it out performs block X ??
In other words report your findings and forget the comparing crap. It just seems to start flame wars and while they can be fun to read, it really doesnt benifit anyone.

OK now I am ready
FLAME AWAY
Aardil
Edited for spelling and its Probably STILL WRONG

[DMOS]

The problem with that logic is that the results really don't tell you much by themselves. Each system and conditions are so different, that the results won't help you make much of a decision on the block itself. The only things you would get out of a review like that are subjective results such as ease of mounting, looks, and stuff like that. Comparing to another block in the same system in the same conditions lets the WB be (hopefully) the only variable present.

[kommando]

Okay right... let me get this straight DD makes a new block and it looks almost identical to WW. But why the hell would thye do that even if they knew it would look liek the WW. Surely they would have done something in the design of the block that would have a significant difference over the WW block.

Im bakcing cathar here i have huge faith in him and his designs and i have feeling DD did copy off the WW design but changed a few minor things that would technically make it not a WW.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by kommando
Im bakcing cathar here i have huge faith in him and his designs and i have feeling DD did copy off the WW design but changed a few minor things that would technically make it not a WW.

Hmmm, there's nothing really to back me over. I'm personally not in need of defence. I feel that should point that out.

If you or anyone else has an issue with what you perceive has taken place, then that's something for you to decide on.

I do not wish to be made a focal figurehead in any anti-DD sentiment. If people disagree with what's taken place, then please assess it on the basis of the actions, and not the individuals.

[Aardil]

Well I feel I must clarify my statement.
DMOS: The issue of the test data is being addressed in PH's worklog Current review project (MCWCHILL). Nut I understand that no two testbeds are the same and as the log points out there are many variables and some havent been pinned down as of yet.
My point was and is, that as soon as anyone mentions the words "work better or as good as Bran X" the flames begin.
Most of us here know that test results are only as good as the test sytem and the acuracy in takeing these measurements.
What was originally posted was or at least what I percieved to be a Priliminary post and he came here to see if there was something else that needed to be aded to the review, Well in normal fashion, he was called a thief, liar and cheat and an idiot in short terms. That doesnt sound very helpful to me.
I am not defending anyone nor am I condeming anyone, just stateing that that seems to be the first response. 160 posts later we find that the block doesnt sit on an AMD Chip correctly and this is something that is bad and needs to be reported.

As with all reviews, anyone can write one, most anyone can post one and I am sure most if not all of us has been burned at least once by a bias review.
Hope this makes since.
Aardil
And Yes I am still waiting on my Casades.

[Player0]

I spoke to Jeremy from DangerDen yesterday, and they mentioned that they will probably release a gasket to address the pad problems on the AMD.

For all the bad in this thread, Im sure some good will come of it. Some really good points have been made and Ive taken much of it in to consideration myself.

[jaydee]

Alright, I didn't think I would have to do this on ProCooling, but being Player0 felt it in his best intrest to start a thread on his site slagging us here at procooling I will now backup why I will dismiss anything coming from Player0's review for the sake of his viewers that have been linked to this thread. http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/show...&threadid=6410

Originally posted by Player0
At 2250mhz on an XP2400+ at 1.85v, HE120.3 radiator, Eheim 1060 pump, Im getting about 37c with the Cascade and 36c with the RBX.

Compared to the Maze4 which runs 39-40c, the AquaJoe at 41c, MCW5002 at 42c, SlitEdge at 42c, ThermoChill at 40c, and whatever else I tested.

Cathar, in his testing, stated that the Cascade is 2C cooler than the White Water, and the White water IIRC was a 2-4C cooler than the Maze 3. We have about 4 reviews of the Maze 4 claiming is it as good as the Maze 3 or WORST.

Couple examples here and I seen at least 2 more.
http://www.wc101.com/reviews/Maze4/
http://www.rbmods.com/Articles/Dangerden/Maze4/2.php
Now for the Slit Edge review by BillA
http://www.overclockers.com/articles748/index02.asp
compared to the White Water review also done by BillA
http://www.overclockers.com/articles692/index02.asp
They are pretty close. Both of these blocks should beat out the Maze 4 easily.
Now one more,the Aqua Joe block.
http://www.overclockers.com/articles850/
According to this review from JoeC it is a better block than what Player0 makes it out to be and i take his work pretty seriously.
I also have a Maze 4 of my own and use it as a reference block against my own blocks. I have one block that beats it by 4C and I am very confident that block is NOT better than the White Water nor the Cascade. The design just shouldn't be that good in theory. My tests are considerably stricter than Player0's aswell. I test each block for 24hrs. Hell it takes 1-2hrs just for the water temps to stabilize. Can't just throw a block on for 30minutes and expect good results.
Quote from Cathar:

originally posted by Cathar
Straight away on the first remount I'm seeing a full 2.0C clear lead over the best result I had previously gotten with the White Water over 12 mounts of that block. This is using a T'Bred B at 2400MHz/1.85v running BurnK7. This is significant because it was my design goal to gain a full 2C, and secondly, it's just the first time I've mounted the block. History tells me that I rarely get it right first time, so there may be a little bit more hiding there as I remount to test again.

Which came from THIS THREAD which I recommend you ALL read.

On different flow settings and overclocks, the Cascade does a little better. The Cascade does a little better with restricted flow than the RBX, but Im using the #4 jet. Im sure I could adjust the RBX with the #2 jet, but it might reduce performance. The blocks are VERY similar though in performance. I beleive the Cascade is just slightly better performing though. I need to remount the block and run some more tests though, these RBX numbers are just prelim.

Just the RBX? What about the Maze 4 at 39-40C? Which is it? 39C or 40C? This is what my remark about "looks like an unorganized fool" was about. I didn't call him that by the way, i just said he looks like one from that statment and others he made on his own testing.

Also another reason I will not waste my time reading his stuff even if it is good:

Originally posted by Player0


Well, it was off to a good start. I have yet to see any proof about the claims you have of my numbers 'not adding up to anyone elses'.



*laughs* You're ridiculous man. Thats my home forum. I just wanted to show them the discussions happening over here about the RBX. I can't breath over here with out getting shit on.



You dont know me. I dont want to know you. You have no idea about what your talking about, and your opinion doesn't matter to me (and apparantly few others even here).


Beleive me, I get hammered enough on LiquidNinjas.com by idiots like you. I dont recall asking for support, just pointing people on my site to a hilariously outrageous thread over here.



Are you insane? Are you on lithium pills or what? Yeah, I'm just doing it for the glory. You dont have a clue as to what your talking about. I do it for fun, and I do have a hell of a busy life outside of this 'hobby'. I think you need to stop taking shit so serious and get a real frickin life. Seriously.



What you lack in overall knowledge more than makes up for my lack of any design information



Someone like you drills a couple holes in a piece of copper and call himself an expert. If I have no respect for designers, then why am I in contact with so many of them? Why have people taken my opinions and changed their block designs around the things I've found fault in? But, don't expect me to every respect someone like you. Some know-it-all who's all talk on these forums but can't back a damn thing up in real life. At least I have the guts to put my opinions out there. Never once have I claimed to know it all or have all the answers. Yet it never surprises me the amount of people living in glass houses who love to throw stones.



Nope, we just weed out the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do all day than come online and argue like some twitching retard [/b]

(http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...5&pagenumber=1)

And from the ninja thread about us idiots over here that do not know the truth:

Originally posted by Player0
Hmm. I guess so. Well, I wont try and persuade any idiots over there to beleive the truth. I just wanted to add my two cents in to an arguement filled with uneducated people who havent even SEEN the damn block

Not only has he called us idiots here at ProCooling, but he also called his own readers idiots from his own site. Also note the idiots are always the one's who question him. Interesting eh? he only seems to know his truth and if anyone questions that they are idiots.

This is the last I will say on the matter and if anyone wants to flame me then please do it in a PM and don't waste anyone's time here. I don't feel like I was flaming the guy this time even though I have done similar in the past. I just call it as I am seeing it.

(To the Admin of this site) No Joe, this is not a pissing match I am trying to start, they questioned who I am and what I had to say earlier in this thrtead and in the thread started over there. I am not calling anyone an idiot or a moron and I do not recall doing it in THIS thread, nore do I remember calling myself an expert designer and overclocker as they seem to think over there. Where all that comes from I don't know. I do know the people of this site know who I am and what I have done in the Water Block Design and Construction forum here. Unfortunatly only my recent works pictures are showing up as I switched domain names and the links are all wrong, but I am resetting up my website at www.customcomp.us this weekend which will have most of the work I have done over the last 3 years. Should be fully operational mid next week. I will attempt to update the url's of the things I posted here aswell.

Anyway carry on.

[Player0]

It's amazing you can tell so much about one small sentence of numbers. The numbers in the review are much more detailed, they have been averaged, and they take ambient/water temps in to consideration. You have no idea what my final results are because you haven't heard them. I cant beleive you dont understand the meaning of the word 'preliminary'. Those are not the final numbers going in to the review. I am only focusing on the dT between cpu temps and water temps. But if you want to waste our time comparing my rough prelim numbers to other reviews, go right ahead. It's pretty pathetic that you cant understand that the review isnt completed yet, and that Ive said those numbers are PRELIM multiple times.

Just the RBX? What about the Maze 4 at 39-40C? Which is it? 39C or 40C? This is what my remark about "looks like an unorganized fool" was about. I didn't call him that by the way, i just said he looks like one from that statment and others he made on his own testing.

My own preliminary testing. You know how stupid you look coming here and quoting my prelim results and trying to call me a fool because of them? I said 39-40c because in my different tests, its around 39-40c on average. Hang on Killer, let me post my review, and then you can sit here crying about my numbers.

Not only has he called us idiots here at ProCooling, but he also called his own readers idiots from his own site. Also note the idiots are always the one's who question him. Interesting eh? he only seems to know his truth and if anyone questions that they are idiots.

I know you're trying to get everyone here on your side by making it look like Ive been bashing procooling. In fact, Ive only met a couple idiots over here, yourself included. I know youd like to make yourself look better by spreading my insult to others, but no, only a couple idiots here.

With that said, Ive also found out about your relationship with DTek, so why don't you share that here before you go on to talk about BIASed information. It's ironic how you like accusing me of having some sort of deal with DDen, when you're quite buddy-buddy over there with Dtek. So lets here about that, eh?

I thought I was being nice to the owners and admins over here by letting off steam about this situation on my own site. Ive been trying to avoid a flame war over here. But arguing with idiots is tiring on my nerves, and Ive gotta vocalize my opinions about certain individuals somewhere. How can I argue with someone who cant even stand the difference between prelim numbers and final results? You cant argue with crazy.

[Joe]

"Boy, these guys must have something against DangerDen."

Silly little man....

Danger Den is a sponsor of this site, and we have dealt with them for far longer than most anyone around (prolly on par with OC'rs) and far longer than you. I would think that maybe a dude who claims to be a reviewer would know a bit more about what he says before he says it (which is rarely the case these days with the cookie cutter shake/bake websites). I think the respect our staff and the site as a whole has for Danger Den is second to none. With respect comes no bullshit assessments of what they do. You cant respect something that you don’t care about.

You mistake constructive criticism and technical banter about a topic to be "against DangerDen" Hey... how do you think any advancement happens in the industry? Marketing talk and hype believers don’t push technology any further than adding blue LED's, and some CCFL's. Objective technical talk about a product is what helps improve it, make it better.

To knock a site for doing a detailed analysis based on design principles, and design sources is pretty much showing how limited your grasp is on the whole "technical" aspect of a review. And a total lack of understanding that good reviews have a responsibility to help IMPROVE products (if theres a flaw, which there always is) not just sell them.

Neub...

[Player0]

Joe,

I've spoken to Jeremy on the phone about you're relationship with DangerDen. I never meant to make it sound like I was ever bashing ProCooling. When Jeremy first pointed me to this thread, my initial impression was shock. I couldnt beleive how much flak the RBX was getting for simply existing, since I know first hand how much work DangerDen did do in the designing of the block, even if it was based on WhiteWater or Cascade or whatever else.

But at the time, I didnt know that the design WAS based off the WhiteWater originally, because I didn't know, and neither did DangerDen as far as I know from talking to them. I could never assume to know what DangerDen knew about the design or not, but I dont beleive their intention was to ever 'screw' anyone or steal designs. They are just a small bunch of guys who love making blocks.

To knock a site for doing a detailed analysis based on design principles, and design sources is pretty much showing how limited your grasp is on the whole "technical" aspect of a review or a reviews responsibility to help IMPROVE products not just sell them.

Ive never knocked any site, and im not sure what youre referring too. Of course, I never called your site 'cookie-cutter'. Ive never bashed procooling, or anyones testing methods. Just certain individuals who wanted to have at me.

[Player0]

PS - My shake and bake website gets more traffic than ProCooling. So I must be doing something right.

[Joe]

Maybe I mistook that thread, but it sure looked like you were trying to smear someone there and I coulda sworn it was Procooling.

Something about "Well, I wont try and persuade any idiots over there to beleive the truth." I dunno

Maybe I am all wrong. and yes a VBportal site is just a cookie cutter, along the same lines as phpnuke, just a lil more creative.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Player0
PS - My shake and bake website gets more traffic than ProCooling. So I must be doing something right.

How would you know that? I dont remember posting website traffic stats up. is this just your technical abilities shine'n though again? doing some solid objective reporting about items that you have no idea about? Citing sources that havent been updated in over 2 years?

Keep up the good work.

Guessing Goatse.cx gets more traffic than you I am pretty sure.. what does that say?

[Player0]

Sorry man, Im seriously not trying to smear procooling, and im sorry if i gave off that impression. I would rather get off on the right foot here. My first experience here just hasnt been that good.

Any idiots regarding to any idiots that may reside here. every site has a couple. Not referring to everyone here as idiots. Not by any stretch.

Yeah, its cookie cutter, but i was in a rush. I code PHP ecommerce sites all day, so I cheated. We're redesging the whole site, and ive changed the vBportal code so much its quite different at this point.

[Player0]

alexa.com

[Player0]

Nope, get more than goatse, but its quite appaling how much they get

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Player0


With that said, Ive also found out about your relationship with DTek, so why don't you share that here before you go on to talk about BIASed information. It's ironic how you like accusing me of having some sort of deal with DDen, when you're quite buddy-buddy over there with Dtek. So lets here about that, eh?

Whatever about the other BS you just posted, but I sure the hell would LOVE to see how you came to this conclusion. I respect for D-Tek because they do not try and copy designs, they ask people that make excellent designs such as Fixittt and Cathar, to see if they can make, market, and sell those blocks. I have ALOT of respect fot the business model D-tek takes in the water cooling industry. I respect Swiftech just as much. And infact up untill this block was released I ALWAYS supported and backed Danger Den.

Guess what dude, I make my own water blocks! And guess what dude, I choose a Danger Den block, the Maze 4 right after it came out, to use as guage against my own stuff. I have nothing to be biased about. I call it as I see it. If D-tek did something like DD did here you can bet your ass I would have the same opinion of them.

And once again I get called an idiot. :shrug: I don't mind being called that but damn, at least justify it. I have tried my best not to resort to name calling and IIRC I haven't yet.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Player0
alexa.com

ahahah Alexa Yeh its pretty easy to show how inaccurate alexa is in practice. Any "traffic" rating that doesn’t actually use traffic to base its results is bound to be 100% reliable

hahaha

Also, lets be serious here... everyone knows that "traffic" doesn’t = quality. EVER. Look at Toms Hardware, or HardOCP... the summits of quality hehhe

Sarcasm is so hard to convey over posts... but trust me there’s a good bit in there.

[MadHacker]

Jaydee
Don't argue with Idiots
they bring you down to their level....
and beat you with experience
my 2cents

[pHaestus]

Who gives a **** what site gets more hits? Britney Spears sold more records than Beethoven last year too; does that make her music superior? I honestly don't write articles for ad money or page views; I do it to fill holes in the watercooling knowledge that's available. I look at Procooling not as a hardware review site as much as a water cooling resource site.

I think if you look at how issues with Dangerden have been handled in the past at Proforums you'll find we are far from DD haters. lRemember the the cracking of first run Maze3 blocks? That could have been a huge PITA for DD but it was dealt with professionally by both them and the members of this forum (who were the bulk of the early maze3 adopters).

[jaydee]

Originally posted by MadHacker
Jaydee
Don't argue with Idiots
they bring you down to their level....
and beat you with experience
my 2cents

I am not trying to argue. Just trying to understand how he keeps pulling stuff out of thin air, get called on it, retract it, then do it all over again. Thne say it was not my intention... Then accuse me of trying to gain suporters (LOL, you all should know by now that is completely wrong ), and then accuse me of being special buds with D-Tek??? I have swapped 2-3 e-mails with them EVER! One was just recently in fact, here is a snip:

Subject: Re: Possible rip off attempt.
From: "D-TEK \(Support\)" <support@dtekcustoms.com>
Date: Wed, November 5, 2003 3:18 pm
To: manager@customcomp.us
Priority: Normal
Options: View Full Header | View Printable Version




Hi,

Thanks again. We did get notified by several including the original designer
of the WW. Thanks for the heads up. It is much appreciated. By the way
what is your name?




Thanks,
Danny
www.dtekcustoms.com
Ph 949-829-0067
Fax 949-829-0078

HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHO I WAS!!!!! yeah great buddies we are.

[Player0]

I think if you look at how issues with Dangerden have been handled in the past at Proforums you'll find we are far from DD haters. lRemember the the cracking of first run Maze3 blocks? That could have been a huge PITA for DD but it was dealt with professionally by both them and the members of this forum (who were the bulk of the early maze3 adopters).

Again, wasnt referring to all of ProCoolers. There are certainly quite a few DDen haters in this thread, and you can't really deny that. I never said that Procooling itself was involved in any of it.

Jaydee, Im not wasting anymore time responding to you. I think your guilty of all the same things youve accused me of, so its not doing me any good.

[Joe]

Cant we just stop the bickering and start measure'n our dicks? Cause thats what this is all about isnt it??


I mean thats the only way to be sure...

hehe once again sarcasam could be lost in the thought to text conversion, so please imply it on the decode.