Funding the Procooling Testbed!

[pHaestus]

On Bill's urging, I am going to start a thread on how to pay for improvements and upgrades to my test equipment. Several suggestions have been floated:

1)Mfgrs could sponsor the test bench. Ads run on a page that describes the test equipment, etc. There are concerns that this might be viewed as a loss of independence and objectivity. The advantage here is that the people who directly benefit from the press of our reviews bear the cost.

2) Individuals could donate money. I feel a little weird about this but I guess that readers also benefit from an improved testbed and so there is some justification.

3) I could just suck it up and pay for it out of my own pocket. Yea this would be the best solution for both mfgrs and readers, but if I spend much more money on cooling gear/test equipment in the next few months my creditors will be using my scrotal sac as a changepurse.

4) Waterblocks and other review items could be sold off/raffled off after the review and proceeds funneled back into testing.

That's about all I have here at the moment (other than people actually buying Pro/Grills )

So what are my needs? There are two MAJOR upgrades that need to be made. First of all, the lack of pressure drop data is a serious flaw in the current reviews. A good differential pressure transmitter system is really key to making the wb comparisons more useful in buying decisions. It would also be quite useful for radiator comparisons and a million other things. This will require buying a good DMM that can read frequency and it will likely require calibration of both.

The other major improvement needed is a proper die simulator. I have a copper die sim identical to JoeC's Athlon simulator, but it has 2 heater cartridges in it instead of the thin heaters. The problems with it right now are I need to remove the big copper socket from it so the top can be insulated, I need a 0-24VDC adjustable PSU for powering the heaters, and I need to purchase DMMs for measuring current and voltage.

The die simulator keeps me up at night sometimes. Socket A is on its way out, my test system is pretty finicky, and a mistake in mounting or a leak or a power surge or a million other things that DO happen could kill the whole system. A die simulator would allow me to mount Intel or AMD blocks of any style on the same heat source and control things much better. I HAVE to upgrade to this in the next 6 months because I don't think my CPU soldering tricks are going to work on newer chips (pins too dense and small and Intel doesn't even give one access to the "hot" diode).

The other issue I have right now is automation. We can talk about that if you like. GPIB WILL be a consideration on all instruments I buy though for sure.

Anyway I want to start a dialogue with you guys to see what you think is acceptable and to make the entire process transparent and out in the open. No one's buying any special secret access to the site I can promise and I want to dispell any talk of that before we even begin.

So what do you guys think?

[Joe]

I didnt see "sell the kids off into forced labor" as an option, so I am all outta ideas...

[pdf27]

I personally don't think that running ads for the kit you review would compromise your objectivity (provided it is clear they are ads and seperate from the text). However, I'm not exactly sure how some manufacturers would take to this - would they only want to take space on a good review? If so, you're going to have problems appearing objective.

Individual donations might work - a lot depends on how much money is needed, and if you will have future cash needs as well. More information needed here really.

I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to expect you to foot the bill yourself - there are a lot of people out there who benefit from this site, and you alone paying for it seems wrong.

What currently happens to review items, and how do you get hold of them in the first place?

[scsiguy]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

On Bill's urging, I am going to start a thread on how to pay for improvements and upgrades to my test equipment. Several suggestions have been floated...

What is the estimated cost of the upgrades ?? Depending on that,
maybe a combination of the above choices.

[pHaestus]

pdf: No not going to sell mfgrs ads for reviews themselves. Instead think of it like a NASCAR car. You pay money for a piece of the Procooling testbed, and in return there's a page that details the full testing setup and methods with a list of contributors (like the stickers on the cars). The danger here is if some smaller company doesn't donate and has a poor review of their product, they may well blame bias on my part rather than their own R&D.

As far as cost goes it's pretty dependent upon the whims of ebay. I would be very surprised if the DPT setup and needed gear for the die simulator cost less than $700US by the time it was all calibrated and running. On the automation the sky's the limit

[BillA]

we can talk, and/or we can do
lets focus on doing, but we may need a 'framework' within to do this

I suggest developing multiple revenue streams:
1) the grilles are on Cooltechnia, great (could be viewed as a donation, pay but don't ship - ok by Bruce ?)
2) individual donations, fine by me; you have a paypal acct ? (or should we pin the bills to the inside of the passed hat so you don't hear the sound of coins)
(you could have a Donor List, no amt shown)
3) not suggested, I literally bankrupted my family following this path (but got a good job)
4) won't cover even a meter, and is tacky; use 'em as prizes for something

several direct questions wrt corporate support:
Do you wish equipment donations ?
Do you wish cash donations ?
May I, as an individual, make a donation (although I work for Swiftech) ?

I think the banner bit is a poor approach, look at the flack we have given other review sites over just this issue

[BalefireX]

Well, here is my input:
I'm a moderator at another computer related site, and I think that the generosity of people sharing this hobby is pretty amazing, even for silly things. One of our long time and very active members (about as close to staff as you could be without being staff) was getting married, so we had the idea one day to collect money to buy him a wedding present.

In one week, we managed to collect $400, mostly in $5 and $10 donations, with very little effort (just a thread and a paypal acct for people to pay into). I am nearly certain that had we organized it better (ran it for more than a week, advertised it on the front page rather than in the forums, etc) we could have easily doubled that. Therefore, I don't think it anywhere near impossible that $700 could be raised from user donations.

[pHaestus]

Bill: It would be very hard for me to pass up the test equipment that is needed. I'm sure you know that though. I agree that lots of banners and raffling off review items is in pretty poor taste. On the other hand I have to very aggressively protect the site's image and the perception of the community.

[9mmCensor]

1) Sounds like a pretty OK idea. It could cause some people to think that it is a biased opinion, but then people do that even without such endorsements.

2) Sounds like a great idea, and the generosity of those members with the fiscal ability to do so is astounding.

3) I can only see this as a last resort or as a supplement to other such methods.

4) I personally don't see anything wrong with it and wouldn't mind buying a block from you.

Alternatives.
A) Offering independant testing for a fee to people and companies.
B) B & E
G) :shrug:

[BillA]

perception trumps reality when casting aspersions,
those that seek to defame can always find, or create, a red herring

testing for a fee is something I have a bunch of experience at doing,
not a viable economic model unless one really wants to work for $5/hr (at best)
- this is the difficulty, what is enjoyable as a hobby is much less so when there is an obligation to fulfill;
and resentment follows quickly at $5/hr
-> if one tests for a fee, it should be realistic

here is an example:
were pHaestus to test wbs at $50 ea., I/Swiftech could (and WOULD !) provide him ~50/mo (I have 4+ projects going right now),
and the peeps say "jeez, look at that; 1st order is $2500";
the catch is that even working 20hrs/day, 50 wbs could not be finished in a month
(the absolute bargan for Swiftech is getting a super-tech with analytical capabilities for a few bucks/hr, and believe me pHaestus would soon resent my pilfering his time - LOL)

now the process can be semi-automated, but that is yet more money and really only affects the data acquisition; machine time is the same

let's return to the $
so pHaestus:
are you accepting donations yet ?

[trit187]

i think raffeling off the wb's really wouldn't br that bad... sell 100 raffel tickets $1 each, (or more if you wanted) this is assuming that the people giving you the wb's don't mind letting you keep them. but that compounded with other items reviewed could provide a decent sort of income for upgrading. some may view it as tacky but look at the other side, better test equipment, and those that benifit are the memebers of this site.

[nikhsub1]

pHaestus, did you ship those blocks back yet? If not, sell them both and use the $ for the equipment. I figure that should be good for about $125 or so. If you did send them, I will sell them off when I get them.

Pot Now = $125

How about the rest of you?

[pHaestus]

lol I shipped them today. You should get $125US for the Little River whitewater alone

[BillA]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

lol I shipped them today. You should get $125US for the Little River whitewater alone

taken as an affirmative, I suppose

pHaestus
how many amps @ 24V ?

you will have to address mfgr involvement - or preclusion

[Joe]

Step 1. Take over ProCooling
Step 2. ????
Step 3. PROFIT

[pHaestus]

the heater cartridges are both ~80W at 24V I believe so somewhere in the neighborhood of 8A. I know where this is going (all test equipment donations has to go through Swiftech, right?). I personally feel like the ends justify the means (because I am keenly aware of my current limitations) but have concerns that "Procooling" and "sellout" will get uttered together.

[Joe]

But people are far to busy still using the fail safe combo's of ProCooling and Slacking Bitches, or ProCooling and Bastards!, or my favorite ProCooling - They still around?

[pHaestus]

haha fair enough.

[Cathar]

I would be happy to pay whatever fee is needed. In fact I was going to offer one of the upcoming silver XS blocks I am making to auction off for whatever.

Bill, I guess that the stipulation to prevent a mass-loading of Phaestus is that he gets to decide what he does with the data, for which the publication of every bit of data, including pictures of the internals of the blocks, which ahead of a block's release would be quite undesirable for any manufacturer.

Anyway, whether it be donation of equipment or a nominal fee, that's fine with me.

[nikhsub1]

Personally I think that this should be funded by private donations only. This way you have no smeared lines. Additionally, you have no favors owed etc, etc. I guess this assumes that the donators wish nothing in return except good results. Hopefully, that will be the case (re the donations, not the test results).

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Personally I think that this should be funded by private donations only. This way you have no smeared lines. Additionally, you have no favors owed etc, etc. I guess this assumes that the donators wish nothing in return except good results. Hopefully, that will be the case (re the donations, not the test results).

...or alternately all results that are to be published must be free of "donation" to preserve independence. Besides, a published review brings in revenue anyway via banners.

However, Bill's model of private testing could be used by Phaestus to fund the testbed. Hire himself out at a realistic $xx/hr with the testing schedule agreed upon before-hand. Should fund his time as well as the testbed. Allows for manufacturers to have their internal results independently confirmed, without having them published.

[pHaestus]

That actually causes more problems because then we have Bill and/or Swiftech putting money into my testbed so that other mfgrs (who lack advanced R&D capabilities) can send me blocks and money to get cheap testing (compared to hiring an engineer).

[9mmCensor]

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Personally I think that this should be funded by private donations only. This way you have no smeared lines. Additionally, you have no favors owed etc, etc. I guess this assumes that the donators wish nothing in return except good results. Hopefully, that will be the case (re the donations, not the test results).

What happens when the individuals have an agenda? Will lines be drawn to determine who is an indivdual and who isn't?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

That actually causes more problems because then we have Bill and/or Swiftech putting money into my testbed so that other mfgrs (who lack advanced R&D capabilities) can send me blocks and money to get cheap testing (compared to hiring an engineer).

I didn't say that private testing had to be cheap. Remember, you'd be an outsourced test bed. Price it competitively. Bill has more experience in this than I though, and would be able to offer the best advice. I was thinking more along the lines of $50+/hr. Price it to suit the level of demand and your time. Price it at a level where the service can be useful, but not cheap enough to be abused.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

That actually causes more problems because then we have Bill and/or Swiftech putting money into my testbed so that other mfgrs (who lack advanced R&D capabilities) can send me blocks and money to get cheap testing (compared to hiring an engineer).

1) I am here as Bill Adams, what I say is a reflection of my views
2) I can act in the capacity of Swiftech, but I say so if that is what I am doing
3) I, personally, am inclined to help out with some equipment; could buy it on eBay and have it shipped to pHaestus - pretty transparent
4) on behalf of Swiftech, I can say that Gabe and I had a real belly laugh at the thought of being able to get wbs tested for $50, still funny now

I have no qualifications of any sort on donations I may make.

Cathar
thats what Gabe and I were laughing about, what is your estimate of the machine time for a wb test, and the actual man hours involved ?
so at $50/hr, . . . .

I believe and hope that pHaestus simply keeps this as a hobby, for his and our entertainment