Swiftech Rad issue.

[PieEyedPiper]

Hey guys, I'm brand new to the procooling forums, and I wish to dive head first into watercooling!
The Swiftech H20-120-A w/ radbox looks suitable for my needs, however, I'm really cautious about that black ice pro included for the rad. I'm looking for silence AND performance just like everyone else is I suppose, but my concerns are that while I can easily obtain a quieter 120mm fan for the rad, the rad may hold me back, especially with the quieter fan.
Without making this overly complex, my question is IS the black ice pro enough to cool my setup with an evercool 120mm fan and shroud in a pull config? OR would it be much better to get a dtek pro core w/ shroud and use that instead?
Can the dtek core even be mounted on the radbox? cause I have no where suitable in my lian li pc60 case for any rad at all. (not counting puny 80mm rads)

any help would be appreciated! thanks!

[JWFokker]

I'd get the Dtek core and shroud. And get a Sanyo Denki for the fan.

I'm not sure about the radbox. Hopefully BillA will notice this one.

[psychofunk]

I have seen a setup with the radbox and a chevette heatercore. I am not sure if there were any issues (other then sticking out 5" from the back of your case) with it but it is not really a complex thing so whatever they were if any I am sure you can sort them out.

[BillA]

it seems you do not understand the rad discussion that has transpired here over the past weeks/mos
do read Cathar's comments
'more' cooling with a heater core can be accomplished ONLY with SHE fans or the like
period

if the MCR120 is not sufficient, add another (or use a BI Pro II from another vendor)

you need to read on this, virtually all answers you will solicit on the 'net are going to be wrong

BTW, the radbox IS a most effective solution

[PieEyedPiper]

Thanks Bill,
and I have been reading, I really just can't come up with a complete answer - like you said so many ideas, and most are incomplete or wrong.
However, you've made it pretty clear - I would need a SHE or something else extreme to see better performance from something like the dtek rad, than just the BI Pro with a much more realistic Evercool 120mm Alu. fan.


I'd love for you to respond simply with a "Yes" if the best thing for me is to stick with a BI Pro and quiet fan.
Unless you have a different suggestion of course.

Thanks to everyone who posted.

[snowwie]

you gonna replace the fan they provide wit an evercool?

are you sure it's quieter?

I suggest you try both anyway, i think there is a reason swiftech provides a specific fan with their kit.

[BillA]

YES
the M fan has 'tolerable' noise, and better performance than comparable noise fans
I do not like the Evercool fans at all

[PieEyedPiper]

I assume the M fan is the one included with the h20-120 kit?
I just figured that since people claim the alu. evercools to be vibration free (term used lightly)..meaning less noise than most other fans, that it's 30 dba rating would be quieter than the included fan at 34 dba.
I just like my silence, of course having a fan spinning at only 1500rpm probably wont help out my temps much either.
Thanks for the input.

Which ever fan I decide on using (stock or not), hopefully using a shroud in a pull config will lessen the noise and increase the performance of the rad, rather than the stock config consisting of no shroud and push config.

[Ruiner]

How do those BI's respond to deeper shrouding? That built in plenum looks pretty shallow.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Ruiner

How do those BI's respond to deeper shrouding? That built in plenum looks pretty shallow.

I've tried it, using a hollowed out 120x25mm fan body as a plenum.
I've tried both on the pull and on the push sides. My only airflow measurement was my CPU reported temps (on die, inaccurate, blah blah blah) - anyway, I saw no difference in temps, using a panaflo L1A at 5V and 7V but I think the noise level went down slightly (unsure of this as my noise meter doesn't go low enough and as I wasn't able to do blind "A-B" tests it could have simply been a psychological effect). I did try using my wife as a sound measurement device: after adding a plenum I asked her if she thought it sounded any louder (was trying to set psychological expectations in the other direction) and she said "No... the same or maybe quieter?.
Finally, it's been pointed out to me that using a hollowed out fan body as a plenum may introduce some other problems (venturi - fan bodies have a "throat"). This throat isn't any smaller than the one the air just passed through (or is about to pass through - depending on push or pull) but maybe it does have an effect - at least on the pull side (where air is approaching the venturi as a somewhat parallel stream), but maybe not on the push side (where the air entering the venturi is a disorganized torus)

[BillA]

positive, but slight (less than a tenth °)

[PieEyedPiper]

so a shroud in a pull config, really wouldn't help much? (but will an unmeasureable amount)

interesting.

are there specific rads that do respond really well? regardless, however, I'm sticking with this rad, since your advice seems to be the most creditable.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by PieEyedPiper

are there specific rads that do respond really well?

Don't forget that the BI rads all have shrouds built in - just with very little plenum - so adding a "shroud" is really just adding more plenum.
You do see a big difference when adding a shroud to a radiator with no shroud - but then you are comparing the rad without any kind of shroud (so the fan is either right up against the fins and the only airflow is through the fins under the blades - or it's a ways back from the fins and the air also flows around the radiator) to a shroud with a decently sized plenum. Of course it works better.
If you were looking for something with more cooling capacity than the BI pro, and didn't have room for the BI pro II, you might think about the "classic" heater core shape 6"x6". This is often called the "chevette core" but, IMO you're better off with the core from a 70's vintage mercury montego (same fin size but you can just cut the inlet/outlet tubes off and use the stubs as barbs for 1/2" ID tubing). Coolingqworks makes a good shroud for cores of this size. Remember, though, that these cores are 2" thick and have significant resistance to air flow. If you're looking for an under-18dB PC, this probably isn't the way to go as you'd need more air pressure than most fans could generate at that noise level. Also remember that heater cores are, by their nature, a DIY solution - you have to figure out the right fan to use on your own.. When you buy a pre-assembled setup from someplace like Swiftech you are also getting their research to match fans with radiator air resistance.
Oh - also there's a heater core database (look through the stickied threads above). Currently (I think) you can only get this as an excel spreadsheet (other links are dead). There are a number of 1" thick heater cores listed - one of which might be the size you are looking for (no 6x6x1 ones, though or all us watercool-for-silence guys would be going crazy over it )
Oh, and while you're figuring all this out, remember to have fun!

[Ruiner]

I had a 6x7x1 heatercore at one point. It was out of a Geo Tracker.

[PieEyedPiper]

Great info guys,
one last question, what fan would you suggest for the low noise and as much flow as possible senario?
The evercool got shot down by bill, for unknown reasons, but I still wonder about it because its flow rating is 80cfm, higher than the fan included with the swiffy kit (~74cfm) and is only 30 dba rather than 34 dba.
are there any other contenders? I'd like to have at least 70cfm, while being as quiet as possible.
Thanks!

[BillA]

I tested it and it did worse
fan specs are insufficient, this from a 10yr ADDA rep - if you want to know, test
if you are after low noise, start testing from the most quiet up until you find one that meets your cooling requirements

we could provide more powerful, or quiet, fans; the "M" is a commercial compromise

[rundymc]

what is your definition of 'quiet'? There is such a thing as frequency
dbA values mean little to the average person

personally I use delta afb1212sh's in my system, undervolted to 5v, which I find 'quiet', as I'm a frequency whore
I have a relative who prefers a pair of whiny panaflo's as they don't sound as 'loud'

On topic, one of the better fans I have played with was an HEC fan with a .18A rating at 12v. It is not powerful (I won't venture guess at an airflow figure), but neither is it 'loud' or 'whiny', and at 7v its unnoticeable (though correspondingly weak). My take on it is that it would do well on a heatercore such as Cathar's Quad fan (at 12v at least)

[PieEyedPiper]

ok, well when i order my stuff I'll set up the stock fan (probably with a shorud to see if i get any real difference - maybe even just a noise decrease)
and if the M fan is too loud for me, I'll just have to switch it up and see if i like the evercool better, or maybe find a 38mm thick fan and volt mod it to acceptable noise levels.. I'd imagine the 38mm design has greater static pressure than most 25mm fans at a similiar rpm.
thanks again guys.

[BillA]

with a MCR120, dropping to 7V with the "M" fan will boost your overall C/W by 0.032°C/W (3.2°C increase with a 100W load)
- the noise will drop from 34 to ~25dBA

noise vs. performance, same old tale

[Etacovda]

The evercool fans at 12v are quite imposing. Ive heard stories of them ticking when undervolted, too; something to think about.

The 30db @ 80cfm is overly optimistic. Its like Tt's magical 21db @ 90cfm fan

[bobkoure]

Don't forget that some fans don't do as well as others when using PWM to undervolt them. Panaflos, for instance, are unhappy with PWM, but will start and run just fine (and quietly) with resistance used to reduce voltage (rheostat for adjustability) - or with stacked diodes to reduce voltage. See stacking diodes to reduce voltage.

The other thing to be aware of is that axial fans are wings. They have stall points. Normally stacking two fans together doesn't get you much but if you've undervolted to the point of being in stall, stacking a second identical fan (with plenum between to reduce inter-fan interference) may give you a better noise/airflow tradeoff than simply turning up the voltage.
It may not, too - one of those "try and see" things...

[JWFokker]

I don't know why anyone would use PWM in a fan controller, yet Vantec still does. I hate that damn buzzing when I turn my fans down. It's louder than the fans. That was $25 wasted. Now I have to get a Cooler Master Aerogate. At least it'll match my new case.

[HammerSandwich]

FWIW, my Evercool EC12025M12C is remarkably quiet at ~3.5-4V (Sunbeam, non-PWM). Airflow is very low, however.

[PieEyedPiper]

hah, yeah 3-4 volts wont be cooling much of anything.
I'm suprised the fan would start or run reliabley at that voltage.
My main problem is money.
I'd love to put together my own kit consisting of the aquaXtreme (mcp 600) pump with the pushit fit connectors,
6000-A
an decent fan(still hunting, though the M fan may do fine)
BI Pro with pushfit
a pack of those swiffy inserts
some clearflex
radbox
and the swiffy fill/bleed kit
oo lets not forget some clamps

now all things considered, this is a more expensive route than just getting the swiftech kit, but if I get the kit I end up with the mcp 650 (which I fear would be too loud and I really dislike the idea of requiring massive tubing and some reducing connectors to get back down to my 3/8" size for the rest of the loop - if the performance increase worth the noise and fittings hassle? I couldnt imagine requireing 317gph, I would imagine getting the same results with the 185gph of the aquaXtreme. And considering my aglergic reaction to noise, if I buy the kit, I may also have to get a fanbus to tone down my pump and 120mm fan. which means more $$$

ya ok, so I've got a little off topic, but thats ok, its my thread

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by PieEyedPiper

...considering my aglergic reaction to noise...

So you're looking for quiet? As in under 20dB?
My suggestions:
Eheim 1048 or Innovatek HPPS pump (HPPS is the quietest pump out there - 1048 not much louder).
Large frontal area but thin radiator. BI Pro II would be good if you can spend the money. A pair of very quiet 120mm axial fans. Pabsts are usually a good bet. I'd suggest setting the radiator up so you're pulling outside air through it (fans on the inside - the "pull" side). You might get a bit less noise if you add a pair of 120mm shrouds (I think you can just use a pair of the coolingworks for-BI "shrouds" which are really plenum extenders.)
Look at all the waterblocks Phaestus has gone to the trouble of testing - most actually perform quite well with 1048/HPPS flow. The Swiftech 6000 series is a good bet, as is the whitewater.

Again, if you want quiet, you want a thin radiator - not a heater core (at least not a 2" thick one), not a d-tek (essentially a heater core), and not a BI Xtreme. If you want lots of cooling capacity, you want a radiator with larger frontal area - getting thicker doesn't do much for you - but does demand more air pressure, which translates out to more fan noise.
If you aren't overclocking, the BI Pro should be just fine. If you want to overclock you're going to have to decide between noise and larger radiator frontal area...