Peltier Blocks

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Jabo

Oh, don't mind me then d00de. Just keep shoving chunks of copper into your mill if that tickles your fancy Without theory and basic mental constructs building ability human race would still be in stone age
But seriously, as you righlty remarked, there is alwyas more than one way of skinning the cat. I simply do not have time for trial&error methods of engineering...
I never make prototypes, it has to work off the bat, or workbench If I do anything myself (very rare occurances) it represents the best the current state of my theory can produce at given moment. I am not saying it does not evolve, of course it does!
As far as time taken to 'think it all up'.... well I'd rather stop here

Quite wrong. DIY is where progress is done, not theory. Theory is a complete waste of time if it is not put into production. I am quite tired of all the theory and no action around this place letely. Whats the point? it is a freaking water block for a computer not a nuclear reactor.

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by Butcher

Actually I think you'll find we progressed well past the stone age without much in the way of theory. Iron for instance was discovered by luck rather than any theory that red rocks might produce a useful metallic element when heated.

Discovery of metals was based on abilt of cenceptual lateral thinking. From ready product (accidentaly found shiny bit of molten metal) to recreation of this process (melting and knowing what to heat up) took fair amount of imagination and abstract tinking, don't you think? (no pun intended )

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Quite wrong. DIY is where progress is done, not theory. Theory is a complete waste of time if it is not put into production. I am quite tired of all the theory and no action around this place letely. Whats the point? it is a freaking water block for a computer not a nuclear reactor.

Yeah, I am catching your drift m8, don't get me wrong. You are right, just yappoing away, however clever, is empty without action resultng.
Similarly producing variations on the same theme based on the same old design is equally useless I'd rather see no action for a while and then something worthwhile resulting than constsnt stream of tweaked pin/fin designes!

[Les]

Cold-plate Spreading Resistance revisited.
1) Think* Bill is 90% right indicating h~2w/c.However this should be expressed as h~868w/m2*c for calculation purposes.
The difference is mostly academic :

Have included the Total Resistance of the Coldplate.
This is obtained via:
Coldplate Resistance(c/w)= Total Resistance(Waterloo) - Contact Resistance
Contact Resistance= 1/(Area x h) , where h is expressed in w/m2*c.

The effect on Die Temperatue :

Kryotherm is used.
Rc is the Coldplate Resistance + 0.0833c/w( TIM resistance for a 11x11mm layer)



* Think I am wrong in equating h to the heatsink's Thermal Conductance(w/m2*c).
The Film Coefficient(h) is the Thermal Conductance of the Coldplate's cold surface. This is taken as the [Reciprocal of the sum of Resistances] x Area.
Resistance(to ambient)= PeltierC/W + Heatsink(C/W to ambient) +TIMs(C/W)

Resistance(to ambient) is minimum when Heatsink(C/W to ambient)=0 and TIMs(C/W)=0.
The Film Coefficient(h) is maximum when Resistance(to ambient) is minimum
The Film Coefficient(h) will always be less than the inherent h~868w/m2*c Thermal Conductance of the Peltier.
Kryotherm suggests that
PeltierC/W ~ 0.5(actually 0.420) and hence the Maximum Film Coefficient(h) ~ 868w/m2*c (actually 1033w/m2*c) :

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Jabo

Similarly producing variations on the same theme based on the same old design is equally useless I'd rather see no action for a while and then something worthwhile resulting than constsnt stream of tweaked pin/fin designes!

Who are you refering to? Me or Swiftech? Either way your incorrrect. In any event if the numbers continue to get lower there is certainly nothing usless about it. What is useless is taking days to make a calculation on cold plate thickness when you can mill every size of thickness from 5/8" to 1 mm in less than an hour and test each one. Once your special calculations are complete you STILL have to test each size to make sure you theory is correct. Why waste time calculating..... it is a cold plate for christ sake. Flat peice of metal!

And where is all YOUR work posted on the subject? Where is your blocks, your plates, ect... Who are you to judge what is usless?

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Who are you refering to? Me or Swiftech? Either way your incorrrect. In any event if the numbers continue to get lower there is certainly nothing usless about it. What is useless is taking days to make a calculation on cold plate thickness when you can mill every size of thickness from 5/8" to 1 mm in less than an hour and test each one. Once your special calculations are complete you STILL have to test each size to make sure you theory is correct. Why waste time calculating..... it is a cold plate for christ sake. Flat peice of metal!

And where is all YOUR work posted on the subject? Where is your blocks, your plates, ect... Who are you to judge what is usless?

I am nobody d00de, take a chill pill, will ya?
I wasn't making any personal remarks nor was I attacking anyone. THis is free public forum and freedom of speach is as far as I know one of the foundations of western life style
If you feel offended by my general remarks I am sorry
Maybe it is my general resources and costs conciousness that drives me through research first to production later. I personally would rather spend time designing things and fine tuning them as far as possible in virtual world and then, when theoretical means are exhausted, only start making working model. In this way I feel I am contributing my little bit towards saving energy and resources (not to mention I do not have time nor means to do countless prototypes as well as calcs take no time for me-theorycising deas take time mind you).
Trial and error development methods are as valid as theoretical research and practiced by countless invemtors worldwide.
Sorry again if I treaded on your toes, I did not mean to.

P.s. Flatness of cold plates is one of the reasons why ther are not performning as well as they could

[Jabo]

Les, your data is most interesting. I only wish the resolution was finer a bit.
The reason behind it is that it looks like the optimal thickness for all grpahs is the same.
I know it is not but it looks like differences are extremely small and can be disregarded.
It is very good news for costs of production since it'd mean 'one size fits all'
I jus wonder how this relationship behaves for more powerful elements and more complex cold plate geometry? Are differences going to be equally minuscule?

[Butcher]

hmm, "d00de" is one of the most irritating "words" I've seen on the internet in quite a while.

[Varsis]

what about HaX0r?
hehe.

[kizzap]

bloody hell i think i started a flame war...and no-one has answered my question!!!

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by kizzap

does anyone have any designs for waterblocks that would be suitable to cool a 50mm peltier that can be build out of 3mm copper sheet? I can only get 3mm copper sheet here and i was lucky to be able to get it. at the moment i am desperate to find a suitable design.

Use the smallest drill you can to drill as many 1mm deep 'craters' and make a lid out of sth eith inlet and outlet. Seriously, there's not nuff meet to carve anything out of 3mm copper sheet. Then you enter solder type blocks and .... countless designs are possible here.

I'd rather drill than cut in 3mm since driling is more precise (I hope you got sth like a drill press at least) and will leave you nice flat border to fix your top to (may want to research derlin).

I hope that at least I tried to answer your original quetion here

P.S. Why not buy commercila block?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Jabo

I am nobody d00de, take a chill pill, will ya?
I wasn't making any personal remarks nor was I attacking anyone. THis is free public forum and freedom of speach is as far as I know one of the foundations of western life style

Ummm, never said you you did? :shrug: And no it isn't a public forum, Freedom of Speech doesn't apply here. Remember agreeing to the TOS to become a member? Keyword "member".

If you feel offended by my general remarks I am sorry

Not offended at all. I have real hands on experience. Not offended by someone that doesn't and has yet to provide anything resembling a product better than what he bashes.

Maybe it is my general resources and costs conciousness that drives me through research first to production later. I personally would rather spend time designing things and fine tuning them as far as possible in virtual world and then, when theoretical means are exhausted, only start making working model. In this way I feel I am contributing my little bit towards saving energy and resources (not to mention I do not have time nor means to do countless prototypes as well as calcs take no time for me-theorycising deas take time mind you).
Trial and error development methods are as valid as theoretical research and practiced by countless invemtors worldwide.
Sorry again if I treaded on your toes, I did not mean to.

Trial and error is what drives the economy of the world.

P.s. Flatness of cold plates is one of the reasons why ther are not performning as well as they could

Would love to here the reasoning behind that.

[Jabo]

jaydee116 - I couldn't be bothered any more to reply to your posts.
Whatever you say...

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Jabo

. . . . .
P.s. Flatness of cold plates is one of the reasons why ther are not performning as well as they could

well, I'll bite since jd no longer has your 'ear'
- an awful lot of blah blah here with no specifics

1) define flatness as it relates to cold plates
2) identify your source of data that reveals sub-potential performance
3) what 'should' the flatness be ? - and why ?
4) and what performance gains will result from using cold plates to your spec ?

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by Varsis

what about HaX0r?
hehe.

no "d00de" is much worse.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Butcher

no "d00de" is much worse.

indeed, "d00de" is a pointed insult when the individual's name or nick is known

I guess Jabo's lofty self-esteem permits him such gratuitous dings

Jabo, I'll give you a handle if you do not wish to use names when responding
think KIA might fit ?

[Jabo]

I'll try to deflate my baloon a bit and aspire to keep my written English cleaner, just because I like you lot It was not meant as any form of insult.

Forgive me being a tad thick but what KIA stands for?

[BillA]

Jabo
you are not thick, suspect a language thing
a name is far preferable to a label, shows a bit of courtesy

you may skip KIA, too sarcastic by far; withdrawn - sorry

-> and my questions above ?

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by unregistered

well, I'll bite since jd no longer has your 'ear'
- an awful lot of blah blah here with no specifics

1) define flatness as it relates to cold plates
2) identify your source of data that reveals sub-potential performance
3) what 'should' the flatness be ? - and why ?
4) and what performance gains will result from using cold plates to your spec ?

First of all the whole thing was a misunderstanding caused by lack of precisssion in expressing myself.
1.Contact surface between CPUs die and cold plate should be as flat as possible/feasible.
2.First amendment please
3. See point 1, reason as many molecules of each of materials are gonna be in cotact with ever flatter surfaces, flatness 'level' is gonna be governed by costs only.
4. One is quite certian, cold plate will be lighter dT and flux spikingg capacity is goning to be increased potentially allowing for higher overclocks (yeah, it is lots of blah, blah, blah without numbers support - so take it as you wish everybody).

Now, theoretically perfect water block of classical pin design resembles a hedgehog. Imagine swiffy's lates but base is a hlaf sphere with pins 'bit' curved. inlet at the top and outlet as a gutter on the perimeter (get a glass ball and run a stream of water down on it)
Reason? Equal distance from each point on the thermal exchange surface from energy source resulting in perfect isotherms layout and superior surface are to any of the current designs.
This is why Bill's new block performs so well compared to Cathars designs. Swiftech's block has much lower energy dissipation per mm^2 (jetted area) compared to Cathars design but makes iit up with MUCH larger surface on which such desnity is present making it extremely good low flow (read universal) design - overall winner.
Trully elegant engineering solution, no fireworks but good solid conceptual work transpiring into extremely low production costs (pleae, do not read any brown nosing into this, it is sincere and I have no business saying one way or the other).

Anyone want to attempt spherical block with 'gutter' return?

[Jabo]

Originally Posted by unregistered

Jabo
you are not thick, suspect a language thing
a name is far preferable to a label, shows a bit of courtesy

you may skip KIA, too sarcastic by far; withdrawn - sorry

-> and my questions above ?

I know, it is pretty obvious I was not born speaking English and me being dyslectic shines pretty brightly too I guess
and sometimes I too get carried away (I catch fire pretty easily)

[kizzap]

what would be the best way to have the water flowing through the system?

I was think of having the water go through the pump then through the heatercore and then onto the CPU waterblock. now at the water block i was planning on splitting the water path in two making one go to the mobo chipset and the other go to the graphics card. then they would both meet up again and go back to the pump

is that ok for the flowpath?

that was the question that i asked

thanks for anyone who answers the question

[Jabo]

Go like this : rad->pump->CPU->gp->rad
Radiator does not benefit from high pressure nearly as much as water blocks and unless your pump dumps massive amounts of heat into water there's no point in placing rad between pump and CPU block - we want block to enjoy the highest pressure in the system

[Les]

Originally Posted by Jabo

..........
- we want block to enjoy the highest pressure in the system

Evidence please.
It is a new concept to me.
Think is crap but I am open to elucidation

[Les]

[quote=Jabo]
I jus wonder how this relationship behaves for more powerful elements ...........?[quote]



But the question is whether the method is right ?
Then whether my implementation is correct.

[Incoherent]

Originally Posted by Jabo

... base is a half sphere with pins 'bit' curved. inlet at the top and outlet as a gutter on the perimeter (get a glass ball and run a stream of water down on it)
Reason? Equal distance from each point on the thermal exchange surface from energy source resulting in perfect isotherms layout and superior surface are to any of the current designs.

It's a compromise. Agree to a point but with the added surface area comes a lower water velocity and hence lower turbulence for a given pump. Add the thermal gradient of copper and it can easily end up way inferior.