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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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10-18-2005, 06:26 AM | #1 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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PA120.3 vs HE120.3 vs PA160
Go on then guyz... tear it up...!
Posted in here as the end result is the resulting temps for the rads... and yes, I'm aware my testing methodology sucks :P This is just for my own amusement whilst we wait for rads to land with Cathar... ================================================== === A combination of unfortunate events recently resulted in an old familiar friend making an appearance on my doorstep... my old TEC rig had returned home...! The guy I sold this to (R.I.P. d00d) sadly couldn't get his head round the TEC side of things so ran it as a standard watercooling setup. Once it got back to me however, twas time to get the TECs back on the job. 226w TEC on CPU (A64 Clawhammer 3200+), 172w TEC on GPU (X800ProVIVO >> X800XT-PE). Figured whilst I was in there I'd strip out the previous 240v Eheim1250 pump... hell... all the watercooling got ripped out basically... and refit with more up-to-date equivalents.... The radiator in this rig is the first ever ThermoChill HE120.3 prototype from way-back-when. Still going strong... So... what was I gonna do with the rig now? Well, with the new PA Series rads finally getting sorted, figured may as well do a comparison of HE120.3 vs PA120.3 with the same fans... to do so required some monitoring tools in the form of the mCubed T-Balancer and some handiwork with silicon... thus giving me liquid in and out temps... And air in and out temps Add in the handy feature of the tbalancer software being able to talk to LCDC and we get... MBM5 will collect CPU temps, and ATITool will handle GPU temps. So, that was the rig all ready... time to case it all up but leave rad external (just easier for swapping it over later) Started off with unit under full load with as much heat as possible, whilst keeping speeds at stock. CPU was set to 1.75v. AGP VDDQ to 1.6v. 100% load inflicted. Temps were meaured every 20mins. Surveying them, they levelled out rapidly, within an hour, and hovered around the same points for the rest of the day (controlled ambient as best possible). Max variance in ambient temp was 1.5 deg C. This was reflected across the board. Note, temps shown are just a quick cross-section of readings recorded, not complete end-to-end results... HE120.3 with 3x Panaflo M1A@7v Air<: 23.0 | 24.0 | 23.5 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 24.5 | 24.0 Air>: 26.0 | 27.0 | 26.5 | 26.0 | 26.5 | 27.5 | 27.0 Liq<: 33.5 | 34.0 | 34.0 | 34.0 | 34.0 | 34.5 | 34.5 Liq>: 33.0 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 34.0 | 33.5 CPU: 17.0 | 17.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 19.0 | 18.0 GPU: 19.0 | 19.0 | 20.0 | 19.0 | 20.0 | 20.0 | 20.0 < = In > = Out So, averages are being used. I'll summise testing of the HE120.3 with Panaflo M1A (fans at 7.04v by multimeter) as follows: Avg Air <: 23.6 Avg Air >: 26.6 Avg Air Dt: 03.0 Avg Liq <: 33.9 Avg Liq >: 33.5 Avg Liq Dt: 0.40 Next step - remove HE120.3, install PA120.3 with same fans set to same voltage by Rheostat (measured with multimeter). This gave me the following recordset... PA120.3 with 3x Panaflo M1A@7v Air<: 22.5 | 24.0 | 22.5 | 23.0 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 22.5 | 23.0 | 22.5 | 22.5 Air>: 27.5 | 28.0 | 27.5 | 28.0 | 28.0 | 28.5 | 28.0 | 28.5 | 28.0 | 28.0 Liq<: 30.5 | 30.5 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 30.5 | 31.0 | 30.5 | 31.0 Liq>: 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.5 | 30.5 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 CPU: 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 14.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 GPU: 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 Avg Air <: 22.9 Avg Air >: 28.0 Avg Air Dt: 05.1 Avg Liq <: 30.8 Avg Liq >: 30.1 Avg Liq Dt: 00.7 Already, we see a substantial drop in CPU and GPU temps between the two rads, with the PA120.3 shaving 4 or 5 degrees off each over the old HE series. Figured I'd go for some self-amusement next... PA160 with 1x Panaflo M1A@7v Well... I'm impressed... Air<: 24.0 | 23.5 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 23.5 | 23.0 | 24.0 | 23.5 Air>: 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 32.0 | 31.5 Liq<: 37.0 | 37.5 | 37.5 | 37.0 | 37.0 | 37.5 | 38.0 | 38.0 Liq>: 35.5 | 36.5 | 36.0 | 36.0 | 35.5 | 36.0 | 36.5 | 36.5 CPU: 21.0 | 22.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 GPU: 21.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 Avg Air <: 23.5 Avg Air >: 31.5 Avg Air Dt: 08.0 Avg Liq <: 37.4 Avg Liq >: 36.0 Avg Liq Dt: 01.4 Only 1 or 2 degrees hotter than the HE120.3 manages on CPU & GPU temps, with 2 less fans = less noise. Always a bonus! Break it down... PA160 with 1x Panaflo M1A @ 7v: CPU - 21 GPU - 22 HE120.3 with 3x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 18 GPU - 19 PA120.3 with 3x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 15 GPU - 15 |
10-18-2005, 07:23 AM | #2 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: southeast asia
Posts: 164
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Just gotta ask, what Motherboard are you using?
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10-18-2005, 07:26 AM | #3 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Results (looking at air/water temps only) seem to be indicating a ~37% performance improvement with the PA over the HE at the fan power provided. That's even better than the results I was seeing with the old coarse prototype I had here. Should be even bigger gains on tap if you ran the fans at 5v and did a comparison there. Looks like the final production version has come on song very nicely indeed. Results are rather wild though, and swinging by quite large amounts, so hard to be really confident about what's being reported, but there can be no doubt that the PA is kicking the HE's butt by significantly more than any apparant margin of error.
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10-18-2005, 08:33 AM | #4 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Abit KV8 Max 3 (aka a horrible example of VIA Chipset misery)
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10-19-2005, 08:45 AM | #5 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Silverdale, WA
Posts: 16
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Your CPU and GPU temps are less than the water temps. This is not right.
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10-19-2005, 08:49 AM | #6 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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READ the thread Dingbat.
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10-19-2005, 11:39 AM | #7 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: southeast asia
Posts: 164
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What temps per Peltier? Sorry 0 knowledge & experience. :shrug:
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10-19-2005, 02:18 PM | #8 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
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Very impressive work guys. Someone has been working hard as the results show.
Marci, what are you powering the pelts with and at what voltages? Could you do a quick run with two fans on the pa160. I always wondered what a pa160 could do with fans in push and pull config. We need a rad round up with thermochills, coolingworks, BI, and some bonne and chevette heatercores. Maybe some other rads from Europe as well. |
10-19-2005, 06:28 PM | #9 | |
c00ling p00n
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 758
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Quote:
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10-20-2005, 04:33 AM | #10 | |||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Quote:
Quote:
172w TEC - Tagan 480w (ie: The PC PSU) - 11.98v according to MultiMeter. (How convenient!!) Quote:
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10-20-2005, 04:47 AM | #11 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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First observation - 2x M1A's @ 7v makes much more row than one of em on it's own...
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10-20-2005, 04:59 AM | #12 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Quote:
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10-20-2005, 05:09 AM | #13 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
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Quote:
Edit. Inserted correct quote Last edited by Les; 10-20-2005 at 05:41 AM. |
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10-20-2005, 05:55 AM | #14 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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S'looking like push-pull basically scrapes another degree off CPU & GPU in the current scenario...
Found the most annoying source of racket in this setup - MicroCool NorthPole... even 5v'd it gives off a distinct "I'm a small Delta" style drone... unavoidable - no alternative to hand. Les - elaborate... you're saying my heatload is too variable? |
10-20-2005, 06:10 AM | #15 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
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Quote:
) and indicating that, to me, "Heat Dump" stands out Perhaps, also,suggesting using TECs(for heat load) maybe part of the problem |
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10-20-2005, 08:51 AM | #16 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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Yep - heatload reproduction is an issue... hence not using this as any serious testing... just informing reported temps for folks to draw what they will. Anyways.... results for PA160 in push-pull... 2x Panaflo M1A's at 7v.
Air<: 23.0 | 23.0 | 24.0 | 23.0 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 24.0 | 23.5 | 24.0 | 23.5 Air>: 27.0 | 28.0 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 28.5 | 28.0 | 29.5 Liq<: 34.5 | 35.5 | 36.5 | 36.5 | 36.5 | 36.5 | 37.0 | 37.5 | 37.5 | 38.0 Liq>: 34.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.5 | 36.0 | 36.5 | 36.5 CPU: 19.0 | 20.0 | 21.0 | 20.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.5 | 21.5 | 21.5 GPU: 19.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 Push-Pull appears to be no significant benefit over push. (Well, nothing I can measure anyways) Last edited by Marci; 10-20-2005 at 09:18 AM. |
10-20-2005, 09:02 AM | #17 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3
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Photo above has the fans pushing through the rad. Was this on the PA, or both PA and HE? Would pulling through give better results? Were shrouds used on either set-up? |
10-20-2005, 09:17 AM | #18 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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All rads were tested with fans pushing. Shrouds were not used other than on PA160 as requirement for fan mounting (as shrouds don't exist for PA120 series)
Doubt pulling over pushing would make any significant difference to the avg user. Quote:
Last edited by Marci; 10-20-2005 at 10:10 AM. |
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10-20-2005, 04:39 PM | #19 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 8
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Quote:
Thanks for doing this review Marci, I had already decided to look into a PA120.2 but your review made me want it now. My intention is to replace the standard radiator on the Swiftech Extreme Duty Storm kit with this radiator. I'd love to hear some opinions on how much of a difference this will make. Themochill's website had a question on checkout that said, in essence, "What made you decide to buy this product" to which I answered, "Cause Cathar said it's great". I was also wondering if this radiator would be any benefit to my secondary loop which will all be Aqua-Computer and 6mm ID based. I know you'd probably need to know the components to judge this but I haven't decided yet. It will be a GPU block, Ramplex, Northbridge and possibly one or two HD coolers. I will either use a MCP350 or an Aquastream (Eheim 1046). |
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10-20-2005, 06:39 PM | #20 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: South California
Posts: 26
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When exactly are US stores going to stock them?
Btw, do the M1A's make a 'whiny' sound at 7V? |
10-20-2005, 09:00 PM | #21 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
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They do make a whiny motor noise but get more air flow than nexus fans. I don't think the extra cfm will make much of a difference with the pa120.x because the fin pattern. If you seen the new pa120.x, the fin pattern is less dense. Very simliar to pa160 fin pattern. Marci has pictures available I believe.
Nice to know you guys are focusing on more towards silent WCing. If i have to buy a new rad for my pelt setup looks like I have an easy decision. |
10-20-2005, 10:54 PM | #22 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 85
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Not to go off topic, but is Thermochill thinking/designing shrouds for the PA120.x series? Or is it that the overall design of the PA120.x series doesn't require a 30-40mm lift of fans off radiator core?
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10-21-2005, 02:14 AM | #23 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Up close shot of the PA120.2 here:
http://canislupy.com/p/albums/userpi...01/h2o_009.jpg Beware: BIG file |
10-21-2005, 02:56 AM | #24 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: southeast asia
Posts: 164
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Oh my that is a BIG picture file, 5.29mb
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10-21-2005, 04:56 AM | #25 | |||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
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