No competition, why only HWlabs?

[BillA]

slicey
a reasonable answer
and as I suspected it had to be, huge

not a criticism, just observing - different solutions have their own consequences
- a far better idea than the 'bong' ever was (and far harder to implement)

[Marci]

/me whips out the lassoo and hoists things back into shape...

Extrapolated the angles for 25 deg and 45 deg to see what space saving it would give with intention of posting the above and asking for airflow calcs etc to assess suitability...

Will get 30 deg / 40mm shroud made up! Ta d00d!

Just been notified shroud will be on my desk tomorrow! There is a downside however.
I'm taking some time off to go racing - first round of 2005 British Championship MiniMoto Sidecars is this weekend, so I'll be back Monday/Tues next week with pix etc (of the rad / shroud)... assuming I don't get hospitalised in the process...!

[eander315]

This is seriously off-topic, but that minimoto sidecar racing looks seriously dangerous and FUN! Good luck at the races

[bobkoure]

On-the-track racing is actually pretty safe, so long as there aren't novices out there with you (increases the probability of getting run over if you come off - novices tend to "fixate" on "the interesting thing", which, if you're sliding along in your leathers, is you).
Of course, you can get unlucky - hand stuck under sliding bike, high side, tumble during slide (I broke a collarbone this way - my own fault, though...).

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

I think there may be some easy/cheap things that could be done.
For instance, much of the annoying noise is higher frequencies. A simple 1" of sound absorbent foam can attenuate frequencies down to 7KHz or so (trick is to have air friction a half wavelength away from a reflecting surface). So... if you're set up in the "typical" pull style, put a baffle over the rad opening, spaced, say, so there's a 1" space between the foam and the rad - and put a 1" foam panel on the baffle. Higher frequencies are pretty "beamy" and won't go around the baffle - and you're attenuating whatever might reflect out.


Marci says that a good portion of the noise is generated by air passing through a radiator. At low air velocity, I'm not sure this is true - and if most of the noise is from the fan(s), then maybe just putting the fan at right angles to the radiator fins may provide a good deal of attenuation.
.

Thanks for a interesting idea.

I expect to have to do some tuning of any such case I make. Your baffle directly inline with the opening of the core is a differant approach to what I've had in mind. I see your point in attenuation of the noise's pitch. Proper spacing for a balance of free enough air flow while still able to cut down the pitch of the noise would be the trick. Thank's agian.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

On-the-track racing is actually pretty safe, so long as there aren't novices out there with you (increases the probability of getting run over if you come off - novices tend to "fixate" on "the interesting thing", which, if you're sliding along in your leathers, is you).
Of course, you can get unlucky - hand stuck under sliding bike, high side, tumble during slide (I broke a collarbone this way - my own fault, though...).

Glad to hear it's safe......LOL!

[Voodoo Rufus]

In response to Cathar's comments about silent fans, the Deltas do not fit the "totally inaudible" ranking. I've got a pair of the 70cfm 120x38 tri-blades. They're rated for 4 volt operation, and I've got my 2 operating just above their stalling speed as my only case intakes and exhasts. Since the rpm sensors fail around 650rpm about, I'd guess these are going around 600. There is no noticable bearing noise but the fan motors do tick. If your room is closed and very quiet, then you may hear these from from 6 feet or closer. If you've got an open window ambient noise will easily drown them out.

They may not be silent, but when taken to their lower voltage limits, they are VERY quiet. To me they rank with Panaflo L1A 120s when undervolted.

[Marci]

Old Shroud vs New Shroud - quite a saving in the space department


Better shot showing fin spacing


Profile shot of single Rev2 shroud fitted to one side


Shroud without fan


So, that's the 40mm shroud done and dusted and all fitted to the mountainmods testrig.

[Marci]

This is seriously off-topic, but that minimoto sidecar racing looks seriously dangerous and FUN! Good luck at the races

Back, in one piece, no damages, 1x Trophy, 4 sessions, 2nd on the grid after qualifying with 1:09 vs 1:07 iirc, 1st place in all sessions, 25 points per 1st per session = Full 100 Championship Points (max achievable in a single round), and now leading our class (4-Stroke) after Round1.

[Ruiner]

How should this rad compare performance wise with the black ice pro 2?
Off hand, I would think the main difference is packaging (squarish vs. rectangle, depending on case design), with overall finned area being pretty close.
The BIP is dual pass, so that's one slight disadvantage for it.

For a given airflow, you could run paired fans on the BIP slower than the single on this one, unless your deeper shroud would make up for that as well.

Any thoughts?

[Marci]

The design goal is best performance with a SINGLE silent fan... as efficient as possible. A single fan'd rad running in silence that can match a dual fan'd rad in silence is obviously more efficient. Read the whole thread as am sure your questions are already answered. This is all about efficiency, performance and silence. Designed for the job from the start.

Cathar will be able to answer more appropriately. The specs of this job are his baby... I just realise them...

[Delirious]

Can't wait to see the results u get from testing it.

What radiators/heatcores exactly will u be testing it against?

[DaveX]

Keep up the good work Would definitely be awesome to have an almost silent computer and heavily overclocked components.

[Marci]

Don't kow til testing begins... altho realistically it wouldn't be a "vs" kind of test. It would be a standalone analysis in the same vein as BillA's review of the original HE series.

[pHaestus]

Who is now producing test results with absolute values like Bill did?

[BillA]

in theory JoeC could, but it will never happen due to the time needed to work through a reproducable test setup
-> nothing comes close to the effort required to achieve reproducability

needed is a wind tunnel and at $15K, farther yet from the grasp of the average guy
(but none here are average, lol - ok, who has a cal'ed wind tunnel ?)

[aaronspink]

Originally Posted by unregistered

in theory JoeC could, but it will never happen due to the time needed to work through a reproducable test setup
-> nothing comes close to the effort required to achieve reproducability

needed is a wind tunnel and at $15K, farther yet from the grasp of the average guy
(but none here are average, lol - ok, who has a cal'ed wind tunnel ?)

Hmm, most universities. There is a pretty cool super sonic one at Moffet Field. I wonder well a radiator cools in a supersonic enviroment.

[maxSaleen]

Marci: any chance we will ever see this product made available to consumers? If so when (if your allowed to answer that)? Great job so far.

[Marci]

Well, if consumers want to see testing on it first, you'll have to wait til we've found someone to test it etc. If you're willing to buy it on a blind leap of faith then it'll be out sooner. Personally I'd rather have some figures to back up the claims before I put it out for retail sale, but it's looking like that's not gonna happen due to a lack of anyone who knows about how to test radiators who's available to do it.

So what do folks think? Just release it and see how it fares in the market place, or get it reviewed and tested first THEN release it?

The WHEN of it all - hell, could have em on the shelf within 3 days if we had to. Only delays at the mo are purely trying to source someone to test it properly. Production are just waiting for me to say the word...

Admittedly, if we just release it then reviews will naturally follow in time as they spread thru the marketplace, but not one of those will be a useful review in the eyes of the guys here... and not one of those reviews would be quantifiable / reproduceable etc etc in the traditional procooling way... they'd just be "we had a PC with x waterkit and x rad. It ran at x under full load. We swapped out the rad for this one and didn't change anything else and CPU ran at y under load", which as we all know means bugger all to anyone who's bothered about their watercooling, and means everything to those who have a pocket full of cash and just want someone no-one else has got.

[BillA]

Marci
in a basement which will be a fairly good sink with 'constant' air temp, just run a controlled A to B test
not the end of the world, hell - if no one wants to test ?
but unless the heat source is BIG (say some TECs ?), you will be hard pressed to see much difference
- but since most buy rads expressly for the overcapacity, . . . .

[Marci]

Hehe.... I no longer have the luxury of a basement in the new house, and nor does anyone I know at the moment... however, the workshop I use over in Castleford has a painting booth that is always a fairly constant temp, and always bitter cold if no spraying has gone on recently... will have words with the relevant folks...

Heatsource.... well I could produce a staggering heatload if I needed to just over-ride the thermostat in an electric cooker and then undervolt a ring element should work (?) - just can't pin a figure on that heatload unless someone knows the maths to work it back from the original wattage rating of the element vs 240v pulled down to 100v...

[BillA]

I would scrounge some TECs, be more relevant

[Marci]

TECs definitely ain't a problem - got boxes n boxes n boxes of em upstairs (226w 12v, 172w 24v, 169w 12v, 120w 12v, 80w 12v)... in fact, should have a full Swifty Kit somewhere of 226w TEC and Meanwell s320-12 with bay mounting bracket and Rev2 relay... along with a few old MCW5002-T blocks... think I've still got my MCW462-UHT as well! *heads off to find the oldest tattiest looking box that I'll have lobbed em in many years ago*

So, the plan...

Meanwell s320-12
226w TEC
DD Maze4 A64 (Swifty blocks I have don't have A64 wings)
MCP600
PA160

Now, just need Cathar to sort me out those fans... my supplier hasn't got stock in yet...
and need the Prototype PA160 to return from the LAN that it just went to in the demo rig...

Monitor coolant in and out temps 2" from radiator inlet / outlet, and Air in and out temps 2" from core surface... and temp of waterblock copper base / TEC hotside... and room ambient temps

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Marci

The design goal is best performance with a SINGLE silent fan... as efficient as possible.

Maybe we need some sort of new term for efficient-for-noise...(?) Maybe there is one I don't know about?
Then there's efficient-for-available-space . There are lots of mid-tower cases that have room for something this size in the lower front. If you want to install the BIP II or BIX II there, there's, hmmm... the Genie. Any others?

As a "you probably thought about this already" kind of suggestion, maybe, once this is a shipping product, it might make sense to also provide a stick-on template with screw holes and rectangular opening already cut out. That'd let semi-new'bs figure out where to mount the rad, and, after drilling just one or two holes, be able to test-mount the rad/shroud/fan inside the case - and if they'd figured wrong, they'd just have a screw hole or two in the wrong place(es) rather than a big rectangular hole. Shouldn't add to cost of goods much.

[aaronspink]

Originally Posted by Marci

T

Now, just need Cathar to sort me out those fans... my supplier hasn't got stock in yet...

For fans...

The Nexus 120mm would be a good bet. A fairly known quantity among the silent/low-noise circles.
Pabst 4412FGL or 4312NL/NGL
AcoustiFan 120 mm fan
Enermax / Compuman / Globe Fan UC-12FAB / B1202412M-3M

These are all the top rated fans from SilentPCReview. As such these would most likely the the fans the silent crowd would use.