C-Systems 12 VDC Pump review...

[Hotseat]

Sorry guys, very busy these days on the industrial side, little time to spend in here.

If you have issue, email support@c-systems.ca, they will help you.

Answers
- Yes two reserves are better, less restriction.
-MKII flow is about 2-5% higher, just some small changes
-Parrallel is suggested because we have no long term data on the effect of high pressure load which can occur in series (5psi +). The pumps have only long term testing on low restriction loads.

Hope this helps.

[threeputt]

But you do realize that 2 pumps in parallel offers no redundancy and can leave the system with no coolant flow in case of one pump failure... I just think it's a bad idea to recommend those 3 configurations... Although I'm sure that everyone buying these are setting them up in series... Also, I hope hooking these up in series does not fall under "improper use" to void the warranty...

[DryFire]

Maybe place one pump before and after the heatercore? or the res (if you use one).

Hotseat how different to the MKII's look?
And do you have any idea when we will be able to buy them?
If you can't disclose that then can you say what percentage of OEM orders have been filled?

Lastly do you have plans to introduce any other products (i saw you mention something new in passing a while ago)?

(I know you're busy but I can wait).

[Hotseat]

threeputt, if you look at the users guide, there is no indication of a series configuration.

Will "likely" be ok.... just no data yet. Right now doesn't state it's improper use, but if you set 8 of these up in a row, them completely block off flow, your just asking for it.

With MKII you can use frequency monitoring- to check pump, however be sure your fan port can handle up to 6 watts per pump. If your concerned, you can wire power direct, and tap off frequency gen line (yellow one).

We are updating the user guides this week for the MKII.

Yes, new products OTW, first we will be shipping a cheap "rebuild" kit for the MKII (should be around 10-12$), which replaces the whole center section (motor, impeller,seal)

The reason for this is simple....people want to experiment
Get alot of "what if I try this" emails, for which we often honestly tell them, "we don't know, and therefore can not warrent your idea". This way they can try, and if there is a problem, they have a back up and only take a few minutes to install.

**Note you can not order 100's of these for your own case, it's meant to help our current customers.

As for additional products, not sure I can discuss it openly, so I shouldn't.

YES most OEM orders have been shipped, or soon will be

MKII looks like MKI, about 0.100" bigger.
You can check WEB site if you wish.

As for when / who has stock, can't say, thats up to them.

As for C-Systems, production has increased considerable, however there are big happens with parent company (AVT International) which will likely see a seperation, so don't freak out if you read something somewhere, this should not effect you guys.

Sorry, will be away for awhile as stated earlier, hope this helps.

[Tos]

Ok, I'll be the bastard that throws the 1st rock at you guys from C-Systems ..

I've just got hold of NPT metal fittings from Dariusz - nickel plated, 1/4 NPT, innovalike 8/10 ons - ( I was part of the french grouped order by Melpheos ), and yesterday I tried to fit them on my pumps. the 1st pump went alright, but the 2d gave me some trouble : fitting the outlet went flawless - suprizingly I had no issue whatsoever to screw the bastard in ... - but the inlet was more of an issue : the fitting WOULDN'T even start to get in the thread. I had to force its way through a bit, then did the 1/4th technique for a turn, then proceeded till I got some resistance.
When I got the fitting out to tape it with teflon, I noticed the thread was totally destroyed ( I'll post pics later )

I guess I'll have to rethread the inlet, but this time, I'll go for 3/8" BSP cyl threading.

I'm not blaming you guys or anything - well, just a bit then ... - I know I behaved like a brute. but still, your threads are total crap - excuse the wording but I can't think of any more appropriate word for my feelings. Also - and I should have been smarter - the same pump gave me trouble when I tried to fit the provided 1/4 plastic fitting on the inlet.

This said, I'm gonna see if I can save the pump I've just destroyed ( gee, why didn't you guys think about threading the pumps with EUROPEAN standards ... you know, BSP and all that crap ? )

edit : I hate beta testing stuff ...

[Hotseat]

^ Throwing it back.... there NPTF, clearly states so.
Even so, most NPT should fit.

Email support, they should have an extra G 1/4 part we can mail you lying around somewhere

Oh and welcome to NPT land.

** Hotel TV sucks !!

[BillA]

plug and ring gages are the inspection tools to determine if the threads are 'in spec', or not

'out of spec' threads may be made for a variety of reasons, indeed the excessive engagement of thin plastic threaded male pins is a problem
- but IF the mfgr chooses to make such, compatibility with good threads may then become the problem

Dan
"Oh and welcome to NPT land." - by this you mean what ?
that you call a thread NPTF is not the same as stating that the threads are 'in spec' - when clearly they are not
(Dan - I used to perform API thread insp on tooling and components, I do not need to see the thread to understand that if it cannot be started it is wrong. I trust you are not implying that the barbs that do not fit are off spec.)


a difference between C-Systems and Swiftech's engn/QC seems apparent

EDIT: NPT vs. NPTF
a description here

[Hansfragger]

Originally Posted by unregistered

plug and ring gages are the inspection tools to determine if the threads are 'in spec', or not

'out of spec' threads may be made for a variety of reasons, indeed the excessive engagement of thin plastic threaded male pins is a problem
- but IF the mfgr chooses to make such, compatibility with good threads may then become the problem

Dan
"Oh and welcome to NPT land." - by this you mean what ?
that you call a thread NPTF is not the same as stating that the threads are 'in spec' - when clearly they are not
(Dan - I used to perform API thread insp on tooling and components, I do not need to see the thread to understand that if it cannot be started it is wrong. I trust you are not implying that the barbs that do not fit are off spec.)


a difference between C-Systems and Swiftech's engn/QC seems apparent

EDIT: NPT vs. NPTF
a description here

Thanks for the great link. I was trying to order a 1/4 NPT tap from Grainger and they didn't know the difference between NPT and NPTF-thought it was National Pipe Thread Fine.

[Tos]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

^ Throwing it back.... there NPTF, clearly states so.
Even so, most NPT should fit.

Email support, they should have an extra G 1/4 part we can mail you lying around somewhere

Oh and welcome to NPT land.

** Hotel TV sucks !!

Quote from C-Systems' website :

Adaptable:
The CSP750 inlet and outlet ports are CNC helical
machined to ¼ NPT sharp. This provides for the
use of both plastic and metal tubing adaptors,
typically without the need of additional sealing.
¼ NPT adaptors are easily found for most hard
and soft tubing allowing the CSP750 to be used
in any application.

Anyway, I'm somewhat at fault, so I can't really complain

btw, do you really think they'd send me a 1/4G replacement for free ?

[BillA]

I'm thinking Dan would really like this problem to disappear

"^ Throwing it back...." is not good customer relations, more like a hip shot from a wise ass

[Tos]

unregistered -> you need to read between the lines, it's started as a "semi-amused" rant from my part, as I kinda screwed up ( ok, I TOTALLY screwed up ) and Dan simply followed my lead .. that's it, period.

If you wanna put words in his mouth, I won't ( actually, can't ) stop you, but that won't make you look smarter

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

The thread area is NOT anodized, we place grease on them to protect them from the acid.

If we did not, the threads would not be sharp, as the acid causes them to round off or build, and this will cause problems with sealing plastic fittings.

The order was place with plastic fittings, and we opitimized for the fittings we provided.

Yes, there is a taper, if there was not, the fitting would not get tite.

You guys should know, NPT standard is NOT followed very well. Try placing 4 different brand / material 1/4 NPT fittings side by side, and you will see the starting diameter varies.

At first we designed for metal fittings, but people where forcing plastic fittings all the way into the impeller (no joke). The feedback we had, showed 90% of the people where using plastic fittings, so we cut back a bit, to have best fit with plastic.

If you have a metal fitting, do as suggested above, and run it in and out a bit.

Most of the confusion comes from our European customers, which will no longer be a problem, as we now ship to Europe with 1/4 G straight ports


** AGIACOBBI, you worked on injection molds with NPT threads, could use some advise on three peice mold with interior NPT threads. Having a bitch finding an example

Tos
the thread 'issue' started before your post, and I use quotes as appropriate
go back and read Dan's responses
he has chosen to make non-standard threads, its his problem

but when he starts to say that NPT can be anything, then I - speaking for Swiftech - will correct him
(because this is a technically oriented forum)

-> I do suggest to you that an investigation into materials compatability would be productive.
The info has been posted here and on OCAU; Dan has made a BAD recommendation that is going to result in failures down the road.
But, as with the threads, these are Dan's choices for C-Systems and their customers.

It is an interesting ethical/commercial dilemma:
If I (Bill Adams) see something incorrect should I say so ?
If I (VP Engn at Swiftech) see something incorrect should I say so ?
And what is my 'responsibility' to my many friends here ?

I do not have a clear answer in my head as to the 'best' resolution of these conflicts.

[Tos]

I can understand the feeling - and apologise for my reply ( as I am an idiot with little engineering background ^^; )

[Hotseat]

Bill as an engineer, your sure not acting as one.... and I will not trade insults with you

Tos, the reason we describe them as "sharp" is no one seems to understand what NPTF was. We had several emails asking what it means.

The threads are standard, however MANY NPT fittings are not.
The starting size of the thread varies among fittings, you need only purchase a few different ones to see this.

Typically this is not an issue in industry, and NPT female ports are often "over cut", to correct for the problem.

If we where to do this, it would cause an increase in pump size, or allow people to force into the impeller.

I suspect you just have a bad cut, although there CNC thread milled on an extremely acurate machine, many things can happen in manufacturing. The insert could be off, the part could slip, etc.

If this continues to be an issue, we will just increase to pump size, and overcut for NPT. G 1/4 will not have this issue, as thread depth / size is constant. Much better for this app.

**Note AVT makes thousands of ABS blocks a month, each of which has 10 thread milled ports, we have some idea how to do it

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

Most of the confusion comes from our European customers, which will no longer be a problem, as we now ship to Europe with 1/4 G straight ports

hmm - i presume you mean european OEMs here??

[dariusz]

i would like to add some informations :
1/ melpheos compared the diameter of the inlet of some pumps, the larger diamater varies from 12mm on 1 pump to 11mm on ther other, the result is that even the plastic fittings shipped with the pumps cant be inserted:


here is a tentative of insertion of a NPT-BSP adaptater



2/ here are the pictures of the interior an d outlet of some pumps :







3/all the blue pumps we recieved had scratches on the exterior .

[Hotseat]

Wow, that black one looks like it missing a cut, clearly something wrong.

Email support, they will replace that no question !
I'll email them myself as well.

I can only guess that the operator loaded the old MarkI program at this point.
The "scratches" are result of de-burring, will not effect performance. That lip needs to be cut to stop anodizing growth.

Thanks for the pic's, clearly shows there was some bad cuts, as I suspected, and not a NPT size issue as people are speculating here.

**Please note I'm on the road, and will be for sometime. If you have problems, just email support, I believe you will find them very responsive an helpful

[Tos]

Just posting a followup, my problem seems to be pretty similar to the 2d pic ( Black pump with BSP adapter - even though I had a NPT fitting )

I'll post a pic to show my pump's inlet tomorrow morning - GMT timezone, in other words, in 6-8 hours

[Hotseat]

Not glad to hear we sent some bad units out Tos, but good too find what your issue is.

Yes, they will send you a new housing, I think you emailed support already.

[Tos]

I haven't personnaly emailed support, melpheos seems to have taken care of that for all of us that are in some trouble

( oh, and if you could find another 1/4G top for my 2d pump, I'd be real happy - I'd like to avoid mixing NPT & BSP )

edit : it's not THAT of a problem for me, since I have much to do till my next rig/casemod is completed, hence the pumps are waiting ... on the other side, I'm woried more of these issues might arise among other ppl from our grouped order. We'll keep you posted though

[melpheos]

Originally Posted by Tos

I haven't personnaly emailed support, melpheos seems to have taken care of that for all of us that are in some trouble

( oh, and if you could find another 1/4G top for my 2d pump, I'd be real happy - I'd like to avoid mixing NPT & BSP )

edit : it's not THAT of a problem for me, since I have much to do till my next rig/casemod is completed, hence the pumps are waiting ... on the other side, I'm woried more of these issues might arise among other ppl from our grouped order. We'll keep you posted though

I will not contact the support myself as my pumps have no problems whatsoever

Users will.

I will just contact all the users and have them contact support if needed (bad threading on inlet port)

As Dan allready mentionned this problems might occur only on the inlet port as this one has to be shortened in order to prevent user to insert their connector down to the impeler (preventing the unit to work properly)

[agiacobbi]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

Not glad to hear we sent some bad units out Tos, but good too find what your issue is.

Yes, they will send you a new housing, I think you emailed support already.

There probably all over, the bad threads, mine sure are, cant even start a couple, the others are all crooked. Haven't been able to use either pump

[Hotseat]

^Then please send it back, we can't fix an issue till we see it. I have been checking pumps coming off the machine personal when I can, and have not found one yet


BTW guys Neil has MKII stock, not much, so get early.

www.bigfootcomputers.com

And no port issues reported.

**Out of contact for at least a week, but will be talking too office daily to see if they find out whats happening.

[Tos]

I've emailed support, will get a replacement soon

thumbs up for Dan's customer service, no questions asked

edit :
here's a pic of my pump's inlet after the disaster ^^;

[agiacobbi]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

^Then please send it back, we can't fix an issue till we see it. I have been checking pumps coming off the machine personal when I can, and have not found one yet


BTW guys Neil has MKII stock, not much, so get early.

www.bigfootcomputers.com

And no port issues reported.

**Out of contact for at least a week, but will be talking too office daily to see if they find out whats happening.

I Would be glad to but where, the place I got it, waited for over 2 months to get them, or to you.