A challenge!

[pHaestus]

Apparently the choice of tubing size in a water cooling loop is a contentious global issue. Contentious enough to spawn many personal attacks against me, the readers of this site, and even our wives! I could stoop to the same level and make comments about the "small tubes" of our European counterparts, but I thought that perhaps it would be more appropriate to instead channel my efforts in a more useful way:

I am issuing a formal challenge to the "low flow is better" and "small tubing is better" crowd one and all. I will be happy to do a point/counterpoint article that is hosted on both Procooling and your website of choice where you and yours can expound the virtues of using small tubing and how it improves cooling performance and I will explain my position and rebut where needed. It must, of course, remain civil and focus on FACTS and I will do my best to explain the relevant theory and correct any misconceptions/inaccuracies that may be presented.

Let me know. My first installment would be called "Cool, Quiet, Compact: Choose any two". I can also provide a nice historical perspective on how the typical American water cooling system ended up where it is today.

[pHaestus]

In case the other interested parties don't read this site due to our color scheme or something

[Joe]

along with the small hose issues in europe, it seems they have bad eye's also... that one guy was funny as hell talking about how hard it was to look at the procooling site

[Myth]

I live in Denmark, where this topic and results from Watercoolingplanet is brought up almost everytime someone mentions watercooling. Since i started following the threads at this site, i often refer to threads or the in my opinion fantastic test results. Almost every time people agree that the "US" way gives better results, But in many cases people chose the more available german style stuff since Dangerden and Swiftech is harder to get, and more expensive.. I guess what we really need overhere are more companies selling better products since most agree that a Cascade is better than eg. Alphacool BUT the Cascade is twice as expensive and hard to get.

[knipex]

Guys

I thought we had an end to inter forum bashing.

A genuine comparison of the pro's and cons of low flow and or smaller tubing is something I would be very interested in.

But forum bashing doesn't belong on places like this or wizd. No one not even the origional poster said they hated you. As a matter of fact the origional poster even said that you were a decent guy. No one even mentioned you wife.

Can it please end now...

Also we have never stated or pushed the fact that small tubing or low flow is "better" just that it has its advantages.

All of the following quotes come directly from wizd.

High flow has the peformance edge but only if the loop is designed carefully and the components all complement each other. Due to the nature of the components its easy to constrict your flow which can adversly affect your performance.

avoid low flow systems with insufficient cooling as they are called kettles

Difference in temps on an American and European watercooling systems are minimal.. At max you are looking at a degree possibly two.

I had one too (1/2 inch), but I changed so I could harness the beauty of some of Aqua Computers "stuff". I can still overclock as well, my RAM is only PC-3500, so I get the same OC on water from either schools. Star is right, but if you like what you've got, keep it, if you want to try some German stuff, go for it. All watercooling is good, and it's up to you to choose the one you want.

The first two are taken from the infamous thread. The rest from various posts.

We have our fanboys but you also have yours.

[greenman100]

lets do it

civil is key

[pHaestus]

Well from my standpoint the size of hose is a sort of non-issue. It is, to me, one of the design parameters that affect pump choice and not much more. The "American" approach to systems evolved around what was readily available for DIYers and mostly empirical observations. My exposure to the "German" approach is limited to when the Innovatek kits were released a couple of years ago. Even now I am mostly familiar with European mfgrs as providing "complete kits" where US water coolers treat mfgrs more as "wb makers" and assemble the rest themselves from auto stores and pet shops. There is good and bad with this; a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment come from DIY but presumably an engineer can assemble an optimized matched kit that gets the most out of all the components chosen.

[pHaestus]

There were several posts that began with "I hate Procooling"

Someone said that with our outlooks we probably all had 300 lb wives who could cook and clean well.

Crawfishing already? Post your merits of low flow to performance; you know where to find me

[greenman100]

optimized kit?

here's what to optimize:

maximize flowrate (air and water)
maximize surface area of radiator
employ efficent heat transfer (turbulent) designs in waterblock and heatercore

seems simple to me, if you disagree, go take some college level physics.

seems to me a low-flow system cannot match a similarly priced high-flow, unless "looks" are accounted for

would be happy to eat my words

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by knipex

Guys

I thaugh we had an end to inter forum bashing.

A genuine comparison of the pro's and cons of low flow and or smaller tubing is something I would be very interested in but forum bashing doesn't belong on places like this or wizd.

Touchy.

Anyway;
This will be hard to do pH. One group will always think the other is biased no matter the empirical evidence. I know your not biased and you know your not biased but people like Mr Poo (which seem to be widely available in Euro countries) will always claim bias because your work is better than theirs "so you must work for DD and be biased". Even though your results show DD blocks as midrange level products. Common sense and logic fail when big dick disease is present.

Anyway good luck.

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by Starbuck3733T

this isn't procooling after all. if you want an argument, go there. they care about the degree or two, so you'll hear US style 1/2 systems recommended.

more to come, relevant to the topic at hand

[pHaestus]

I plan to use nothing more than high school level math and physics to support my arguments, and everything will be cited and referenced. THEY picked the fight with Darcy; not me!

[knipex]

What exactly did he say to insult ProCool ???

I can use quotes also. (I edited my origional post to include some.)

Can we all (ProCool and Wizd) grow up now and just concentrate on what we are suposed to be doing..

No one "picked a fight". There was a thread that was contributed too by a few posters. That was it. No war no throwing down of gloves, no threats nothing.

What are we 5 year old kids.. He starterd it.... he picked on me....

[pHaestus]

wtf? don't delete the offensive threads and then ask me what was said exactly. Why not just undelete it, let everyone read it in its entirety, and THEN come here and say noone insulted this site.

the gist of that thread, I think all who read will agree was:
Procooling is full of lying poorly educated blowhards who are profiting off the sale of 1/2" ID cooling products. They made up the superiority of increasing flow rates for cooling and are now making lots of money off of it. Then there were a variety of other less relevant personal attacks.

All I am saying is that everything I support I can back up with facts. Are the quotes you used all the discussion about the superiority of small ID tubing systems that you'd care to make? Surely you can do better.

[knipex]

Sorry PH

I was reffering to Greenmans post above and the attached quote. I am the first to admit that the ProCooling bashing got out of hand and when we realised it we put a stop to it.

I personally came to Procooling, you and cather to appolagise and to try and put it right. I dont know what else I can do. Neither Pug nor any of the mods can be held responsible for every post made on the forums...

Edit

If you wish to have a vopy of the post put on here I can speak tp Pug about it. But we deleted it for a reason. We did no not want that kind of post on Wizd and leaving it up would have achieved nothing while keeping it in the public eye. We removed any derogitory refference to ProCooling.

[pHaestus]

And I am willing to let all of that foolishness drop; there are assholes everywhere. But in that thread there was a lot of misinformation and people making comments about the superiority of flow flow systems that flies completely in the face of years of test results and (more importantly) laws of physics.

I DO tend to hold grudges and am quick to disregard entire forums worth of people as being a waste of my time. But in this case it seems to me that some good for everyone could come out of this. Let the people who are making the claims about low flow/small tubing systems come forward, make their statements in a more permanent way (a website article) and defend them. Let's DO IT

Here is what I posted in your forum:

"As a forum I propose that you draft up a statement about the superiority of low flow/small tubing. I will write an article detailing why, for a given cooling system, that using lower resistance fittings and hose (proper plumbing and bigger tubing) will always result in either the same or improved performance.

To put it simply, for a given set of parts: smaller tubing is at BEST similar in performance and at worst it performs quite a bit worse.

I am quite eager to see the math on how you can improve cooling by using more restrictive tubing and fittings."

I really do wish you'd leave that thread up and just close it. The inaccuracies are what I am more interested in than the personal attacks (I have thick skin and can take it).

[pHaestus]

a PM sent to knipex:

As far as that thread goes, shit happens. There seem to be a lot of misinformed people on your forums though. It's fine to make tradeoffs like placing value on "ease of use" or "tidyness" and going with smaller hose. I never ran a Whitewater or RBX block in my own PC because I hate those Y connectors for example. I did this even though at the time the WW was the best available wb. I don't use a Cascade any more in my main PC because the nozzles get clogged up and it's a PITA to clean. Same deal; I value low maintenance more than that extra 1-2C I get out of the Cascade. But erroneously thinking that smaller tubing is "better" is not good. I also find it very disturbing that people would hold up German engineering to be so great and then bash the engineering principles (I guarantee you that the people at AlphaCool and Innovatek know the same math and physics I do) that make the German stuff possible. People just need to be better informed about the tradeoffs that they are making when they choose their kits. On BOTH sides of the pond actually.

[knipex]

I totally agree and that is what we are all trying to do.

From my post on Wizd.

Nope that is exactly whay I am saying. It is my opinion only I will add I cannot speak for anyone else (all though I expect 99% of the people here will agree with me). "German style" kits will not give better temps that "American" they will give as good or close (read a degree max 2)


I have allways said that the main benifit of smaller tubing is asthetics and ease of install. I will argue the fact that me temperatures are suffering hugely as a result though. I am quite willing to run a degree hotter with the advantages I get with the smaller tubing.

Another advantage in my view is that all the equipment designed to take 8mm O/D tubing is designed to run that way so its harder for a noob to build a poorly designed system. (but that is purely my own hypothisis)

Can we all agree to end this now and start with a clean slate ??

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by knipex

Sorry PH

I was reffering to Greenmans post above and the attached quote. I am the first to admit that the ProCooling bashing got out of hand and when we realised it we put a stop to it.

I should have been more specific, I guess. By "topic at hand" I meant high flow vs. low flow. I was just citing something form your forums that showed there is a perormance advantage to high flow.

but yet you claim there is a performance advantage to low flow? am I missing something?

[Chew_Toy]

I am personally looking forward to this. I am considering building a system with 5/16 ID tubing with a c-systems pump or an mcp600 with probably the Alphacool HP cpu block. I am hoping for temps within 2~4° of my 1/2 setup. But I honestly dont see a system based on 6mm tubes being within 1° of the 1/2 system. I believe that a 10mm ID system can get basicly the same results nowdays with the higher head pumps and more restrictive blocks but untill its proved to me I dont see it with the 6mm ID stuff.

[knipex]

Originally Posted by greenman100

I should have been more specific, I guess. By "topic at hand" I meant high flow vs. low flow. I was just citing something form your forums that showed there is a perormance advantage to high flow.

but yet you claim there is a performance advantage to low flow? am I missing something?

please read the post above yours.

[knipex]

Originally Posted by Chew_Toy

I am personally looking forward to this. I am considering building a system with 5/16 ID tubing with a c-systems pump or an mcp600 with probably the Alphacool HP cpu block. I am hoping for temps within 2~4° of my 1/2 setup. But I honestly dont see a system based on 6mm tubes being within 1° of the 1/2 system. I believe that a 10mm ID system can get basicly the same results nowdays with the higher head pumps and more restrictive blocks but untill its proved to me I dont see it with the 6mm ID stuff.

I think you may be pleasently surprised but as they say the proof is in the pudding.

On a side note and possibly another advantage.

I currently cool a CPU. GPU, Northbridge, Hardrive and moffsets using an old 1048 pump and 8/6mm tubing. When I added the hardrive and moffsets it had no effect on my CPU temps.

[bigben2k]

Huh?

I don't see 1/2 over 3/8 or vice versa as being an issue. I suggest that ya'll get your battles straight!

This is bound to degenerate into a useless "US vs German" thread, just like we had (and we had two!).

Bottom line, there's merit in both, and unless the flow rate is unusually high, the difference will be minimal.

I'll post pressure drop figures from Hazen-Williams, for 3/8 and 1/2" ID, for various flow rates, and various lengths of tubing, if anyone's interested, to support pHaestus' Darcy numbers.

[redleader]

Is there a link to the back story here? I took ~36 hours off from reading the site and i have no idea whats going on.

Oh the thread with everything I'd need to know to understand whats going on was helpfully deleted because eraseing something said is the same as never saying it!

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by redleader

Is there a link to the back story here? I took ~36 hours off from reading the site and i have no idea whats going on.

It seems to have been seriously edited. http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=427 I missed it aswell. :shrug: