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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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#141 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Should be done somepoint beginning of next week... and now I've got a motorbike to repair after dropping it this morning doing 60 round a roundabout
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#142 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Could also be useful to produce a list of suitable fans for use with it from other manufacturers as well as PAPST as an alternative in case of market availability... These Xinruillian cheapy fans I muck about with are silent in the 0.18a format but have no info on generated air pressure... will poke about and see what I can find out...
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#143 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Do you have access to the Yate-Loon/Tricod fans over there, which are slightly modified, rebadged and sold as the Nexus brand fans?
These are perhaps THE fan of choice when it comes to low-noise radiator fannage. Not quite as powerful as the Papst 4412FGL's (~80-85% at a guess), but certainly MUCH quieter. If you're having trouble finding them locally, I can send some over to you. |
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#144 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Ah.... Nexus... yes, most likely.... will find a link for you to check...
EDIT: http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/...t_Fans_72.html But 120mm out of stock - have just e-mailed Graham for an ETA but usually a month or two, so if you could get me some any quicker that'd be most appreciated... Quote:
Last edited by Marci; 03-18-2005 at 07:55 AM. |
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#145 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 67
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I don't understand the obsession with 120mm fans. There are several OEMs of 180mmx50mm fans like the Patriot. While they are a tad big for the "Chevette" 150mm cores, they are a perfect match for the "Camaro" 180mm cores. The 24V Patriot, run at 12V is very quiet. With the fan and radiator having the same OD, you don't have to make a sloped shroud. Straight wall works perfectly. Given the tolerance of the Patriot for resistance, only one is needed in a pull configuration. I've tried two in push-pull with no improvement on heat exchange though they are louder. I have my shroud set at 25mm spacing from the intake side of the blades to the fins of the radiator. The Camaro radiator cost the same and sometimes is cheaper than the Chevette one, depending upon where you get it and it has 12mm ID tubes on it already. Despite the Camaros greater dimensions, it still fits inside a tower, though not offering much "wiggle room". You can pick up the 24V Patriots from several surplus houses here in the states for around $12US new or $10US used. Surely other countries have surplus houses? Food for thought...
Hoot
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DFI LP UT NF4 Ultra-D 7.04-3 Bios A64 3700+ San Diego 11x257 (2827 Mhz) @ 1.57Vcore 2x1Gb Crucial Ballistix 7:6 (300 Mhz) 3-3-3-8-1T @ 2.77V Connect 3D x850xt 620/625 2x WD 36GB Raptors in Raid0 DIY Jet Impingement WB on CPU / Pipecap WB on GPU Shrouded Camaro Heater Core / Swiftech MCP655 Pump Antec P-160 Tower / Seasonic S12 600W PSU MAXIM 6658 Thermal Diode Reader Moderator at OCForums |
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#146 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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How many were you after?
They cost £4 each here (incl. tax), with shipping to the UK being around £2 each, unless you're talking about dozens of them. Alternately I'll ship you a quantity in exchange for a PA160.1 core. ![]() Unsure about shipping arrangements to Australia for you - typically these things are done by weight here in Oz, unless you're talking about "buying" a portion of a shipping container. |
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#147 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Need to remember Hoot, we're talking about the near-silence obsessed here. Fans that you can barely hear (or not hear at all) in a quiet room, with everything else turned off, in the middle of the night. |
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#148 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Expect an e-mail from me imminently Cathar....
![]() EDIT: YGM Last edited by Marci; 03-18-2005 at 08:09 AM. |
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#149 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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On that low-noise topic, the "goal" here is to approach something of a low-noise utopic setup. I would suggest:
Laing DDC (with optional inlet modification) The PA160.1 core as defined above A single or double-push-pull Yate-Loon/Tricod/Nexus/Papst 4412FGL fanned setup attached to a Rheobus 3/8" or 7/16" ID tubing A CPU waterblock of moderate pressure drop that performs well at ~5LPM which is the sort of flow rate we'd be expecting with said pump/radiator/tubing Such a setup would be marrying the multi-faceted goals of near top-end water-cooling performance in a compact(ish) and near silent (read as: have trouble distinguishing if system is turned on at all in a quiet room) format. Sure, can knock off a further 3C or so off a 100W CPU by boosting pump + radiator size, but could still achieve close to that in near silence as well by adding a second PA160.1 radiator. i.e. make water-cooling be all that it can be. |
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#150 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Hmmm.... can anyone remember where the ThermoChill CPU Blocks fell in the testing tables?? I know they were more suited to low flowrate 1048ish pumps than 1250 pumps... but would they fulfil this criteria? We have loads of em that never sold for S462 / s478 that I was contemplating getting tops made for to conver tup to A64 / LGA775 to try and move the last of the stocks and then discontinue, but if the block fulfils this criteria then it may be a case of making the changes then putting them back into production and remarketing...
Obvious aim that I'd been looking towards here is ThermoTube res, PA160 rad, DDC or CSP-Mag Pump, ThermoChill Block so that we finally have a 1/2" (or 7/16" if I can find all the right barbs) based British Manufactured kit that has been made to the specifications of those who know, which was one of the original reasons for ThermoChill existing in the first place... Quote:
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#151 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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The tubing that I use, and recommend, is this one: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pro...duct%5Fid=7689 Item No: 54047 Really good stuff. Much easier to work with than 1/2" ID tubing, slips over 1/2" OD fittings as noted, bends tighter radii without kinking and with MUCH less effort, does not sacrifice flow-rates if using less than 3 metere of it when slipped over 1/2" OD barbs, and is slimmer and neater looking. |
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#152 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Bookmarked, noted, and enquiry e-mail for trade supplies in quantity sent!
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#153 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 67
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Edit: Also consider the EBM/Pabst 7112 available from MPJA for the "Chevette" class of heater cores. Its 150x38mm size matches the 150mm footprint of that class of heater core perfectly. Hoot
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DFI LP UT NF4 Ultra-D 7.04-3 Bios A64 3700+ San Diego 11x257 (2827 Mhz) @ 1.57Vcore 2x1Gb Crucial Ballistix 7:6 (300 Mhz) 3-3-3-8-1T @ 2.77V Connect 3D x850xt 620/625 2x WD 36GB Raptors in Raid0 DIY Jet Impingement WB on CPU / Pipecap WB on GPU Shrouded Camaro Heater Core / Swiftech MCP655 Pump Antec P-160 Tower / Seasonic S12 600W PSU MAXIM 6658 Thermal Diode Reader Moderator at OCForums Last edited by Hoot; 03-18-2005 at 10:08 AM. |
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#154 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south
Posts: 392
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Why can't we delete our own messages?
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My Watercooling Stuff Last edited by JSimmons; 03-18-2005 at 12:48 PM. |
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#155 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 383
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![]() Any chance the 1/2" tygon would fit over 3/4" fittings? Would this help flow rates if coupled with an appropriate pump (a mag 5 or an Iwaki 20RLT off the top of my head). :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: |
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#156 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: W. Sussex, UK
Posts: 329
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Why not use a fan better suited to watercooling - if one exists?
More airflow = more noise.. but as much pressure as you want, not much niose? What if a over rated (in torque) motor was used, but with a resonably low rpm (for a fan). Its the airflow and bearings that seems to make all of the niose, not the motor? The motor wouldnt slow down much with restriction.. giving the same airflow but capable of several times more restriction.. = better cooling..? And fans are cheaper than rads (I think!). What about blower style fans instead of axial? Or am I compleatly wrong about current fans not being perfect? Also, is there any link between fan thickness and presure ability? Quote:
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Waterblocks Last edited by |kbn|; 03-23-2005 at 04:20 PM. |
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#157 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Centrif. blowers have a different optimisation point. They also tend to be a lot noisier than axial fans for the same level of air-flow, and they are not exactly things that can be mounted conveniently inside a case.
Keeping in mind that we want sustained air-flow through the radiator that is at least around 43CFM. 43CFM of air-flow has an inherent C/W of 0.04, meaning that a 0.04 C/W is as good as you can get given perfect heat transfer from the radiator into the air flowing through it. If you take a look around the web, you won't find many blowers that can deliver 43CFM against pressure for low noise, where by "low noise", we're talking about ~20dBA noise levels. If you don find one, chances are it's also a fairly large unit, quite costly, and being run at very low speeds. Remember, we're also talking about cost here. Hard to compete against a ultra-low-noise, small, compact, and light $5 fan with a large, heavy, noisier $50 blower, even if you can argue that the blower is better for pure performance. The whole point with making the radiator larger than the 12cm axial fan was to decrease the air-flow resistance to the point that the low-speed low-noise axial fan is operating very high up on its flow curve. i.e. you don't need the pressures provided by a blower to get good performance out of the radiator. Sure, as Hoot say's, if the radiator is now 16x16cm then let's stick a 15 or 16cm fan on it. Yes - you could do that and get better performance, but what I'm talking about here is extracting the most performance possible for the least effort (on the fan's part) and cost and noise. To me, it just feel right that I'm matching a super-quiet, $5, 1W powered fan to a radiator designed to work with its specific traits, that provides cooling performance that matches larger/noisier setups. Yes - of course we can stick a larger/noisier fan on it, but then that's moving away from what I perceive to be the primary design goal. Match the fan/radiator setup with a super-efficient super-quiet 5-10W pump (my other dream - but 15-25W will have to do for now until that day) and we have a setup that kicks anything else in the teeth quite hard in every respect (less power, less noise, low-space, smaller ID tubin, better cooling, moderate cost). Maybe I should move to Europe. ![]() |
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#158 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: W. Sussex, UK
Posts: 329
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![]() I know very little about fan, radiator, and watercooling design.. Im just suggesting that instead of low restriction rads, to achive the same with as-quiet fans, but much higher restriction, same noise, but also same airflow. Where you say effecient, what do you mean? efficent in fan power? noise? airflow? I think noise is most important, then air flow.. I couldnt really care how much power it takes within a resonably amount.. as long as the noise and performance are both good. Would having less restriction, make the airflow less effective? much like a single large channel in a waterblock i less restrictive but compared to many smaller ones or jet impingement it performs a lot worse aswell. Im currently using 2x200mm heatercores, with airflow in series, with a 172mm fan which is not THAT noisy. Its rated for 12w - 24v 0.55A (which is noisy!) but I have been running it at 7-10v (At a guess ~3-6w = 6-12v?) which is much much reduced niose - but the bearing used in it are crap.. with good bearings it would be almost silent - I think. What causes noise in a fan? Like a water pump, I think its not so much the actual motor but instead the bearings and the flow rate. .'. keep flow the same, use the worlds best bearings, but chose a motor that is LOW RPM (dont want high pitch whine - I think below 1000RPM, maybe down to 500?!) also over-rated enough so it will require a LOT more restriction to slow it down than your going to get from a few rads in series. Might want a bit more power but are you going to hear any difference.. I think the ideal rad would be 180*180*100, much like my two rads together... *but* also with a higher FPI - how much will that affect performance assuming constant air flow? I want the most airflow, for the least possible RPM, with the most possible pressure. I think low rpm is important in reducing noise caused by bearings? edit: Done some quick tests and I have observed a few things which should be obvious... 1) air restriction does not slow down fan that much, instead the air bounces back through the fan So all I can think of really, is a really wide fan, with blades curved so that they give the maximuim flow and pressure - allowing the RPM to be dropped a lot. .. Anyway.. time for me to let this thread get back to where it was..
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Waterblocks Last edited by |kbn|; 03-23-2005 at 06:32 PM. |
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#159 | ||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 383
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#160 | ||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Half of the noise generated by a fan/rad combi is from the friction of air passing over the fins. You increase the FPI, the noise level increases also. As either FPI or Core Depth increase, a fan with higher pressure is required to penetrate. Most 120mm fans with higher pressure mean higher noise output due to higher CFM. Higher CFM means more air blown over fins means more frictional noise.
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