Giving my test equipment away?

[pHaestus]

First of all I have to say that performing cooler testing and reviewing for enthusiast websites is a hobby that I have had for about 7 years now and I do not see myself making a permanent split from them. But at the moment it is true that I am not doing anything with my equipment, and that some of it was purchased with money donated by Procooling readers or was donated directly by Procooling readers.

So anyway, Joe has found someone else who I do not know who has offered to take up all Procooling test duties but would need my equipment. Would you guys want me to send him the equipment purchased or donated by the readers? There is good and bad with this.

The potential good is you may see testing done before I return to that hobby. This person might be outstanding and a huge positive influence on Procooling and the wcing community.

The bad is that I am not at all convinced that anyone else will be able to make my cobbled together system work well, that person may also quit testing pretty quickly, and his quality as a tester is pretty much an unknown quantity. Oh also you are guaranteeing that I will NOT be able to return to testing at any time in the near future because all my equipment would have to be repurchased.


For what it's worth, my preference would be to provide this new person with some of my older equipment not in regular usage any more (GPI flowmeter, digitec thermometers, lots of YSI probes, etc) and let them prove themselves capable. Since they want to do die sim testing, it would at that point be complimentary data to my bare die A64 system and not competing (a good thing). Since my older gear is all owned by me, I could probably recoup a little money and put it towards the last pieces of equipment that I still need. But again I am not promising that I'll have a review up in the next week or anything so don't hold your breath on that.

So anyway, I encourage our readers to comment here on this idea. Especially welcome are comments from our donors, as it's really your stuff after all.

[Marci]

Depends on the person, their background, their experience, and their IQ / ability to read and learn and digest a whole lotta maths n' theory etc

Agree u should pass on older stuff to let em prove their worth first before parting with any big guns... s'certainly something I wouldn't undertake, can say that fer sure...

[bigben2k]

I agree with Marci, I was going to say exactly the same.

I believe that you are an essential part of ProCooling (you being here is one reason I'm still here), and as long as you're willing to stay on it, even if it means taking a break once in a while, then go ahead, keep testing.

If Joe wants to add another tester for ProCooling, that's be great. Few review sites have more than one tester, and this would add to ProCooling's credentials.

[Joe]

I think there should be some good open dialog about this with the guy.

Laxman is the user name hes under, and hes PM'd me a few times talking abotu wanting to step up to do this. I personally think its up to pH, the readers, and myself in the end. There is a serious lack of people who are willing to step up for anything, and he seems pretty serious... I'll let him discuss his pan himself.

I IM'd pH mainly to give him a heads up because the guy mentioned he wanted to talk to pH a bit about his setup, and get some pointers first. I am the one who thought that "well if pH isnt really doing much with that gear... and this guy seems to be on the right path... maybe we could get some of that stuff to the guy so he can just rock it." Pending if pH thinks the guy is up to the task.

[Joe]

I hope he doesnt mind me posting this, but here is what he sent me in PM so you get an idea of what this guy is driving towards:

Originally Posted by laxman

Well Ill do it if you want and if the members of this site accept it to be good enough. Right now I am look at a .001 res and .01 accuracy for the thermometer (not including the .1% error for the probe), probably around .75% for Dp, and 2% error for the flow meter over .2 to 20 GPM. Overall the percent error will be around 3% error or +- .0033 on a .1 C/W water block. To me this acceptable but we have a tough crowd here. Also for the heat die I will be using this silicon heater: http://www.minco.com/heater_config/model.aspx?PN=HR5293 capable of 145 watts. The good thing about this heater is that the effective heating area in only about a mm bigger then 14mm^2 die. So this allow for lower heat loss but I will measure and account for this too. Insulation will by 1/8 phenofilic resin (2 layers) and spray insulation. I will also try to create some kind of real cpu simulation, I have to talk to PH about that. Hows that sound?

he does seem open to suggestions and info, so feel free to speak up (not that procooling has ever had issue with that hehe )

[pHaestus]

I am look at a .001 res and .01 accuracy for the thermometer (not including the .1% error for the probe), probably around .75% for Dp, and 2% error for the flow meter over .2 to 20 GPM.

None of my equipment meets those specifications.

[Brians256]

Interesting idea, but I've not seen anything by laxman yet. Doing what pH did is more than just setting up equipment. It's also writing skill, and a whole host of other things.

[Joe]

the dude will need to prove himself. Thats a simple fact and I think he knows it.

[laxman]

I am Josh Carley but am registered under laxman because I have played lacrosse for almost my whole life. Over the past 6 months I have probably put in over 1000 hours into researching water blocks, computers, cooling, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and peltiers but so far I am no expert. Although through this research I have decided to create my own water block with a sort of new and radical design but Ill yet you be the judge of that when I finish it. I have also quickly learned that a lot of people don't view cpu testing as useful as die sim testing. So I have set out to make a die sim to test my water block and others. Well thats a little about me.

I know that I am little new to this site and haven't really proven myself to even be smart or a good tester. Although if you guys will bare with me I will prove myself and hopefully create some useful information and data. Some bad news about my proposed bench though, as I was away from the computer at the ending of 2 my auctions I was not able to win the flow meter or the thermometer. This is a huge setback as they would have been prefect for the task but I will keep looking. One caveat is that this bench will not include a water chiller to hold temperatures constant. I simply cannot afford to dish out for one of those. The other small caveat is that it will not be complete for months. As so far all I have done is gathered equipment. My last word for now is that I am flexible. I know demanding this site as I have seen people be flamed and crushed under sheer opinion. So if you guys think my bench isn't good enough I will work with you and make it better (of course under the restrictions of my wallet).

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by laxman

I am Josh Carley but am registered under laxman because I have played lacrosse for almost my whole life. Over the past 6 months I have probably put in over 1000 hours into researching water blocks, computers, cooling, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and peltiers but so far I am no expert. Although through this research I have decided to create my own water block with a sort of new and radical design but Ill yet you be the judge of that when I finish it. I have also quickly learned that a lot of people don't view cpu testing as useful as die sim testing. So I have set out to make a die sim to test my water block and others. Well thats a little about me.

I know that I am little new to this site and haven't really proven myself to even be smart or a good tester. Although if you guys will bare with me I will prove myself and hopefully create some useful information and data. Some bad news about my proposed bench though, as I was away from the computer at the ending of 2 my auctions I was not able to win the flow meter or the thermometer. This is a huge setback as they would have been prefect for the task but I will keep looking. One caveat is that this bench will not include a water chiller to hold temperatures constant. I simply cannot afford to dish out for one of those. The other small caveat is that it will not be complete for months. As so far all I have done is gathered equipment. My last word for now is that I am flexible. I know demanding this site as I have seen people be flamed and crushed under sheer opinion. So if you guys think my bench isn't good enough I will work with you and make it better (of course under the restrictions of my wallet).

Personal interest dictates that you should be a second tester, and not have the new gear. Your age might also be seen as prohibitive.

my 2c, at any rate.

[Joe]

Dude that means we need to get a "first" tester!

[Etacovda]

simple, someone destroy the WoW servers

I can understand pH's lack of motivation to test, though - shitloads of work for what will be, in the end, a whole bunch of bickering centered around a few 'regulars' and either two completely different opposing sides who think they're right, or zero movement forward for various reasons. Theres been a definite downturn in posters recently, not hard to see why...

[bobo5195]

i would volenteer but from the looks of it in a wek i will by bound to developing cooling systems for british submarine fleet if things pay off. As such i am under a mega NDA and any results i would gain would result in me having to kill ppl, mwahaha.

radical and new are not common phrases in cooling tech so i call rubish. I also like to prupose some kind of pop test to decide worthiness for this equipment.

[BillA]

what does testing on your time of other stuff have to do with an NDA ?
bs

testing is not simple, and there is a learning curve
Josh, with the equip I'm familiar with those 'uncertainty' #s are pretty well unbelievable, lots of points avged . . . . ?
if you say stuff like that you will be called in a heartbeat
suggest you demonstrate walking first, as Lee has done

I agree pH, let's see where it goes

EDIT
note that I support all testers with an inclination to 'get into it',
no different than at any other time

[Long Haired Git]

Independent reviews and testing is one thing, developing a block is another.

[laxman]

Look I know that this all a very rough estimate at best because right now I am not even sure how this bench is going to shape up. As of right now I don't have good thermometer which in some respects is the one of the most important pieces of equipment. Although I am looking at either Digitec 5810 or a Dalec rtd model. To your note about a learning curve, I know there is one and a steep one at that but that is why I said you guys will have to work with me. That will help improve my testing to a standard that you want it to be at. Also to Etacovda and bobo5195, I know that it would be much better for someone else to test my block on a more respected bench but the reason I am creating this block in the first place is for a research project. Therefore I have to develop and test the block myself to create my own data. Also I know that the my idea seems radical or new to me but it might seem mundane to you so that is why I will let you be the judge of that. All I am saying is that I will have a working and probably good test bench so I thought why only test one block. If you guys don't want me to then I wont.


Also btw PH you digitec thermometer is supposed to be a good thermometer and the YSI probes are the pretty much the best in the market. So those would be very useful to me but like you said I suggest you even think about lending or giving anything to me before I prove myself. I have only found a few other types of probes that really beat out YSI probes and those are PRTs and 4 wire RTDs. I found a guy who is sell PRTs for very cheap so I am going to have to check that out. Other then the thermometer the only other major problem is a good flow meter. I would like a flow meter that has a good low end range to. In other words below .5 GPM but I don't know if I will be able to find that. This is the best I could find so far: http://cgi.ebay.com/FLOW-METER-WATER...QQcmdZViewItem but it is a rotameter that only offers around 5% accuracy.

Do you think that an Iwaki 30rzt pump will be big enough to cope with the pressure drop of all the equipment and still provide good flow rates?

[BillA]

2 or 4mm mag unit
Yokogawa on eBay, be patient
I paid $50 for the one I'm now using, be patient

[bobo5195]

[quote=BillA]what does testing on your time of other stuff have to do with an NDA ?
bs

It’s confidential because the company I am working for is in that region. By carrying out those purposes I am in danger of risking their IP. Their IP is government property and covered by national security arguments so i could not speak about it, even if that approach is potentially useful. In simple language it is not good form.

By the approaches I may use there is a small chance that some foreign agent could find out something about a product that they would otherwise would not and so you would not reveal anything in an public forum. Simple job ethics means as an engineer you do not share knowledge on the job unless specifically authorised Sharing ideas yes, general approaches and such but hard data is owned by the company it is ultimately all they own and what the entire company worth. Never take up a hobby in the area you are working it’s to much hassle and can lead to conflicts of interest. Stews data on jet impingement blocks for example is worth good money. A lot of money, possibly 5 figures to the right source, I could well done I could well see a good picture being worth 6 figures for the whole caboodle as PC water cooling is an insignificant part of the whole picture for these kinds of things. To someone making steel this kind of knowledge is worth mega bucks if applied right.

Besides given how big the companies check book allowance is the equipment I would be working with would make DIY setups look annoying and Stone Age so I would not like to go back and I would buy my own.
on the other topic josh if you think you have a unique approach then go for it but at least if ppl are around declare it so ppl can critique and say if it has been done before saving you time / money. You may not want to declare it in a public forum that is fine, personally I wouldn’t as well but still ask on the side. If you PM with something I will give you an honest critique and I promise I will not take your idea. If you can honestly come up with a new idea in fluid cooling it would be worth an awful lot of cash. Spec’s you seem to want for equipment seem harsh (not least because the flow probably varies more than that) but such is life.

[BillA]

if you wish
I am up to my neck and beyond in such, and have little difficulty in distinguishing what is an outside activity
- but this is also because of who/what I am (the person)

note that comments such as 'I know but cannot say' are disingenuous, at best
if you do not wish to speak, scoot or shut-up

testing is the development of data related to the DUT, leave the rest at the door

[bobo5195]

testing makes assumptions about what to test for and how you would want to evaluate it. You make assumptions that things are not going to vary that in fact do. either way the legal headache would just be too much.

I shouldn't of included that phrase but they took me out for a meal and much free booze so i was a little lubricated. The main point was new is a relative term and it is hard to find anything truely novel.

Unlike you bill my 60 wpm typing speed and near dyslexia means i could go on for hours sadly it seems more of a handicap than a help.

I can name a few ideas off the top of my head that are novel but hardly revolutionary. Could put turbulators on the entrance to the jets on storm style blocks for example. You can get more flow down a tube using turbulent flow (used alot in gas pipelines). This raises mean entrance velocity which is an important perfromance factor. Could also try using liquid metal solid state pumping systems to induce pressure waves in blocks which will improve performance a fair old bit. Not new but a little novel. they are all attempts and may improve things but they equally may not be worth the pay off.

[BillA]

I guess I do not understand
if you are precluded from talking, why do you do so ?
novel testing ? no, don't think so

there are changes afoot that will affect all appraisals on this forum, and in good time they will be apparent (not my work BTW)
but the parametric/validation testing merely accommodates the DUT (where I am at)

in the meantime life continues
I still say you need some practical experience, this is indeed the role of employers (for those not doing their own thing)

good luck, but effort and skill trump luck

[laxman]

This is all why I am building a test bench. If an idea is unproven then it is a useless and will be an unaccepted one at that. Also like bobo said a public release is not the greatest idea so if it is a success (which from your talk seems less likely) then the general populous will not hear about it for a long time. For now though I think it is best to find a reviewer for this site. If it is me or not I think that this site still needs to do reviews as I always have thought that this site's reviews are influential to the community.

[BillA]

Josh
jump into it, you will be supported
sooooo hard to find movers, lots of talkers

yes, the more testing the better - should NOT be an exclusive

[talcum]

pH,
I donated test equipment, money and time, not to ProCooling, but to you because I had faith in your ability and willingness to do a rigorous test. If you want to give it away, it's up to you, but (always a qualifier) I would like your assurance to me, and all the other folks who contributed, that you're convinced the user in question can and will perform tests that have some semblence of an experimental method. That the data could be defended under peer review. Otherwise, you will have impoverished yourself and the rest of us for no good cause.

-talcum

[BillA]

as I read pH's post, it is the initial gear he bought from me
?
quite agree, walk before running, always been a peer review here