Phase Change - Page 3

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-23-2002, 03:45 PM

Ben, I am aware of the different boiling points of refrigerants..

bigben2k · 07-23-2002, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Ben, I am aware of the different boiling points of refrigerants..

He he, just covering your back, bro...

SonixOS · 07-23-2002, 08:19 PM

which antifreeze should i mix with pure water to use to cool my processor? I am thinking just get a nice bottle of Water Wetter and use that, why not?

As for the water temp, I am using the 65 pint Dehumidifier (kenmore), it runs 2500 BTU (supposedly) so should I take it to an A/C guy and get him to check it out? I bought it used (store return) but still from sears.

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-23-2002, 08:39 PM

If you have the money to waste.. he won't do anything that you could do yourself..

Go to a local Auto Zone and get this stuff from Prestone.. called

LowTox Anti-Freeze

It's like certified safe for the environment and wild life .. you can't miss it.. it's in a white jug..

It's good stuff cuz it won't be to harsh on your system.. and it works good... I think it's glycol based so use little as possible.. If you get a bit of ice up when your PC is off.. don't worry once you turn your PC on and the water warms up it will take care of any slush.

bowman1964 · 07-23-2002, 09:39 PM

look hear guys .finally got aroung to putting my shroud on the condensor and man drop me 5 more degrees.cooling block is now
-57.1 f on the face and -52.1 on the side.tweek tweek tweek.hears a pic

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-24-2002, 12:35 AM

What is the boiling point of 22?

SonixOS · 07-24-2002, 06:10 AM

bowman, what is the BTU rating for your compressor? How come u get such good temps? Are you using the refrigerant directly or cooling the condensor with water?

And how much should I use of that lowtox antifreeze punisher? I got a 19x12x6 reservoir. I am thinking of maybe filling it half way so how much antifreeze should I put in there? When i used the texaco antifreeze, i just kept adding more and more until I saw no frost over the condensor in the water. Good or bad to do?

thanks guys, oh yeah bowman, u RULE! great temps man, hope I can get something like that. Tell me about the stuff u used in your system.

ViperSTD · 07-24-2002, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
What is the boiling point of 22?

As far as I know these are the boiling temps: R22@-41, R12@ -21F, R134@-12F.

Good luck finding R22 though. It is nasty stuff. Mix it with water and the acid will melt your bones. Mix it with flame and it turns into a WWII nerve gas.:shrug:

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-24-2002, 08:47 AM

Use as little anti-freeze as possible.. It sucks at heat transfer.. Atleast Glycol based AF is..

Anyway... go on the back of the bottle.. it gives a chart.. I think it's like.. -20F 40% AF 60% water.. -60F .. etc

So if your water stays around 20F.. I would say start out with 10% AF and 90% water..

It doesn't matter if you have a bit of frost on the top of the water.. You just don't slush.. or ice in the water lines.. As long as you have a strongest enough pump though you shouldn't get ice in the lines no matter what.. as long as the water is flowing that is..

You aren't running these real great temps.. Don't get me wrong though.. You are cooling your compressor with that water too.. which just amazing that you are still get such low temps.. But let me tell you that the compressor NEEDS to get warm/hot.. Because it is compressing the freon from a liquid to a gas.. (or is it gas to liquid?)

Either way .. it needs to compress the freon.. The compression is energy used which comes off in the form of heat.. so that the freon can turn into gas from a liquid and go into the condensor to get cooled.. I suppose if you super chilled your compressor.. you in theory wouldn't even need a condensor.. cuz that's all the condensor does.. is remove the heat from the refrigerant because of the compressing process.

Oh, BTW.. Bowman is using a 1/4HP? (i think) compressor.. it's R22 which has a LOT lower boiling point then R-134A.. which is whats in your dehumidifer most likely.. same with my phase change setup.. Doesn't mean our systems can't be good too.. we just won't see -57F

Bowman, I am running this setup,

30Ft Evaporator.. divided up into 3 coils 10ft each.. in 3" PVC pipes that have water flowing through them at 1/2" connections with a 360GPH pump...

20Ft condensor.. Divided up into 2 coils 10ft each.. in 3" PVC pipes that have water flowing through them at 3/8" connections accept for on the last pipe the exit barb is 1/4" (to keep up back pressure so the tubes stay 100% full at all times) with a 120GPH pump.

Do you see any advantage to me water cooling my condensor..? What do you think about that setup? It's a 1/20HP compressor. R-134A.

Oh and do you think my 360GPH pump will be good enough to keep water pressure up in the evaporator tubes so the entire evaporator coil is covered in water? What do you think about that water chiller idea? Should I have the exit on the last evaporator pipe be 3/8" or something to keep up back pressure? I am running a 1/2" water block n all ..

Adios

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-24-2002, 08:48 AM

You are wrong with those boiling points.. Bowman has -57F on his evaporator and he's running R22.. But let me speak for myself.. I run 134A and I see -18F.. Which is -27C .. which I know for a fact is the boiling point of 134A.

Just didn't know 22 cuz Bowman is gettin that shiet so low..

ViperSTD · 07-24-2002, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
You are wrong with those boiling points.. Bowman has -57F on his evaporator and he's running R22.. But let me speak for myself.. I run 134A and I see -18F.. Which is -27C .. which I know for a fact is the boiling point of 134A.

Just didn't know 22 cuz Bowman is gettin that shiet so low..

I want to point out that the boiling point changes depending on pressure.

Good table of refrigerants

SonixOS · 07-24-2002, 01:02 PM

I had -7C with a fan pointed at the compressor. I got like between 0-5 with a small rad with a rotron on it coolnig the compressor. So -7C is with the hot compressor.

My Compressor USES R22! So there is no reason for why the water temps are soo high. ALso Should I have cool air cooling the hot condensor (maybe evaporator whatever one is the hot radiator thing) maybe the colder that is the colder my temps r gonna be.

I am using a nice eheim 317 gph pump.

bowman1964 · 07-24-2002, 01:45 PM

LET ME ANSER SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS:
FIRST THE BLOCK WAS INSULATED EXCEPT THE BOTTOM OF THE COLD PLATE.
YES THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK STAYED CLOSE TO -27C THOUGH MOST OF THE TEST.
ALL THOUGH IT DID START TO RISE 5 MINUTES INTO THE LOAD AT FIRST,
BECAUSE I DIDNT HAVE ENOUGH FREON IN THE SYSTEM SO I ADDED A LITTLE BIT
MORE AND STARTED TO STAY AT -27C.
NOW THE PLET WAS RATED AT 156 WATTS AT 13.8 VOLTS AND I RAN IT WITH MY
40 AMP POWER SUPPLY,PELT DRAWS CLOSE TO 15 AMP AT LOAD.
NOW THE HOT SIDE OF THE PELT WAS AGAIST THE BOTTON OF THE BLOCK AND
THE BLOCK AND PELT ARE THE SAME SIZE 50MM X 50MM.I MACHINED A GROOVE
IN THE BOTTOM OF THE BLOCK TO PUT A TEMP PROBE CLOSE TO THE CPU CORE.
SO THE PROBE SAT AGAINST THE HOT SIDE OF THE PELT AND THE BLOCK THATS
HOW I DID THAT.NOW THE COMPRESSOR RETURN(SUCTION)LINE DOES HAVE FROST
TO THE COMPRESSOR WITH NO LOAD,BUT WHEN RUNNING A LOAD NO FROST.
THE COPPER IS ALLOY 110 I BELIEVE.THE BLOSK HAS 4 MAZES CONNECTED
.200 X.300 X 5 1/2 FEET LONG GROOVES.THAT GIVES THE FREON LONG ENOUGH
TIME TO TRANSFER THE HEAT.COST IS ABOUT $200.00.BUT THAT INCLUDES THE
PRICE OF MY PROTO TYPE UNIT.
NOW I HAVE DROPPED MY TEMPS EVEN MORE BY TWWEKING SOME MORE.
MAY METER WONT READ PAST -58F AND IT WILL GO PAST THAT NOW NO LOAD.

NOW BEFORE EVERYONE JUMPS UP AND SAYS R22 BOILS AT -40F SO IT CANNT
GET THAT COLD.LOOK AT A CHART AND MY COMPRESSOR RUNS IN A VACUUM
ON THE SUCTION SIDE OF ABOUT 12 INCHS OF VACUUM.AT THAT VACCUM R22
BOILS ABOUT -60F.
NOW HOW COME I GET THE TEMPS I GET.WELL......
I DESIGNED THE SYSTEM FROM SCRATH WITH THE MOST EFFICIENT USE OF
COMPONENTS I COULD.COMPRESSOR IS 1/4HP FOUND ANYTHING SMALLER DOESNT
HAVE ENOUGH SUCTION TO MAKE A STRONG VACCUM TO GET BELOW -40F.
THE CONDENSOR IS MOUNTED HORIZONTAL WITH NO TUBES GOING UP AND DOWN.
THIS KEEPS THE OIL AND FREON FROM COLLECTING IN A TUBE,ALSO KEEPS
A STEADY FLOW OF FREON TO THE CAPILARY TUBE.
THE CAPILARY TUBE IS RAN INSIDE OF THE SUCTION LINE FROM THE
COMPRESSOR TO INSIDE THE EVAP BLOCK.THIS MAKES THE RETURN GAS
SUPER COOL THE INCOMING LIQUID FREON, MAKING IT COLDER AND DENSER.
THE SUTION LINE IS BENT IN A WAY THAT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR LIQUID
FREON TO GET INTO THE COMPRESSOR
THE EVAPERATOR IT SELF IS MY DESIGN WITH A INJECTOR NOZZLE RIGHT OVER
THE CPU DIE SPRAYING SUPER COOLED FREON STRAIGHT ON THE BOTTOM PLATE
OF THE EVAPERATOR.AND RETURNING THOUGH A MAZE OF ALMOST 5FT 6"LONG
.I USED FLEXABLE AUTOMOTIVE AC HOSE TO ALOW EASY FLEXING AND MOUNTING
OF THE BLOCK TO THE BOARD.PROTO TYPE UNIT I USED COPPER AND FOUND IT
IS VERY HARD TO BEND EVEN SOFT COPPER TIME AND TIME AGAIN BETWEEN
CHANGING CPU'S.THIS IS MAJOR FAILURE OF THE UNITS YOU BY ONLINE.

SonixOS · 07-24-2002, 02:13 PM

Oh you're using straight freon cooling? I am using the evaporator to cool the water and THEN cool the processor. I am taking alcohol thermometer readings of the WATER not of the freon itself. I cant take a temp reading of the block with my 226w pelt because my thermometer has a round base and wouldnt take good readings. Plus the antifreeze freezes anyways on the block.

bigben2k · 07-24-2002, 02:25 PM

(and here's the whisper quiet version):

Let me answer some of your questions:
First the block was insulated except the bottom of the cold plate. Yes the side of the block stayed close to -27C though most of the test. Although it did start to rise 5 minutes into the load at first,
because I didn’t have enough Freon in the system so I added a little bit more and started to stay at -27C.

Now the pelt was rated at 156 watts at 13.8 volts and I ran it with my 40 amp power supply, pelt draws close to 15 amp at load. Now the hot side of the pelt was against the bottom of the block and the block and pelt are the same size 50MM x 50MM.i machined a groove in the bottom of the block to put a temp probe close to the cpu core. So the probe sat against the hot side of the pelt and the block that’s how I did that.

Now the compressor return (suction) line does have frost to the compressor with no load, but when running a load, no frost.

The copper is alloy 110 I believe. The block has 4 mazes connected
.200 x.300 x 5 1/2 feet long grooves. That gives the Freon long enough
time to transfer the heat.

Cost is about $200.00.but that includes the price of my proto type unit.
Now I have dropped my temps even more by tweaking some more.

May meter won’t read past -58F and it will go past that now no load.

Now before everyone jumps up and says r22 boils at -40F so it can’t
get that cold. Look at a chart and my compressor runs in a vacuum
on the suction side of about 12 inches of vacuum. At that vacuum r22
boils about -60F.

Now how come I get the temps I get, well......

I designed the system from scratch with the most efficient use of components I could.

Compressor is 1/4HP found anything smaller doesn’t have enough suction to make a strong vacuum to get below -40F. The condenser is mounted horizontal with no tubes going up and down. This keeps the oil and Freon from collecting in a tube, also keeps a steady flow of Freon to the capillary tube.

The capillary tube is run inside of the suction line from the compressor to inside the evap block. This makes the return gas super cool the incoming liquid Freon, making it colder and denser.
The suction line is bent in a way that is almost impossible for liquid
Freon to get into the compressor.

the evaporator it self is my design with a injector nozzle right over the cpu die spraying super cooled Freon straight on the bottom plate of the evaporator and returning though a maze of almost 5FT 6"long. I used flexible automotive ac hose to allow easy flexing and mounting of the block to the board prototype unit I used copper and found it is very hard to bend even soft copper time and time again between changing cpu's. This is major failure of the units you buy online.

bowman1964 · 07-24-2002, 02:52 PM

SORRY GUYS IF YOU THINK ME USING CAP LOCKS ON THE KEYBOARD MEANS I AM MAD.JUST MY PC AT WORK HERE USES CAP LOCKS ON ALL THE TIME SO I DONT PAY IT MUCH MIND.
I AM HAPPY TO ANSER ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE I HAVE BEEN AROUND COOLING AND AC FOR 20 YEARS.I JUST DONT GET ONLINE MOST DAYS UNTILL AT NIGHT. I AM A SINGLE PARENT WITH TWO CHILDREN SO MY TIME SOMETIMES ISNT THE BEST.

ReallyUgly · 07-24-2002, 03:23 PM

First Question:
where can one find refrigerant.. i mean to make a Direct phase cooling system youre going to design the components part by part and then interconnecting them. This would mean that U would have too add refrigerant to the system .. where can one find that ?

Second Question:
Should u not have a separator (vapor / liquid) before the compressor ?
Correct me if i am wrong, If u don't have a seperator the compressor could work abnormal (bubbles) and lead to explosion danger (potential) ?
And if u don't have a seperator u should have enough evaporation area (right ??), I don't think cooling a cpu is sufficient ... or am i mistaking here.
Evaporator design do u have a guide--> block on cpu)

Third Question:
For the reducing pressure U used cappilary tubes or ..?? did u contruct it u'r self ? GUIDE ?

or just using one off a Fridge ...?

how about a guide...

bigben2k · 07-24-2002, 03:28 PM

A guide would be nice, but what you're asking for, is HVAC training.

Basically, a phase change system is composed of 4 parts:
-compressor
-evaporator
-condenser
-nozzle

Yes, having a res helps to make sure that the pump only compresses what it's supposed to compress is good, but otherwise, it only affects performance.

I found a source for refrigerants here , but it is in the USA. You should check your local shops.

8-Ball · 07-24-2002, 06:05 PM

Is it possible to run two evaporators from one compressor/condenser?

bigben2k · 07-24-2002, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 8-Ball
Is it possible to run two evaporators from one compressor/condenser?

Absolutely, but why?

8-Ball · 07-25-2002, 03:30 AM

Just an idea I had.

I was thinking of running one evaporator on the cpu (like vapochill) and one cooling water in a res which could be pumped round blocks on the GPU, Northbridge, Hard Drive etc,

Either that or construct an evaporator to mount on the socket with a water channel running through it. Then you don't need a radiator in the water loop.

Tell me if you think it wouldn't work. The idea is to build my own case with all of this inside so I don't want to use peltiers or have loads of rads.

g.l.amour · 07-25-2002, 04:33 AM

u gonna buy a freight container as a case? dunno if your hdd is gonna benifit alot from being subzero. but for the sport i would say, go ahead, and post some pics, some overkill never hurts
;-)

8-Ball · 07-25-2002, 06:08 AM

This is the kind of thing I mean. The condenser and compressor will be in a separate compartment drawing air from the outside.

There will be one evaporator on the CPU and one in a holdover plate behind the mobo (the faint grey rectangle).

The main section will be insulated. There will be a water line running through the holdover plate which will directly cool the northbridge and the GPU, and the holdover plate will also reduce the air temperature in the case, just like a freezer.

Still needs lots of thought and I'm really busy at the moment, but I'll get there eventually.

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-25-2002, 09:28 AM

Ok, if you use your phase change system as a water cooler you don't need a radiator in your system anyway..

I run 3 evaporators.. All 3 of them are for water chilling.

Once I start hosting my own website I will put pics up of my project.. I remember someone here offering me web space.. but can't remember who..

Anyway.. Your best bet is just to do water chilling.. I have a total of 3 seperate evaps with about 12ft of copper 1/4" tubing each.. and 2 condensors.. about 11ft each.. both water cooled with a radiator in that system.

My entire system is water cooled..

A seperate water system cools the condensors which goes to a radiator.. back to the res..

Then another system goes into three seperate PVC 3" evaporator tubes.. gets chilled.. then goes to my CPU.. then a few other custom cooling things I made.. for the GPU and GPU memory.. then to the northbridge.. then to the system DDR.. and possibly do the southbridge.. plus there is a chip by the system memory.. that gets pretty hot.. I am going to do something with that.. I consider any part on my board that gets HOT to be a spot of weakness for overclocking

000 · 07-25-2002, 04:05 PM

SonixOS:

How insulated is your reservoir? It will make a big difference if it's not super insulated. I've seen -38c with mine and it's basically the same as yours, is your evaporator completely submerged that might make a difference (you want it to be completely submerged). Do you have any pictures of your setup,that might help some if you do.

Sorry for not replying for so long, I've been at siggraph.

-Sidney

SonixOS · 07-25-2002, 04:16 PM

000, Well its looks like a 1/4" thick plexiglass, I wish i asked for more but i got it for free. Its really really bad. After running the joint for a while, I try wiping off condensation and it comes right back on again after maybe 2 secs. Its really freaky. Its completely submerged. The evaporator is FREEEZING! I was thinking i would insulated if I can find a clear kind of insulation. I would make a bigger box, and fit it outside of it and fill the space inbetween with clear insulation. and where did u take that temp reading? Water or processor? And ur the one who got the same dehumidifier 65 pint kenmore joint that u got for like 70?

Whats siggraph?

thx ppl. I'll try to get a good thermometer and fit it in a T. my friend broke my (actually its my school's) alcohol thermometer. I sealed the sides of the top with silicone so its permanent. I'll ask my friend to take a picture of the setup and send it to me.

000 · 07-25-2002, 11:08 PM

Yup I'm the one that got the 65pint kenmore for $76, that temp was just in the water without the cpu on. If you're getting lots of condensation then insulation should help a bunch. You might want to try just covering the stuff with as many towels as you can, won't be perfect but will help you to see how much it'll help.

Siggraph is a graphics convention. Basically it's where companies like Nvidia, Ati, SGI, etc. and people from universities show off their latest graphics achievements.

-Sidney

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-26-2002, 12:08 AM

Yes.. Insulation will give you a HUGE drop in the temp dude..

bowman1964 · 07-26-2002, 08:20 PM

|PuNiSh3R| buddy i am at the point of running the cooler on a running pc.and guess what....i dont think the pc reads low enough because i let the evaporator get down to -45 or so and crank up the pc.wont read any lower than -15c.i ran everthing i could do to it.temps only dropped 2 degreec c.damm this block is one cooling machine.i am running it on my iwill xp333 with a xp1800 that would never run over 1700mhz with good water cooling.with 2.05volts.now it is running 1850mhz at 1.90 volts and i havent even started jacking it up.just started there.i tried something to i cut off the compressor to see how long it would take to heat you the cpu.went past a minute and never dropped a degree or 2.cut it off and i need to get my xp2100 unlocked and crank it up. ooooooooooooo yeaaaaaaaa

|PuNiSh3R| · 07-26-2002, 10:41 PM

Bowman, that's really cool.. I'm glad to hear you got such kick ass results! So whats the total building cost.. that is if u did the project again now knowing the knowledge that you need to correctly make the block one time around..

07-23-2002, 08:19 PM	#63
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	which antifreeze should i mix with pure water to use to cool my processor? I am thinking just get a nice bottle of Water Wetter and use that, why not? As for the water temp, I am using the 65 pint Dehumidifier (kenmore), it runs 2500 BTU (supposedly) so should I take it to an A/C guy and get him to check it out? I bought it used (store return) but still from sears. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

07-24-2002, 06:10 AM	#67
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	bowman, what is the BTU rating for your compressor? How come u get such good temps? Are you using the refrigerant directly or cooling the condensor with water? And how much should I use of that lowtox antifreeze punisher? I got a 19x12x6 reservoir. I am thinking of maybe filling it half way so how much antifreeze should I put in there? When i used the texaco antifreeze, i just kept adding more and more until I saw no frost over the condensor in the water. Good or bad to do? thanks guys, oh yeah bowman, u RULE! great temps man, hope I can get something like that. Tell me about the stuff u used in your system. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

07-24-2002, 01:02 PM	#72
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	I had -7C with a fan pointed at the compressor. I got like between 0-5 with a small rad with a rotron on it coolnig the compressor. So -7C is with the hot compressor. My Compressor USES R22! So there is no reason for why the water temps are soo high. ALso Should I have cool air cooling the hot condensor (maybe evaporator whatever one is the hot radiator thing) maybe the colder that is the colder my temps r gonna be. I am using a nice eheim 317 gph pump. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

07-24-2002, 02:13 PM	#74
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	Oh you're using straight freon cooling? I am using the evaporator to cool the water and THEN cool the processor. I am taking alcohol thermometer readings of the WATER not of the freon itself. I cant take a temp reading of the block with my 226w pelt because my thermometer has a round base and wouldnt take good readings. Plus the antifreeze freezes anyways on the block. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

07-24-2002, 02:25 PM	#75
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	(and here's the whisper quiet version): Let me answer some of your questions: First the block was insulated except the bottom of the cold plate. Yes the side of the block stayed close to -27C though most of the test. Although it did start to rise 5 minutes into the load at first, because I didn’t have enough Freon in the system so I added a little bit more and started to stay at -27C. Now the pelt was rated at 156 watts at 13.8 volts and I ran it with my 40 amp power supply, pelt draws close to 15 amp at load. Now the hot side of the pelt was against the bottom of the block and the block and pelt are the same size 50MM x 50MM.i machined a groove in the bottom of the block to put a temp probe close to the cpu core. So the probe sat against the hot side of the pelt and the block that’s how I did that. Now the compressor return (suction) line does have frost to the compressor with no load, but when running a load, no frost. The copper is alloy 110 I believe. The block has 4 mazes connected .200 x.300 x 5 1/2 feet long grooves. That gives the Freon long enough time to transfer the heat. Cost is about $200.00.but that includes the price of my proto type unit. Now I have dropped my temps even more by tweaking some more. May meter won’t read past -58F and it will go past that now no load. Now before everyone jumps up and says r22 boils at -40F so it can’t get that cold. Look at a chart and my compressor runs in a vacuum on the suction side of about 12 inches of vacuum. At that vacuum r22 boils about -60F. Now how come I get the temps I get, well...... I designed the system from scratch with the most efficient use of components I could. Compressor is 1/4HP found anything smaller doesn’t have enough suction to make a strong vacuum to get below -40F. The condenser is mounted horizontal with no tubes going up and down. This keeps the oil and Freon from collecting in a tube, also keeps a steady flow of Freon to the capillary tube. The capillary tube is run inside of the suction line from the compressor to inside the evap block. This makes the return gas super cool the incoming liquid Freon, making it colder and denser. The suction line is bent in a way that is almost impossible for liquid Freon to get into the compressor. the evaporator it self is my design with a injector nozzle right over the cpu die spraying super cooled Freon straight on the bottom plate of the evaporator and returning though a maze of almost 5FT 6"long. I used flexible automotive ac hose to allow easy flexing and mounting of the block to the board prototype unit I used copper and found it is very hard to bend even soft copper time and time again between changing cpu's. This is major failure of the units you buy online. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-23-2002, 03:45 PM	#61
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Ben, I am aware of the different boiling points of refrigerants..

07-23-2002, 08:39 PM	#64
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	If you have the money to waste.. he won't do anything that you could do yourself.. Go to a local Auto Zone and get this stuff from Prestone.. called LowTox Anti-Freeze It's like certified safe for the environment and wild life .. you can't miss it.. it's in a white jug.. It's good stuff cuz it won't be to harsh on your system.. and it works good... I think it's glycol based so use little as possible.. If you get a bit of ice up when your PC is off.. don't worry once you turn your PC on and the water warms up it will take care of any slush.

07-24-2002, 12:35 AM	#66
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	What is the boiling point of 22?

07-24-2002, 08:47 AM	#69
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Use as little anti-freeze as possible.. It sucks at heat transfer.. Atleast Glycol based AF is.. Anyway... go on the back of the bottle.. it gives a chart.. I think it's like.. -20F 40% AF 60% water.. -60F .. etc So if your water stays around 20F.. I would say start out with 10% AF and 90% water.. It doesn't matter if you have a bit of frost on the top of the water.. You just don't slush.. or ice in the water lines.. As long as you have a strongest enough pump though you shouldn't get ice in the lines no matter what.. as long as the water is flowing that is.. You aren't running these real great temps.. Don't get me wrong though.. You are cooling your compressor with that water too.. which just amazing that you are still get such low temps.. But let me tell you that the compressor NEEDS to get warm/hot.. Because it is compressing the freon from a liquid to a gas.. (or is it gas to liquid?) Either way .. it needs to compress the freon.. The compression is energy used which comes off in the form of heat.. so that the freon can turn into gas from a liquid and go into the condensor to get cooled.. I suppose if you super chilled your compressor.. you in theory wouldn't even need a condensor.. cuz that's all the condensor does.. is remove the heat from the refrigerant because of the compressing process. Oh, BTW.. Bowman is using a 1/4HP? (i think) compressor.. it's R22 which has a LOT lower boiling point then R-134A.. which is whats in your dehumidifer most likely.. same with my phase change setup.. Doesn't mean our systems can't be good too.. we just won't see -57F Bowman, I am running this setup, 30Ft Evaporator.. divided up into 3 coils 10ft each.. in 3" PVC pipes that have water flowing through them at 1/2" connections with a 360GPH pump... 20Ft condensor.. Divided up into 2 coils 10ft each.. in 3" PVC pipes that have water flowing through them at 3/8" connections accept for on the last pipe the exit barb is 1/4" (to keep up back pressure so the tubes stay 100% full at all times) with a 120GPH pump. Do you see any advantage to me water cooling my condensor..? What do you think about that setup? It's a 1/20HP compressor. R-134A. Oh and do you think my 360GPH pump will be good enough to keep water pressure up in the evaporator tubes so the entire evaporator coil is covered in water? What do you think about that water chiller idea? Should I have the exit on the last evaporator pipe be 3/8" or something to keep up back pressure? I am running a 1/2" water block n all .. Adios

07-24-2002, 08:48 AM	#70
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	You are wrong with those boiling points.. Bowman has -57F on his evaporator and he's running R22.. But let me speak for myself.. I run 134A and I see -18F.. Which is -27C .. which I know for a fact is the boiling point of 134A. Just didn't know 22 cuz Bowman is gettin that shiet so low..

07-24-2002, 02:52 PM	#76
bowman1964 Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: virginia usa Posts: 126	SORRY GUYS IF YOU THINK ME USING CAP LOCKS ON THE KEYBOARD MEANS I AM MAD.JUST MY PC AT WORK HERE USES CAP LOCKS ON ALL THE TIME SO I DONT PAY IT MUCH MIND. I AM HAPPY TO ANSER ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE I HAVE BEEN AROUND COOLING AND AC FOR 20 YEARS.I JUST DONT GET ONLINE MOST DAYS UNTILL AT NIGHT. I AM A SINGLE PARENT WITH TWO CHILDREN SO MY TIME SOMETIMES ISNT THE BEST.

07-24-2002, 03:23 PM	#77
ReallyUgly Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2	First Question: where can one find refrigerant.. i mean to make a Direct phase cooling system youre going to design the components part by part and then interconnecting them. This would mean that U would have too add refrigerant to the system .. where can one find that ? Second Question: Should u not have a separator (vapor / liquid) before the compressor ? Correct me if i am wrong, If u don't have a seperator the compressor could work abnormal (bubbles) and lead to explosion danger (potential) ? And if u don't have a seperator u should have enough evaporation area (right ??), I don't think cooling a cpu is sufficient ... or am i mistaking here. Evaporator design do u have a guide--> block on cpu) Third Question: For the reducing pressure U used cappilary tubes or ..?? did u contruct it u'r self ? GUIDE ? or just using one off a Fridge ...? how about a guide...

07-24-2002, 03:28 PM	#78
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	A guide would be nice, but what you're asking for, is HVAC training. Basically, a phase change system is composed of 4 parts: -compressor -evaporator -condenser -nozzle Yes, having a res helps to make sure that the pump only compresses what it's supposed to compress is good, but otherwise, it only affects performance. I found a source for refrigerants here , but it is in the USA. You should check your local shops. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-24-2002, 06:05 PM	#79
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	Is it possible to run two evaporators from one compressor/condenser?

07-25-2002, 03:30 AM	#81
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	Just an idea I had. I was thinking of running one evaporator on the cpu (like vapochill) and one cooling water in a res which could be pumped round blocks on the GPU, Northbridge, Hard Drive etc, Either that or construct an evaporator to mount on the socket with a water channel running through it. Then you don't need a radiator in the water loop. Tell me if you think it wouldn't work. The idea is to build my own case with all of this inside so I don't want to use peltiers or have loads of rads.

07-25-2002, 04:33 AM	#82
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	u gonna buy a freight container as a case? dunno if your hdd is gonna benifit alot from being subzero. but for the sport i would say, go ahead, and post some pics, some overkill never hurts ;-)

07-25-2002, 09:28 AM	#84
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Ok, if you use your phase change system as a water cooler you don't need a radiator in your system anyway.. I run 3 evaporators.. All 3 of them are for water chilling. Once I start hosting my own website I will put pics up of my project.. I remember someone here offering me web space.. but can't remember who.. Anyway.. Your best bet is just to do water chilling.. I have a total of 3 seperate evaps with about 12ft of copper 1/4" tubing each.. and 2 condensors.. about 11ft each.. both water cooled with a radiator in that system. My entire system is water cooled.. A seperate water system cools the condensors which goes to a radiator.. back to the res.. Then another system goes into three seperate PVC 3" evaporator tubes.. gets chilled.. then goes to my CPU.. then a few other custom cooling things I made.. for the GPU and GPU memory.. then to the northbridge.. then to the system DDR.. and possibly do the southbridge.. plus there is a chip by the system memory.. that gets pretty hot.. I am going to do something with that.. I consider any part on my board that gets HOT to be a spot of weakness for overclocking

07-25-2002, 04:05 PM	#85
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	SonixOS: How insulated is your reservoir? It will make a big difference if it's not super insulated. I've seen -38c with mine and it's basically the same as yours, is your evaporator completely submerged that might make a difference (you want it to be completely submerged). Do you have any pictures of your setup,that might help some if you do. Sorry for not replying for so long, I've been at siggraph. -Sidney

07-25-2002, 04:16 PM	#86
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	000, Well its looks like a 1/4" thick plexiglass, I wish i asked for more but i got it for free. Its really really bad. After running the joint for a while, I try wiping off condensation and it comes right back on again after maybe 2 secs. Its really freaky. Its completely submerged. The evaporator is FREEEZING! I was thinking i would insulated if I can find a clear kind of insulation. I would make a bigger box, and fit it outside of it and fill the space inbetween with clear insulation. and where did u take that temp reading? Water or processor? And ur the one who got the same dehumidifier 65 pint kenmore joint that u got for like 70? Whats siggraph? thx ppl. I'll try to get a good thermometer and fit it in a T. my friend broke my (actually its my school's) alcohol thermometer. I sealed the sides of the top with silicone so its permanent. I'll ask my friend to take a picture of the setup and send it to me. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

07-25-2002, 11:08 PM	#87
000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: TX Posts: 54	Yup I'm the one that got the 65pint kenmore for $76, that temp was just in the water without the cpu on. If you're getting lots of condensation then insulation should help a bunch. You might want to try just covering the stuff with as many towels as you can, won't be perfect but will help you to see how much it'll help. Siggraph is a graphics convention. Basically it's where companies like Nvidia, Ati, SGI, etc. and people from universities show off their latest graphics achievements. -Sidney

07-26-2002, 12:08 AM	#88
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Yes.. Insulation will give you a HUGE drop in the temp dude..

07-26-2002, 08:20 PM	#89
bowman1964 Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: virginia usa Posts: 126	\|PuNiSh3R\| buddy i am at the point of running the cooler on a running pc.and guess what....i dont think the pc reads low enough because i let the evaporator get down to -45 or so and crank up the pc.wont read any lower than -15c.i ran everthing i could do to it.temps only dropped 2 degreec c.damm this block is one cooling machine.i am running it on my iwill xp333 with a xp1800 that would never run over 1700mhz with good water cooling.with 2.05volts.now it is running 1850mhz at 1.90 volts and i havent even started jacking it up.just started there.i tried something to i cut off the compressor to see how long it would take to heat you the cpu.went past a minute and never dropped a degree or 2.cut it off and i need to get my xp2100 unlocked and crank it up. ooooooooooooo yeaaaaaaaa

07-26-2002, 10:41 PM	#90
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Bowman, that's really cool.. I'm glad to hear you got such kick ass results! So whats the total building cost.. that is if u did the project again now knowing the knowledge that you need to correctly make the block one time around..

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