How much pump is enough? How much is too much?

[Torin]

This could just be a classic case of personal validation of behavior. Swiftech made a decision that ended up in them dropping the MCP600, and as a result people feel it necessary to back up that decision by badmouthing the product. I doubt a non-biased opinion about the 50Z/MCP600 Rev.2 would be coming from Swiftech.

[Althornin]

Originally Posted by dacooltech

Bob if we were talking about an old / high maintenance vehicle, or something else you may be right. Maybe I wasn't specific enough.
I was specifically talking about the MCP600 / AquaXtreme 50Z, and I have no idea whatsoever what exact problem Bill is talking about and where / how Swiftech spent thousands of $s ??? Guess, that's something only he can explain.

AQX-50Z is a perfectly good product, outperforming the muffled D4, DDC and other pumps in its category. Oh yea guess why Bill tries to paint a picture as if this pump is not well suited for our application. As shown in this particular thread, it's the best freakin' pump for WCing.

I mean come'n, if this pump is a failure as Bill tries to put it, are we crazy to put 2yrs warranty on it? I am not talking about the manufacturer's warranty either, i mean we as in Cooltechnica warrants the AQX-50Z-DC12 pump for 2yrs.

The only difference that I can think of is that Swiftech supplied the MCP600 with 1/4" ID reducers -since they offer 3/8"ID 1/2"OD tube only- , and we did not use el cheapo reducers whatsoever. I don't know if this has anything to do with whatever problem Bill is talking about. but hey if they had thousands of $$s to spare, maybe they should get the NPT threaded version of the pump, and spent some money on female 1/2"NPT by 1/2"OD quick-connects, instead of trying to save a few bucks by going with el cheapo 1/4"ID nylon reducers.

This's the version of the pump that we offer for 1/2"OD tube with quick-connects:


Swiftech never offered a version of this pump with quick-connects.

Man, i think you have ISSUES.

I didn't get that picture from Bill at all.
What i got was that
1) They have a higher failure rate from those pumps than they do with the liang ones
2) The problem, if you can't remember was the bearing problem specifically mentioned by bill a few posts up. The one where swiftech had to send out new pump heads to tons of people? Ring any bells?

3) Sure, your pump may perform better, but what is its MTBF? Reliability has meaning as well. Great, you have a 2 year warranty. The liang pumps have a 5 year MTBF. different people have different concerns. I know that if i was trying to build an image of a reliable provider, i'd want a product that - even at the cost of some performance - had less failures, because reliability is my main goal. Your is performance, and I don't think bill was saying that is "Wrong" - just that it is not the direction swiftech is going.

But whatever.
I'm sure a genious like Torin will just rationalize everything i've said as some absurd "personal validation" speech.

[BillA]

you will gain credibility Bruce , if you talk straight
"if this pump is a failure as Bill tries to put it"
you are posting crap, please provide the quote where I described the pump as a "failure"

the topic is reliability, and your outraged vendor antics do not change the product produced by PanWorld
they need to quantify a MTBF value, and have customers with better experience than mine

"I have no idea whatsoever what exact problem Bill is talking about"
if you read you will find answers, my statement: "the failures are perplexing; most are dead while others (~50%) develop an intermittent run/erratic start problem"
this situation has existed from the start and despite MANY discussions remained unresolved
- this was discussed with PanWorld numerous times

$s spent ? Gabe and I calculated our expenses after the pump head business and they were over 5K (many weeks of my and Gabe's time on the phone dealing with unhappy customers, cross-shipping costs, etc.)

"Bill tries to paint a picture as if this pump is not well suited for our application"
you should read with more care and less anger
"well suited" was wrt the larger pumps that some in this thread are considering, specifically the pump head construction wrt NPSH
Bruce - after the pump head was redesigned it was/is eminently suitable for WCing systems
(why do you think I sourced it ?, why do you think I stayed with it through the pump head re-design process ?)

"As shown in this particular thread, it's the best freakin' pump for WCing."
- less the characteristic of reliability
as I said, reliability is not the greatest concern for all (and I cited Danner users as an example)

I do believe the 2 year warranty on this pump was initiated by Swiftech, the mfgrs being 1 year
note we are not talking about the mfgr here, just 2 resellers making the risk analysis as to the contingent liability associated with offering a longer warranty
- this is marketing stuff Bruce, what's the point you wanted to make here ?

the last is you dissing another product, I thought you said "Can anyone remind Bill that ProForums is not SwiftechForums, and pimping or vendors bashing other vendors' products is not allowed."
??

Torin
I do suggest you use Bruce as your source of data in the future, I sense a good match there

[dacooltech]

Man, i think you have ISSUES.

yes I do sometimes

The problem, if you can't remember was the bearing problem specifically mentioned by bill a few posts up. The one where swiftech had to send out new pump heads to tons of people? Ring any bells?

"Unregistered: Somewhat different experience than ours with the same Rev.2,
granted we have a much larger number of pumps in service (several thousands)"

We're talking about the rev 2 of the pump, not rev 1. Bearing issue that you're talking about is related to the MCP600 rev.1.

AQX-50Z is rev. 2 , no bearing issues here.

3) Sure, your pump may perform better, but what is its MTBF? Reliability has meaning as well. Great, you have a 2 year warranty. The liang pumps have a 5 year MTBF. different people have different concerns. I know that if i was trying to build an image of a reliable provider, i'd want a product that - even at the cost of some performance - had less failures, because reliability is my main goal. Your is performance, and I don't think bill was saying that is "Wrong" - just that it is not the direction swiftech is going.

ofcourse reliability has a great meaning and we don't have any reliability issues with our pumps. FYI manufacturer warrants the pump for 1yr. I mentioned our 2 yrs warranty to highlight our trust in the product. Like I said, if people have any problems or concerns with a product, you read it in the forums.
Let me clarify one thing, D4 is not a poor performer, and it's a good pump. It's just a tad bit noisy to my ears. Regardless of manufacturer's MTBF claim, if I'm not mistaking Swiftech also offers 2 yrs warranty on the D4.

[DDogg]

Oh lordie lord, I'm perplexed that my semi-dumb question stirred up a ruckus. Probably time for cool heads to prevail. Both you guys have major experience in the ways of forums and know this type of thing is always a lose-lose scenario for all parties concerned.

As a semi-ignorant representing many of the readers, I think can tell you what I have taken from all this. As a simple minded single pump buyer looking for a good powerful pump, I would buy the AQX-50Z because of Cathar's clear recommendation and the seemingly near perfect specs, but - and I think this is important - because of the fact that it has been vetted and the pump head redesigned with the input of Bill who knows his stuff (kind of ironic). I'm willing to risk a minor chance of electronic failure if it exists because it does not concern me as an enthusiast who monitors his equipment constantly. The 2 year warranty doesn't hurt a bit either. Same reason I push my CPU to 2.1 volts, I accept it may crater at some time in the future. As an enthusiast that makes me no difference.

However, if I were doing OEM production of a prepackaged cooling solution (or a distributor of one), I would have to go with the Liang. Absolute unattended reliability would have to be the central decision maker in that situation. That is really all I 'heard' Bill to be saying - although sure there may have been a slight FUDish flavor to the words.

Bill clearly said, several times, it [AQX-50Z] is a good pump now. He also implied (my read only), that Swiftech can't afford to have any more pump problems as a major distributor, hence the choice of the Liang. That is clear (to me) in these quotes -

Bruce said - "As shown in this particular thread, it's the best freakin' pump for WCing."
Bill said - "less the characteristic of reliability
as I said, reliability is not the greatest concern for all (and I cited Danner users as an example)"

I'm only posting this because of a feeling I caused tension with my question and to point out that neither of you have suffered any business hurt to one another (to anybody reading the thread closely). Each product is needed and has a market specific to its market definition.

Maybe just let it be, guys? (and don't throw rocks at me please).

[dacooltech]

you will gain credibility Bruce , if you talk straight
"if this pump is a failure as Bill tries to put it"
you are posting crap, please provide the quote where I described the pump as a "failure"

I don't think my credibility was ever in question Bill.

the failures are perplexing; most are dead while others (~50%) develop an intermittent run/erratic start problem

and yet you're saying you don't describe the pump as a failure ?

and many thousands of $s 'fixing' a problem not apparent initially,

$s spent ? Gabe and I calculated our expenses after the pump head business and they were over 5K (many weeks of my and Gabe's time on the phone dealing with unhappy customers, cross-shipping costs, etc.)

Oh Ok then. i thought you literally spent thousands of $$s fixing the product, as in developing some part or something for the product, like Bob was describing it as well.

I never put a Danner or Sicce pump in any of my WC systems nor offered it to our customers. It's plain and simple to me, if I don't use it, i don't offer it in the store. and 50Z is definitely nothing like a Danner.

I mentioned our 2yrs warranty to highlight our trust in this product, not for marketing.

1/4"ID nylon reducers thing is the only difference that I can think of, since we don't experience the problems that you're describing with the pump and same ID tube that you use. Again maybe the reducers are not the cause of your problems, but still something that we don't use.

I don't hear any bad experiences from our customers regarding the AQX-50Z, too bad you did/do.

[BillA]

all products will have some failure rate, be it ever so small
that there are 'isolated' failures does not ipso facto make the product a failure
its a question of percentages, the pump heads at 30+% (initially !) represented a product (application) failure - the pump was fine in systems with no inlet restriction (NPSH)

the remaining problem is electrical (hall effect sensor I suspect, will not start reliably if one sensor goes out)
these are the defectives that I'm getting back at 1 - 2/mo

"I don't hear any bad experiences from our customers regarding the AQX-50Z, too bad you did/do."
you phraseology is cute, I know nothing about the AQX-50Z, have never commented about it, and have heard nothing about it
I am talking about the MCP600 as sold by Swiftech

DD, don't sweat it
I am among the rudest here, I just get it back occasionally (deserved or not, lol)

your assessment is correct, Swiftech will trade a bit of performance (and noise even) for increased reliability

while Swiftech has been involved in WCing from the onset where everything was a DIY adaptation, the present intent is to provide a comprehensive solution of balanced components having those features relevant to WCing performance
but you can't cool if the system fails, reliability is now #1 here - even at somewhat higher pricing

[Althornin]

Originally Posted by dacooltech

We're talking about the rev 2 of the pump, not rev 1. Bearing issue that you're talking about is related to the MCP600 rev.1.

AQX-50Z is rev. 2 , no bearing issues here.

ok, you are wrong here.
My statement was in response to your statement about the "thousands of dollars":

Originally Posted by dacooltech

I have no idea whatsoever what exact problem Bill is talking about and where / how Swiftech spent thousands of $s ???

That was spent on the rev 1 pump head/bearing issue, EXACTLY as i said, and as Bill says:

Originally Posted by bill

$s spent ? Gabe and I calculated our expenses after the pump head business and they were over 5K (many weeks of my and Gabe's time on the phone dealing with unhappy customers, cross-shipping costs, etc.)

ok?

Originally Posted by dacooltech

ofcourse reliability has a great meaning and we don't have any reliability issues with our pumps. FYI manufacturer warrants the pump for 1yr. I mentioned our 2 yrs warranty to highlight our trust in the product. Like I said, if people have any problems or concerns with a product, you read it in the forums.
Let me clarify one thing, D4 is not a poor performer, and it's a good pump. It's just a tad bit noisy to my ears. Regardless of manufacturer's MTBF claim, if I'm not mistaking Swiftech also offers 2 yrs warranty on the D4.

So?
2 year warranty != 50,000 hour MTBF.
No one is trashing your pumps! They are only saying they are NOT AS RELIABLE AS THE LIANG D4.
To argue otherwise is sheer stupidity on your part.

And one last thing:

Originally Posted by bill

the failures are perplexing; most are dead while others (~50%) develop an intermittent run/erratic start problem

So then you say:

Originally Posted by dacooltech

and yet you're saying you don't describe the pump as a failure ?

No, he is not! Hello? For the reading impaired, Bill is saying that 50% OF THE FAILED PUMPS exibit this issue (erratic start/stop), not 50% of all the pumps swiftech sold. So no, I don't see this as Bill describing the pump as a failure.
How do you?

Stop projecting so much, jeez...

[dacooltech]

Originally Posted by unregistered

you phraseology is cute, I know nothing about the AQX-50Z, have never commented about it, and have heard nothing about it
I am talking about the MCP600 as sold by Swiftech

Bill you were asked this Q:

As I understand it, the AquaXtreme 50Z-DC12 is a 'version 2' of the MCP600 that was created after there were some problems with MCP600 V1 (please correct if I am mistaken).

That leads to the question - How long has the version 2 of the AquaXtreme 50Z been available, and is there any anecdotal experiences from users of the newer version pump failing for whatever reason?

and here's your response:

jesus christ, I handle all warranty claims for pumps
I do suspect that Swiftech has sold many more thousands of these Rev.2 pumps than Cooltechnia (probably ever will)

re-read my posts

please re-read your posts

If you know nothing about the AQX-50Z, heard nothing about it, and yes pls do not comment about it, nor Cooltechnica.

DD don't feel bad, it's got nothing to do with you, you asked valid Qs. And you're right, just let it be...

[BillA]

not the interpretation I had when writing it, but presented thusly I see why you are objecting
I apologize Bruce, did NOT mean to be characterizing your color of the same pump Swiftech sold
jeez, and now I'm to be castigated for Cooltechnia ?
is it the moon Bruce ?

[dacooltech]

Originally Posted by unregistered

not the interpretation I had when writing it, but presented thusly I see why you are objecting
I apologize Bruce, did NOT mean to be characterizing your color of the same pump Swiftech sold
jeez, and now I'm to be castigated for Cooltechnia ?
is it the moon Bruce ?

OK Bill, cool. apology accepted.

[nimrod_o]

Reading these two pages left me with my mouth open.

So i understand 50Z/MCP600 Rev.2 - is a panworld pump - but is it made specifically for Cooltechnica? if not what is it - what series does it belong too?

As Cooltechnica actually deals with Panworld i would like your opinion (form dacooltech) as to the PIZ series from this thread here made by Panworld - do you think there are applicable for PC water cooling?

[Cathar]

Just been playing with the Iwaki RD-30 lately.

Reflecting upon my statements in the second post about an "ideal" pump:

6-8mH2O (20-26') of peak pressure head
12-13LPM (3.2-3.4 US GPM) peak flow rate
25-30W nominal power draw (when in operation)
12VDC
Separated Magnetic Armature design (~16-20W of heat added to the water)
Centrifugal pump

When run at 18v, the RD-30 is exactly the pump that I describe.

Even better - it's very quiet at 18v. Had to turn down the Laing D4 to 5v (nearly at stall point) before I would say that the two sounded as loud as each other. About as loud as an Eheim 1250, but with a non-annoying sine-wave whine, rather than the rumble that the E1250 has, or the buzzy whine of the D4's.

At 18V, the RD-30 has 28-30W nominal power draw against typical loop resistances. It's providing 4.7mH2O pressure at 6LPM is what I've measured so far (but I need to check that figure some more).

I'm just excited because at this early stage of testing it's pretty much everything I described, with the exception of having to be run at 18v rather than 12v.

If Iwaki released an RD-15 (or whatever) that ran at 12v in the same way that the RD-30 runs at 18v, then that would be exactly the pump that would be as close to a "one-size fits all" ideal, with the exception of its size (~10x11x12cm including barbs). Best of all, it's also really quiet - and that's the big thing.

[MaxxxRacer]

Cathar do you got a pic of it or any links.. From teh dimensions its not too big. smaller than my md20. thats for sure.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer

Cathar do you got a pic of it or any links.. From teh dimensions its not too big. smaller than my md20. thats for sure.

No pics yet. The MD-20 and MD-30 are the same size. Next to my MD30, the RD-30 is cylindrical like the MD-30 but half as long (including fittings in that). i.e. a short squat cylinder.

Without fittings, the RD30 is 85mm (d) x 95mm (h) x 105mm (w) in size.

[psychofunk]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Just been playing with the Iwaki RD-30....Best of all, it's also really quiet - and that's the big thing.

And the price? Or is this one of the deals that Nik had?

[nikhsub1]

Yes it is one that I sent to Cathar. Here are some pics next to the G5. Stew I really want some numbers at 24v!

[Bugsmasher]

So, at 24v the pump requires 3.2amps. Assuming I plan on running it at 18v as Cathar has suggested for the combination of low noise, low heat added to the loop, and almost spot-on dream performance what amperage rating should I be looking for in a power supply? 5amps give or take to handle the start-up load?

[nikhsub1]

Iwaki specs say the pump needs 10A to startup, Cathar should be able to tell us for sure though.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Iwaki specs say the pump needs 10A to startup, Cathar should be able to tell us for sure though.

I originally had a 2.5A rated 19v switchmode laptop PSU before I hooked up the MeanWell PSU, and it (the 2.5A laptop PSU) started the pump up just fine every time.

I think 10A at startup is being very generous. A 5A rated PSU would suffice just fine at 24v, and a 3A rated PSU would also do just fine if running below 20v.

[brucoman]

RD-30

running 24/7 last month with (2) G4's & Fedco 2-342

running on a 3.2A PS at 24v

measured running current draw 0.3A (with clamp-on meter), up to 0.7A at free flowing

curious as to low current draw as measured

also note, must turn pump on/off with switch in DC line, not AC line or pump often fails to restart (as documented by Iwaki)

Iwaki calls for min. 22v to start, haven't tested that yet

[HammerSandwich]

Cathar, how low can you undervolt your RD-30?

[CoolROD]

Originally Posted by brucoman

RD-30

running 24/7 last month with (2) G4's & Fedco 2-342

running on a 3.2A PS at 24v

measured running current draw 0.3A (with clamp-on meter), up to 0.7A at free flowing

curious as to low current draw as measured

also note, must turn pump on/off with switch in DC line, not AC line or pump often fails to restart (as documented by Iwaki)

Iwaki calls for min. 22v to start, haven't tested that yet

Did you put the clamp-on meter on just one leg of the power supply ac line?

edit: most clamp-on meters are inaccurate. I take the readings from mine with a grain of salt...

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by brucoman

measured running current draw 0.3A (with clamp-on meter), up to 0.7A at free flowing

curious as to low current draw as measured

also note, must turn pump on/off with switch in DC line, not AC line or pump often fails to restart (as documented by Iwaki)

Iwaki calls for min. 22v to start, haven't tested that yet

Definitely draws more than 0.7A, no matter what you're doing. Would suggest that clamp-on meter is very faulty/inaccurate. I measured my current draw with two different in-line meters.

Pump starts just fine down to as low as 14v.

[Edit: Are you measuring the DC or AC amperage?]

[CoolROD]

Originally Posted by Cathar

[Edit: Are you measuring the DC or AC amperage?]

I was hinting at that...the clamp-on should have read zero across one or both DC lines.