My micro-channel concept block - Page 8

Cathar · 10-25-2002, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Les
1)Still playing.
2)Thanks but will not. NDAs can be rather restrictive and already have sums for various configurations

Hmmm, not so much an NDA, as just a friendly, "I trust you not to blab". You could present some results with it if you wanted, but just hold off on stating the actual dimensions anywhere for 2 weeks.

Cathar · 10-26-2002, 04:59 AM

Well, there's some new data about the place. Divi8, who's a member at OCAU picked up a "production" block from me yesterday.

He is seeing a 6C drop over a Silverprop Cyclone 5 w/6.5mm base when running Folding@Home on an 1850MHz/2.00v AthlonXP.

My own results saw a 6C drop for an AthlonXP @ 1925MHz/2.15v between my production block and a Silverprop Cyclone 5 w/6.5mm base. I have the Cyclone 5/3mm based block here and it performs about 0.5C better than the 6.5mm based model for the same test. The C5/3mm block is one that is being sold most predominantly now.

Divi8 is seeing slightly better results than I expected, but he's using a different motherboard.

His thread with his results is here:

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=106836

dream caster · 10-26-2002, 12:35 PM

Les:
what is your block? I've looked several times not only the second page but also the first one and i don't find any reference to it.

koslov · 10-26-2002, 01:22 PM

What is the highest pressure you have tested these blocks to? It seems kinda gutsy having 2 O-rings, just wondering much pressure they can take before they burst.

I am sure a lot of people like myself are eager to run your block with high-pressure pumps, that is if you will ship to the US.

Just curious, how many pre-orders have you gotten so far? Seems like there is a lot of interest in your block, just hope you can make it profitable!

Les · 10-26-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dream caster
Les:
what is your block? I've looked several times not only the second page but also the first one and i don't find any reference to it.

dream caster.
Some photos of Les 's block

Reported:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...5&pagenumber=4
http://www.coolhardware.co.uk/module...121&highlight=

Note. The K7Burn tests are on a different Morgan(and obviously seating) to the Jouni Vuorio's Stabilitity test results. Although the two CPUs are Nominally the same I got large differences in temperatures.Could be for many reasons but ,unless I can raise the dead, will remain an enigma to me.Reported: http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...threadid=67325

Cathar · 10-26-2002, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by koslov
What is the highest pressure you have tested these blocks to? It seems kinda gutsy having 2 O-rings, just wondering much pressure they can take before they burst.

I am sure a lot of people like myself are eager to run your block with high-pressure pumps, that is if you will ship to the US.

Just curious, how many pre-orders have you gotten so far? Seems like there is a lot of interest in your block, just hope you can make it profitable!

You won't have a problem even with high pressure pumps, well less than 100PSI is my best guess. The barbs are sealed on with liquid teflon that's rated for over 1000PSI. As for the O-rings themselves I'm sure BillA could provide some good pointers but everything I've read seems to suggest at least 100PSI. I can only personally test with up to 15PSI. No problems yet.

I've gotten enough pre-orders to warrant the first batch to be made. They'll be ready within a week. I won't be making a profit from this batch, but merely meeting costs. Maybe later...

If anyone wants one, PM me, or send me email via my profile link.

BillA · 10-26-2002, 06:11 PM

re the o-rings:
given the matl thickness and assuming reasonable compression (I don't have any of that info),
the wb should have little difficulty well beyond 300psi

the o-rings are a non-issue (assuming as above)
the threaded barb connections will leak first

nicozeg · 10-26-2002, 08:41 PM

You`ve done a great work with your block Cathar, congratulations!

The next thing you need for the big profit is a name for it and a nice looking webpage!

There`s one question I have:

Your intake nozzle is slightly off center to match hte center of the cpu core, but how can you tell the right mounting side when assembled?

Cathar · 10-26-2002, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nicozeg
The next thing you need for the big profit is a name for it and a nice looking webpage!

There`s one question I have:

Your intake nozzle is slightly off center to match hte center of the cpu core, but how can you tell the right mounting side when assembled?

I'm going to stamp an A on the edge of the nozzle plate that should be at the 'mounting arm' side of the socket.

Failing that, look down the central barb and see which way the nozzle is and mount it with the nozzle furthest away from the socket A mounting arm.

I have a name "Little River - Rapids". A web-page is on the way.

Les · 10-30-2002, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
It's a real shame that we can't bring the impact of the impingement cooling into the mix with your predictions Les.

Silly me.
Had intentions of look-see at Impingement on my 6mm bped block
Have only just realised that I am probably on the upper bp thickness limit to get any improvement from impingement cooling.
Playing with data from http://www.electronics-cooling.com/h...01_may_a2.html (Ta Bill) and http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~eclweb/jet_benchmark/ (Ta g-f) suggests:
Speculative Performance
Intention 3mm noozle .Impingement Cooling Diameter 15mm (max) with h ~ 100,000W/m*m*c for 200LPH flow.

Think I need a thinner bit of Copper.

Cathar · 10-30-2002, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Les
Think I need a thinner bit of Copper.

Keep dropping that thickness down Les.

6mm is WAY too thick.

Don't stop with whole millimetres either. The devil truly is in the fine details here.

Les · 10-30-2002, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
Keep dropping that thickness down Les.

6mm is WAY too thick.

Don't stop with whole millimetres either. The devil truly is in the fine details here.

I am somewhat surprised to see improvements below 1mm
As a rough guide I still rely on the Christmas tree.
I find it difficult to envisage Heat Transfer Coeffs (to the bp) from 1mm spaced fins exceeding ~ 100kW/m*m**k unless velocties exceed ~10m/s. Eg

.
For my own purposes I will probably use any thinner piece of copper that falls in my hands. I am only interested in "look-see" and have no developement objective.

Alchemy · 10-30-2002, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
I've highlighted the error in your reasoning for you. Flow rate (which is more accurately defined as "volume per unit time") is always linear through a system unless we are somehow compressing the liquid, which for the ~1-10PSI that people use in computer water-cooling systems simply is not happening.

Not just linear. Equal.

Also, referring to an earlier post, pressure drop is proportional to velocity squared only when comparing points on either side of a pump, for example. It doesn't tell you anything about form friction - that is, friction or pressure drop caused by fittings.

Pressure drop caused by fittings in turbulent flow can best be described through an empirical correlation - there's no direct mathematical relationship between pressure drop and velocity.

In laminar flow, pressure drop due to fittings is proportional to velocity.

People keep tossing the word "thermodynamics" out there. This is entirely chemical engineering transport - heat transfer and fluid flow. I haven't seen any thermodynamics issues relating to this stuff.

Alchemy

mfpmax · 10-31-2002, 01:39 PM

http://www.benchtest.com/wcooler2.html

I found your blocks bigger older brother.

Cathar · 11-03-2002, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mfpmax
http://www.benchtest.com/wcooler2.html

I found your blocks bigger older brother.

...with 1/8" wide channels and walls. *yech*

mfpmax · 11-03-2002, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
...with 1/8" wide channels and walls. *yech*

Have you ever seen the Benchtest site? I used to read it back in the day...like 99/2000. I decided to check it and looked through the blocks and found that...and was like "That is like Cathar's block, but much bigger and for a Slot 1 CPU".

Cathar · 11-03-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mfpmax
Have you ever seen the Benchtest site? I used to read it back in the day...like 99/2000. I decided to check it and looked through the blocks and found that...and was like "That is like Cathar's block, but much bigger and for a Slot 1 CPU".

Never really seen it much, but did know of it. Didn't really get into this PC thing until around late '99.

The micro-channel concept is truly ancient by modern computing standards. This stuff has been around for 20+ years.

Where my block differs to many of the older designs is that it combines jet impingement with micro-channel and a specific range of base-plate thicknesses, while using the micro-channel walls as an essential part of the cooling process from the jet impingement flows, and is focussed on cooling < 15x15mm sized CPU dies (P4 is 11.3 x 11.3, Athlon XP is 11.6 x 11.1).

Les · 11-03-2002, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Les
Silly me.
Had intentions of look-see at Impingement on my 6mm bped block
Have only just realised that I am probably on the upper bp thickness limit to get any improvement from impingement cooling.
Playing with data from http://www.electronics-cooling.com/h...01_may_a2.html (Ta Bill) and http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~eclweb/jet_benchmark/ (Ta g-f) suggests:
Speculative Performance
Intention 3mm noozle .Impingement Cooling Diameter 15mm (max) with h ~ 100,000W/m*m*c for 200LPH flow.

Think I need a thinner bit of Copper.

When you actually do the sums* (add the "Jet Impingement" and the "Wall Jet" contributions) there is a possibly detectable difference even at 6mm:-

There is a predicted difference of possible more than 0.06C/W between the "Side-to-side" and the "Central Inlet" with h=100kw/m*m*c in the JIA and a 6mm bp
For a 70W Duron(50W Real) a 0.06C/W should be realised as ~ 3c which may or may not be detectable.
Edit: Added curve for the perhaps more realistic h=50kw/m*m*c in the Jet Impingement Area.

* Sums:-
Total Cooling = (Cooling from Jet) + (Cooling from Wall Jet) = Qj + Qw = C(Wj/Cj) + C(Ww/Cw)
Total C/W = 1/[(Wj/Cj) + (Ww/Cw)]

For a 15x15mm Jet Impingement Area(JIA), 6mm bp,and 200LPH through 3mm nozzle(h=100kw/m*m*c)
(Wj/Cj) is reciprical of "15x15mm Impinge Area" C/W value at 100kW/m*m**c on graph.
(Ww/Cw) taken as the difference betwwen recipricals of (50x50mm) and (15x15mm) C/W s at 100LPH(split flow).
(Wj/Cj) = 1/0.135 = 7.407
(Ww/Cw) = 1/0.199 - 1/1.06 = 5.025 - 0.943 = 4.082
Total C/W = 1/[(Wj/Cj) + (Ww/Cw) = 1/[7.407 + 4.082] = 1/11.489 = 0.087

For 12x12mm JIA,6mm bp,and 200LPH through 3mm nozzle(h=100kw/m*m*c):-
(Wj/Cj) = 1/0.182 = 5.495
(Ww/Cw) = 1/0.199 - 1/1.62 = 5.025 - 0.617 = 4.408
Total C/W = 1/[(Wj/Cj) + (Ww/Cw)] = 1/[5.495 + 4.408] = 1/9.903 = 0.101

Repeat for various bp thicknesses with a JAI Heat Trans Coeff (h)of 100kw/m*m*c.

Ion · 11-06-2002, 09:36 AM

If you for some reason had to do this block in aluminium, how much would that lower the performance? I mean the original design now, not nozzled.
Could you see it on one of those nice graphs, and would you make the base even thinner?
Thanks.

Cathar · 11-06-2002, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion
If you for some reason had to do this block in aluminium, how much would that lower the performance? I mean the original design now, not nozzled.
Could you see it on one of those nice graphs, and would you make the base even thinner?
Thanks.

According to my sims, an ally block would be worse by around 2.5-3C no matter if it were nozzled or not for a ~80W heat load.

The production block that's currently selling differs quite substantially (relatively speaking) in dimensions from the prototype that's shown here. The base is even thinner and the channel heights are changed.

Les's graphs are an excellent resource. I'm not quite sure what's going on though. I stepped through a range of base thicknesses with real blocks in 0.1mm steps, and while I don't have the most accurate test equipment in the world I was able to see significantly more optimistic results for thin bases than what Les is predicting.

I don't know. Maybe `h' is higher in reality by around 20% or so. I imagine it gets pretty hard to model "furniture" in an impingement scenario.

10-31-2002, 01:39 PM	#154
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	http://www.benchtest.com/wcooler2.html I found your blocks bigger older brother. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-26-2002, 04:59 AM	#142
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Well, there's some new data about the place. Divi8, who's a member at OCAU picked up a "production" block from me yesterday. He is seeing a 6C drop over a Silverprop Cyclone 5 w/6.5mm base when running Folding@Home on an 1850MHz/2.00v AthlonXP. My own results saw a 6C drop for an AthlonXP @ 1925MHz/2.15v between my production block and a Silverprop Cyclone 5 w/6.5mm base. I have the Cyclone 5/3mm based block here and it performs about 0.5C better than the 6.5mm based model for the same test. The C5/3mm block is one that is being sold most predominantly now. Divi8 is seeing slightly better results than I expected, but he's using a different motherboard. His thread with his results is here: http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=106836

10-26-2002, 12:35 PM	#143
dream caster Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atacama desert, Chile Posts: 43	Les: what is your block? I've looked several times not only the second page but also the first one and i don't find any reference to it.

10-26-2002, 01:22 PM	#144
koslov Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Posts: 264	What is the highest pressure you have tested these blocks to? It seems kinda gutsy having 2 O-rings, just wondering much pressure they can take before they burst. I am sure a lot of people like myself are eager to run your block with high-pressure pumps, that is if you will ship to the US. Just curious, how many pre-orders have you gotten so far? Seems like there is a lot of interest in your block, just hope you can make it profitable!

10-26-2002, 06:11 PM	#147
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	re the o-rings: given the matl thickness and assuming reasonable compression (I don't have any of that info), the wb should have little difficulty well beyond 300psi the o-rings are a non-issue (assuming as above) the threaded barb connections will leak first

10-26-2002, 08:41 PM	#148
nicozeg Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 403	You`ve done a great work with your block Cathar, congratulations! The next thing you need for the big profit is a name for it and a nice looking webpage! There`s one question I have: Your intake nozzle is slightly off center to match hte center of the cpu core, but how can you tell the right mounting side when assembled?

11-06-2002, 09:36 AM	#159
Ion Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 66	If you for some reason had to do this block in aluminium, how much would that lower the performance? I mean the original design now, not nozzled. Could you see it on one of those nice graphs, and would you make the base even thinner? Thanks.

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