The "Cascade" - mini-cup directed jet-impingement block design (56K warn) - Page 9

jaydee · 06-23-2003, 09:14 PM

I am not sure I follow your outlet idea GTA. I don't see how that would be better than just a outlet offset to the side. All the heat transfer is happening on the base around the cups, the outlet seems pretty irrelevant to me as long as it isn't adding excessive restriction. Anything more to add on your idea on why it might work better?

GTA · 06-24-2003, 06:46 AM

Something like this.

Not a new idea I'm sure, but I think it would work to the advantage of this design.

Rendered by someone a hell of a lot better at CAD than me

The 1/2" inlet hose goes inside the 1" outlet pipe, and is split a distance from the block itself. In my view, I think it looks very clean, and gives the block the look of having no outlet, which I reckon is cool

In the renders below, none of the block furniture is shown, or the starws etc that the cascade uses, but you get the idea.

Opinions?

Cathar · 06-24-2003, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTA
Opinions?

How does one route the tubing to the inner barb with the outlet in the way?

How much space would be required to do so?

What do you do with the 1" tubing? For how long is it run?

utabintarbo · 06-24-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
How does one route the tubing to the inner barb with the outlet in the way?

How much space would be required to do so?

What do you do with the 1" tubing? For how long is it run?

This is similar to the I/O design of the "Radius" block here.

Basically, the flow would be separated using a reservoir of sorts. This is not the most space-efficient design, and there are other issues (intake coolant being "pre-warmed" by the exhaust, etc.), but it looks cool!

Bob

bigben2k · 06-24-2003, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by utabintarbo
This is similar to the I/O design of the "Radius" block here.

Basically, the flow would be separated using a reservoir of sorts. This is not the most space-efficient design, and there are other issues (intake coolant being "pre-warmed" by the exhaust, etc.), but it looks cool!

Bob

Dido!

I did it for Radius, to make absolutely sure that the flow would be balanced radially. "Cascade" doesn't have radial flow, nor does it need balancing, since Cathar has figured out that even the single outlet has no effect on performance.

Good looking idea though.

GTA · 06-24-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
How does one route the tubing to the inner barb with the outlet in the way?

How much space would be required to do so?

What do you do with the 1" tubing? For how long is it run?

1. The tubing to the inlet runs inside the tubing for the outlet.
2. Not sure I get what you mean there.
3. Personally, I'd run the 1" tubing just far enough so that it was out of sight in the case. Admittedly, the main purpose of this inlet/outlet system is to look cool

I'm just not keen on the inlet/outlet look on the Cascade. I'm probably very much in the minority though. I think that if it wasn't modelled so much on the WW design, it could be made to look a lot better. Obviously no dispute that it works, but aesthetically, its not a patch on your WW block.

Just my 2p again, feel free to tell to piss off and make something better myself if I don't like it

ant1 · 06-24-2003, 11:28 AM

I don´t like the asymetric version of the Cascade either and GTA´s idea is a great way to solve the aesthetical problem. The only thing I dont´t get is how to get the inner tube out of the outer tube.

Blackeagle · 06-24-2003, 11:33 AM

Like the double tapered inlets on the micro tubes Cathar. How large a percentage increase in flow (%) did it result in? Could you note any change in temps?

Thanks

Blackeagle · 06-24-2003, 11:35 AM

The preheating of the incoming water alone is reason to avoid that change. Would not be much increase, but any avoidable increase in the incoming water temp. is desirable.

As to the apperance of the Cascade, I like it. It saves one extra line connection at the block and the Y that the White Water required. No design is going to please everyone on the looks of the blocks.

jaydee · 06-24-2003, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTA

Just my 2p again, feel free to tell to piss off and make something better myself if I don't like it

Ok, piss off and make something better yourself if you don't like it.

The problem I see with this though is whatever you make to seperate the inlet and the outlet will probably cover up the whole block anyway so it would be all for not. Would have to be some type of res/divider mounted right on the block itself or very very close to it I would think. I think the block looks just fine, but I said that about the White Water to.

GTA · 06-24-2003, 12:01 PM

As far as I can tell, it wouldn't have to be anywhere near the block, could be as far away as you liked really.

I envisioned something a bit like this to split the flow again.

Okay, the 90 degree bend isn't ideal, but the general idea is sound.

Also, I really don't know how much the incoming water would heat up. I wouldn't say it would be a lot. In my system, the water coming out of the block is only about a degree or so higher than the water going in.

bigben2k · 06-24-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ant1
I don´t like the asymetric version of the Cascade either and GTA´s idea is a great way to solve the aesthetical problem. The only thing I dont´t get is how to get the inner tube out of the outer tube.

Aesthetic problem? A matter of perspective, I'm sure

Cathar is severy limited in keeping the cost down, and that's what mostly dictates the resulting product.

But feel free to mod it yourself, once you get it

bigben2k · 06-24-2003, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTA
As far as I can tell, it wouldn't have to be anywhere near the block, could be as far away as you liked really.

Okay, the 90 degree bend isn't ideal, but the general idea is sound.

Again, similar to what I presented for Radius.

Actually, you'll find that both barbs need to come out at the top and bottom, creating 2 * 90 deg bends, but on a large radius and diameter, so it's not so restrictive (which Bill ignored, for some reason).

The main issue here is space: you've only got ~8 inches from the mobo tray, to the side of the case.

jaydee · 06-24-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

The main issue here is space: you've only got ~8 inches from the mobo tray, to the side of the case.

Thats on a monster case. My Antec SX830 only hase about 4-5". Thats what I was getting at. You need this adapter right in front of the block becuase trying to route 1" hose will be nearly impossble with the tight turns required, especially with a smaller hose in the middle. Sounds like a flow restriction on the bends for the outlet to me. Not mention the hose will probably kink. Not to mention anyone wanting to have a Vid card cooler and chipset cooler. Might make it a little rough......

Giving me something interesting to think about though GTA.

GTA · 06-24-2003, 02:43 PM

Its a concept I'm going to try, and once you start thinking about it, it does start to open up new possibilities for block design, i've got a few i'd like to give a go.

First off will be done without barbs, just using 1" copper pipe with 1/2" pipe inside it. I'll try to get something knocked up soon, give everyone a better idea of what its actually going to be like.

It might be impractical for a mass produced block, but as a one off, it would suit my system fine. I don't use a case for starters

nicozeg · 06-24-2003, 04:40 PM

A good looking single outlet solution is Morphling's variation of the WW design, by placing the outlet over the socket cam box. It could be done easier on this design, but it will require a bigger base... Or maybe smaller, with just a top plate extending over the mounting holes.

Cathar · 06-24-2003, 07:04 PM

Okay, we're all getting into severe personal taste territory here.

The position of the barbs with the oval O-Rings looks not too dissimilar to a Maze 3 at first appearances. When it's installed, it can be hard to pick the two apart at a casual glance due to the tubing in the way.

Fancy tubing within tubing outlets really isn't my goal, and it doesn't really suit a production block, it costs extra, and it causes many people to think "WTF?" and look elsewhere. It's not necessary for function, and it needs extra tubing and equipment. My personal feeling is that it's over-engineering for no gain.

Morphling1's outlet design was outside of my design goals. I wanted to make a symmetric block with respect to mounting. The block can be turned either way when mounted, and this means it may be more convenient for routing tubing in tight space scenarios. It also prevents the "Damn - I mounted it the wrong way and fried my CPU" type of problems.

ie. the design does not benefit from nor need fancy outlet approaches. The two-barb design is intuitive. The asymmetrical aesthetics argument really is a matter of personal taste, and as with most things, a taste which can be acquired rather than be an end-all rule to how the block should look, over function.

If y'all want it to look different, you're most welcome to grab one off me without the top plate, cut some extra holes in the middle plate and make your own top-plate to suit your tastes, which is a polite way of saying what GTA said: "piss off and make something better yourself if you don't like it!"

LiquidRulez · 06-24-2003, 08:06 PM

"cut some extra holes in the middle plate and make your own top-plate to suit your tastes, which is a polite way of saying what GTA said: "piss off and make something better yourself if you don't like it!"

OUCH ! ! !
Not too polite when you include the actual comment used in comparison.

How much are you going to be selling these for Cathar?.....
Should make a good profit on these considering they'll be so cheap to produce.

t00lb0x · 06-24-2003, 08:34 PM

I think his website said 130AUD for P4 block 140 for block with both adapters or whatever. Thats like $80USD.

Cathar · 06-24-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
How much are you going to be selling these for Cathar?.....
Should make a good profit on these considering they'll be so cheap to produce.

http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/

Good profit? Not even close.

The middle plate with the jet tubes takes almost 30 minutes of machine time. Polycarb is easy to machine, but we're using sub-mm cutters here, requiring over 4x the total bit travel distance as was in the White Water base-plate per pass. Can't cut as deep per pass, and the feed-rate is limited due to the tiny size of the cutters used. The middle plate is almost literally worth it's weight in gold.

The copper plate's holes are plunge milled (not drilled), and "pecking" is used to clear the swarf for each hole as the bit descends. The copper plate takes a significant amount of time to machine due to the number of holes, then its base is machined flat afterwards, and tapped.

In all, there's actually more machining time per block than was in the White Water's, and you'll notice that I'm selling the blocks for less this time.

They are easier for me to finish off ready to ship though, requiring less of my own time and equipment, but right now I have enough debt on this to buy a small car outright.

Put it this way. I make more (gross salary) in a month with my real job, than I would make in a year of selling these blocks. I'm just looking for the "break even" light at the end of the tunnel, and right now it's pretty damn far away.

t00lb0x · 06-24-2003, 09:09 PM

Cathar does the the fact your making the world of watercooling a better place help at all? Do you ship to the USheh?

Cathar · 06-24-2003, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by t00lb0x
Cathar does the the fact your making the world of watercooling a better place help at all?

It's the only thing that keeps me going. I love what I do.

Quote:

Originally posted by t00lb0x
Do you ship to the USheh?

It's in the web-site, but yes, pretty much anywhere in the world.

t00lb0x · 06-24-2003, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
It's the only thing that keeps me going. I love what I do.

It's in the web-site, but yes, pretty much anywhere in the world.

Sorry, I just knowticed the website saying that it ships to the US. And its good to know that some people don't do things for money. And thanks for helping the community...

bigben2k · 06-25-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
...In the meantime I'll chase up the eyelets and see if this is a viable thing to do. ...
utabintarbo, Since87, and bigben2k, if this works out, I owe each of you a free block.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
Totally infeasible to do the molding reliably with the cast-in eyelets. They are simply too small. I do have a sample of eyelets and we're investigating tapered press-fitting with them.

Oh well, so much for my block

I've been trying to think of ways to improve on performance, and I keep hitting a wall. In previous design attempts, without jet inpingement, the temperature differential was considered a factor in the design, but I believe that the jet inpingement takes that away. I'm thinking about how this block would perform with chilled water, and of course different coolants (as a result) with different viscosities and density, and I can't even think about how this design would/could be changed to accomodate that. I think that the jet inpingement application took some variables out of the design process.

Maybe I need a completely different approach.:shrug:

GTA · 06-25-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Maybe I need a completely different approach.:shrug:

Been thinking that myself. Current avenues of thought include :

1. Inducing turbulence in the water before it enters the block.
2. Multiple inlet designs
3. The 1" outlet thing above.
4. Twisterbongs incorporated into blocks.

You got anything in mind?

06-24-2003, 12:01 PM	#211
GTA Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK - Bristol Posts: 134	As far as I can tell, it wouldn't have to be anywhere near the block, could be as far away as you liked really. I envisioned something a bit like this to split the flow again. Okay, the 90 degree bend isn't ideal, but the general idea is sound. Also, I really don't know how much the incoming water would heat up. I wouldn't say it would be a lot. In my system, the water coming out of the block is only about a degree or so higher than the water going in. Last edited by GTA; 06-24-2003 at 12:06 PM.

06-24-2003, 08:06 PM	#218
LiquidRulez Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In Hell Posts: 322	"cut some extra holes in the middle plate and make your own top-plate to suit your tastes, which is a polite way of saying what GTA said: "piss off and make something better yourself if you don't like it!" OUCH ! ! ! Not too polite when you include the actual comment used in comparison. How much are you going to be selling these for Cathar?..... Should make a good profit on these considering they'll be so cheap to produce. __________________ GOt H20 ?

06-24-2003, 08:34 PM	#219
t00lb0x Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: In a box Posts: 221	I think his website said 130AUD for P4 block 140 for block with both adapters or whatever. Thats like $80USD. __________________ "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

06-24-2003, 09:09 PM	#221
t00lb0x Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: In a box Posts: 221	Cathar does the the fact your making the world of watercooling a better place help at all? Do you ship to the USheh? __________________ "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

06-23-2003, 09:14 PM	#201
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I am not sure I follow your outlet idea GTA. I don't see how that would be better than just a outlet offset to the side. All the heat transfer is happening on the base around the cups, the outlet seems pretty irrelevant to me as long as it isn't adding excessive restriction. Anything more to add on your idea on why it might work better?

06-24-2003, 06:46 AM	#202
GTA Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK - Bristol Posts: 134	Something like this. Not a new idea I'm sure, but I think it would work to the advantage of this design. Rendered by someone a hell of a lot better at CAD than me The 1/2" inlet hose goes inside the 1" outlet pipe, and is split a distance from the block itself. In my view, I think it looks very clean, and gives the block the look of having no outlet, which I reckon is cool In the renders below, none of the block furniture is shown, or the starws etc that the cascade uses, but you get the idea. Opinions?

06-24-2003, 11:28 AM	#207
ant1 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: germany Posts: 1	I don´t like the asymetric version of the Cascade either and GTA´s idea is a great way to solve the aesthetical problem. The only thing I dont´t get is how to get the inner tube out of the outer tube.

06-24-2003, 11:33 AM	#208
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Like the double tapered inlets on the micro tubes Cathar. How large a percentage increase in flow (%) did it result in? Could you note any change in temps? Thanks

06-24-2003, 11:35 AM	#209
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	The preheating of the incoming water alone is reason to avoid that change. Would not be much increase, but any avoidable increase in the incoming water temp. is desirable. As to the apperance of the Cascade, I like it. It saves one extra line connection at the block and the Y that the White Water required. No design is going to please everyone on the looks of the blocks.

06-24-2003, 02:43 PM	#215
GTA Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK - Bristol Posts: 134	Its a concept I'm going to try, and once you start thinking about it, it does start to open up new possibilities for block design, i've got a few i'd like to give a go. First off will be done without barbs, just using 1" copper pipe with 1/2" pipe inside it. I'll try to get something knocked up soon, give everyone a better idea of what its actually going to be like. It might be impractical for a mass produced block, but as a one off, it would suit my system fine. I don't use a case for starters

06-24-2003, 04:40 PM	#216
nicozeg Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 403	A good looking single outlet solution is Morphling's variation of the WW design, by placing the outlet over the socket cam box. It could be done easier on this design, but it will require a bigger base... Or maybe smaller, with just a top plate extending over the mounting holes.

06-24-2003, 07:04 PM	#217
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Okay, we're all getting into severe personal taste territory here. The position of the barbs with the oval O-Rings looks not too dissimilar to a Maze 3 at first appearances. When it's installed, it can be hard to pick the two apart at a casual glance due to the tubing in the way. Fancy tubing within tubing outlets really isn't my goal, and it doesn't really suit a production block, it costs extra, and it causes many people to think "WTF?" and look elsewhere. It's not necessary for function, and it needs extra tubing and equipment. My personal feeling is that it's over-engineering for no gain. Morphling1's outlet design was outside of my design goals. I wanted to make a symmetric block with respect to mounting. The block can be turned either way when mounted, and this means it may be more convenient for routing tubing in tight space scenarios. It also prevents the "Damn - I mounted it the wrong way and fried my CPU" type of problems. ie. the design does not benefit from nor need fancy outlet approaches. The two-barb design is intuitive. The asymmetrical aesthetics argument really is a matter of personal taste, and as with most things, a taste which can be acquired rather than be an end-all rule to how the block should look, over function. If y'all want it to look different, you're most welcome to grab one off me without the top plate, cut some extra holes in the middle plate and make your own top-plate to suit your tastes, which is a polite way of saying what GTA said: "piss off and make something better yourself if you don't like it!"

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