Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 12-29-2005, 03:31 PM   #26
ricecrispi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Yate loons, Papst, and panaflo were used by Cathar to design the RAD. These would be the most efficient fans for the RAD. I would assume the panaflo being the best performer out of the three fans. I would PM Marci or Cathar for more info because i they might have some information on this.

Recommended fan list
http://silentpcreview.com/article63-page2.html

More from the forums from Dr. Fan

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=16393

BTW
Buy a better fan controller. I agree with Etacovda
ricecrispi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2005, 03:38 PM   #27
Dr_Strangelove
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 79
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
I have a nexus controller here - its louder than the fans its attempting to quiet (buzzes) - so be aware that they're not all fantastic...

Agreed on that one. The first one I had sucked...buzzed all the time. The new one I have had for a while is pretty darn good and makes zero noise.
Dr_Strangelove is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2005, 06:57 PM   #28
Salkcin
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 22
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

It's funny how different people experience noise and what they call "loud". A 120mm fan at 2100RPM like the Panaflo M1A would make me going crazy, but a lot of people around the world call it "low noise" (but not in Denmark!). A Panaflo L1A (1700RPM) is what I call "acceptable", but it's for sure not silent!

As I already wrote my Papst 4412F/2GL (120x25mm, 1600RPM, Sintec sleeve bearing...) is also acceptable like the Panaflo L1A, but I prefer it at 7v. Also I've seen at different sites that this fan is not a good choice for radiators.

My point of making this thread is my concern of the current radiator designs. The radiators on the market have a very restrictive air design with louvered fins, short space between the fins, the radiators are 5cm thick... 120mm fans at low speeds like 1200RPM won't be able to cool the radiator efficiently enough allowing uncooled water to pass. These radiators are great for people tolerating fans like 120x38mm Panaflo M1A @ 2100RPM, but not for most danish people - we want 120x25mm fans @ >1200RPM.

My friend recently switched his DangerDen double heatercore out with a Hayden 676 (stacked plate aluminum oil cooler - formerly used in Swiftechs kits). He gained about 5 celcius degrees load on his 4,2GHz Prescott with the fans at same speed (running below 1200RPM). His explanation is that the Heatercore was to thick for low CFM fans like 120mm @ >1200RPM so that uncooled water passed through the heatercore.
I recognize what he says when I look at the PA160.1 - the core is only 25mm thick and it's made for low noise fans, but it's unfortunately to big for my miditower. I now turn for PA120.X, but I'm skeptical about it's thicksness of 61mm - will it suffer like the heatercore did?
I find it interesting to that Swiftech's own radiators only are 30mm thick and they are know for high performance systems... maybe there's something to it - but only for people who REALLY NEED SILENCE.

I have then concluded that the high fin desinty, louvered fins and so on will not change now so I'm looking for a fan that can overcome the resistance and pruduce a lot of pressure at low RPM. Therefor I'm interested in the SilverStone fans in my #1 post... they have 9 blades wich should make them good to make pressure - one of them is also 32mm thick wich also helps.

I don't hope the post is to long

Last edited by Salkcin; 12-29-2005 at 07:14 PM.
Salkcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2005, 07:33 PM   #29
pauldenton
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: london, england
Posts: 416
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkcin
I recognize what he says when I look at the PA160.1 - the core is only 25mm thick and it's made for low noise fans, but it's unfortunately to big for my miditower. I now turn for PA120.X, but I'm skeptical about it's thicksness of 61mm - will it suffer like the heatercore did?
I find it interesting to that Swiftech's own radiators only are 30mm thick and they are know for high performance systems... maybe there's something to it - but only for people who REALLY NEED SILENCE.

I have then concluded that the high fin desinty, louvered fins and so on will not change now so I'm looking for a fan that can overcome the resistance and pruduce a lot of pressure at low RPM. Therefor I'm interested in the SilverStone fans in my #1 post... they have 9 blades wich should make them good to make pressure - one of them is also 32mm thick wich also helps.

I don't hope the post is to long
hmm - iiuc the 61mm thickness of the PA120.x series include the 10mm plenums on either side - so the actual core is 40mm or so...
http://www.thermochill.com/pa1201.php

not sure how a dtek pro-core (readily available in denmark) would compare on air-resistance...
from the swiftech "Assessment of Radiators Performance" it is 11 FPI, but is 50mm thick
http://www.swiftnets.com/Technical/A...erformance.pdf
pauldenton is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2005, 08:14 PM   #30
Dr_Strangelove
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 79
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
BTW
Buy a better fan controller. I agree with Etacovda
Can you tell me what you would consider a better fan controller?
Dr_Strangelove is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2005, 11:09 PM   #31
Grain_Man
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hamer, S.C.
Posts: 1
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

My first wc build, and need help deciding on fans for u2 ufo case, with pa120.3 rad. Would like to keep it quite under 30db ( 9 fans,is it possible? ). Plan to get a performance board and a dual opty or amd x2). Will I be able to push this cpu using fans in the 47- 55 cfm range? (4412fgl or yl d12sl-12) or lower in the 37 cfm range (nexus 120), using pa120.3 rad?
also looking at t-balancer to undervolt any of the above fans during idle.

thanks
Grain_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 02:45 AM   #32
ricecrispi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

I had the 3.5" version and it was noisy so I sent it back and shallowed 15% restock fee. Those old fan controllers are ancient and there are many new fan controllers that are better. Decent controller should go lower than 7V.
Zalman has one that switchs from 12 V or 5 V and PWM, makes life really easy.

I really like the T-balancer or crystal fontz reviewed by Joe. Haven't got my grimmy hands on one yet but I will soon. $$$ shortage.

Cathar's response to another post
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...134#post152134

SALKIN

9 blade fan = glacialtech silentblades.
I heard at low RPM these 25mm fans ~ nexus fan but degrade with age because of ball bearings. I never heard about 35mm fan but I bet it's similiar to panaflo or worse.

Last edited by ricecrispi; 12-30-2005 at 03:26 AM.
ricecrispi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 03:32 AM   #33
Cathar
Thermophile
 
Cathar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
I have a nexus controller here - its louder than the fans its attempting to quiet (buzzes) - so be aware that they're not all fantastic...
I have one too. Silent. Totally silent. Unsure what was wrong with yours.

Heck, I even ran a Laing D5 pump off one of the channels at 12v for a while (~30 mins) before I realised what I was doing and how much load I was putting on the controller. It handled the load just fine, but the channel controller that the pump was on sure got hot. Extremely hot, but it coped.
Cathar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 03:38 AM   #34
ricecrispi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Salkin
Heatercores are not silent focused or even designed for WCing. Thermochill rads are and the PA series is focused towards silent WCing. Apples and Pears.

Look at the link and the PA fans have a very low fin density to the point I was shocked. Swiftech rads are not a bad choice and I would buy them myself but I would get a Thermochill rad if I had the money.
ricecrispi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 03:41 AM   #35
ricecrispi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Maybe an older vantec versions? Mine had a slighy buzz like a UV light module kit.
ricecrispi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 03:52 AM   #36
gmat
Thermophile
 
gmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

BTW the Adda 1212LB is used by Lian Li for their high end V-Series cases, and by Seasonic for their high end 500W/600W PSUs. I got mine with the Lian Li :P
Here are the specs
adda 1212LB:
1800 rpm
72 cfm
pressure 0.095"
34.4 dBA
Nice noise/performance ratio in my opinion.
The Delta i cited is comparable to the Panaflo Bill is using for his tests (and yes i was surprised to find a 'quiet' fan with a Delta label !)
The best thing to do is what Bill said: buy several fans, compare them, keep the best according to your tastes, sell the excess

About fan controllers it's to be noted that Papst fans dont like PWM at all, they produce a hum. An adequate controller would be the m-cubed MiniNG (which is also adequate for Laing pumps btw), it's smaller than their flagship T-balancer controller and less expensive. It has only 2 headers though (still adequate for 1-fan systems :P) and you can choose between PWM and analog. It has a proper heatsink so it won't fry in analog mode
gmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 08:14 AM   #37
Salkcin
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 22
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Is there a general rule of how much static pressure mmH2O is enough for radiatorcooling or do I miss other factors?
There's a Coolermaster fan - 120x38mm, 1200RPM (wee), 56CFM and a static pressure of 1,40 mmH2O - is this good for a radiator like PA120.1 or Swiftech MCR120.
- Coolermaster fan link

Is the static pressure proportional so if it's "1" at 2000RPM it's "0,5" at 1000RPM?

Am I wrong if I assume that the more static pressure per RPM a fan makes the better is it for radiatorcooling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
Salkin
Heatercores are not silent focused or even designed for WCing. Thermochill rads are and the PA series is focused towards silent WCing. Apples and Pears.
I know, but the heatercores like Chevy86 where a good choice because they had low water and air resistance, but they are to thick for low CFM fans.
Salkcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 09:04 AM   #38
billbartuska
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Skokie, Illinois
Posts: 322
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkcin
Is there a general rule of how much static pressure mmH2O is enough for radiatorcooling or do I miss other factors?

Is the static pressure proportional so if it's "1" at 2000RPM it's "0,5" at 1000RPM?

Am I wrong if I assume that the more static pressure per RPM a fan makes the better is it for radiatorcooling?



I know, but the heatercores like Chevy86 where a good choice because they had low water and air resistance, but they are to thick for low CFM fans.
The more pressure the better. The problem is that, in general more pressure means more noise. So, the question is how much noise will you tolerate?

Manufacturers don't publish RPM vs Pressure curves. Nore do they publish RPM vs Noise curves. Fans are designed to do a specific job. Most (non watercooling ppl) just buy the fan that fits and delivers the required CFM. Undervolting is not used in the "real world". This freekish community has discovered undervolting and thereby opened up a whole new world of fan choices. I see undervolting as a really, really nit pickey way of getting the CFM vs noise ratio to that ever elusive "sweet spot". IMHO, picking a fan that gives the max cooling at the rated voltage is the way to go. Then undervolt to get less noise for those times when you don't need max cooling. How much undervolting? how much noise? those are personal preferences. With the availability of PWM comtrollers it's hard to go wrong with any fan that gives you the cooling you need. I'm putting together a 2X120 Rad with 2 190 CFM fans, will it be loud...h@#% yes! can I get the fans to run slow enough to be livable and still provide adequate cooling for non intensive use? probably.

Is more static ressure per RPM better is a question like " Is blue bigger than 47 degrees celcius?" It doesn't matter. It's noise and cooling.

And I agree "thick" or anything else that impeeds airflow requires higher flow (higher noise and higher RPM) fans.
__________________
My new rig....
Intel SE440BX-3, PIII 550 (@ 680)
MX440 275/332 (@ 350/400) and 3DFX Voodo 5 5500 160/160 (@180/180)
Two Opticals and 120 gigs (w/28gigs in RAID0) on 4 Maxstors

Last edited by billbartuska; 12-30-2005 at 09:14 AM.
billbartuska is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 09:13 AM   #39
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

http://www.thermal-management-testing.com/figure1.gif
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 10:04 AM   #40
gmat
Thermophile
 
gmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

yes this is not a linear relation

Here is an example of flow vs pressure curve - for instance the graph for the papst 4212 NGML (38 dBA @12V)

and the 4212 L (28dBA @12V)


And more interesting they have "variofans" so they publish speed vs pressure/flow curves:

this is for a 80x25 variofan, controlled by a thermistor, so it's temperature which varies, but basically the thermistor (with its control circuitry) varies the voltage between 8V and 12V. The only problem is the thermistor response to temperature linear ? Like billbartuska said we are a special population - when engineering products for the industry the provided graphs are enough, you just want to know temperature vs flow, the actual voltage / rpm is not relevant.
gmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 04:43 PM   #41
HammerSandwich
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 15143
Posts: 358
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Strangelove
Can you tell me what you would consider a better fan controller?
I really like the Sunbeam Rheobus. It's a 4-channel controller with linear regulation up to 20W per channel. Construction quality seems a lot better than the Nexus and Zalman units I've seen. They're only $9 right now at Jab-tech .
__________________
www.procooling.com: It's true we are often a bunch of assholes
HammerSandwich is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2005, 06:52 PM   #42
ricecrispi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerSandwich
I really like the Sunbeam Rheobus.
I think is goes 0-12 Volts as well. In general, there are many fan controllers to choose from that are better quality and more functional than old school nexus controllers.

Salkin
The panaflos M are very quiet at 7V. They vibrate a little bit but if you isolate them properly you can hardly hear them at 7V. The Panaflo M series at 9 V is about the same as L series.
ricecrispi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2006, 09:30 AM   #43
Salkcin
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 22
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

I wrote to Silverstone and requested performance curves for their 120mm fans (FM121 and FM122).

Now I have them I thought if you could read them? no values are written - there's just a curve.
Should I write them for futher information or does the curves tell if they are good fans for watercooling. The FM122 should be designed for high air pressure operation.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fm121.jpg (61.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg fm122.jpg (59.1 KB, 7 views)
Salkcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2006, 09:59 AM   #44
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

noise vs. speed
need the other curves to consider

but only by comparative testing will you know
specs alone are not sufficient
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2006, 12:02 PM   #45
Brians256
Pro/Staff
 
Brians256's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Posts: 1,439
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
noise vs. speed
need the other curves to consider

but only by comparative testing will you know
specs alone are not sufficient
True.

1) Specs lie. Some more than others.
2) Ears are different.
Brians256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-17-2006, 10:52 AM   #46
Salkcin
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 22
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Okay, I think I have the correct graphs now. How does it look for the fans in theory?

The left graph is FM121 and the right FM122
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FM121.jpg (124.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg FM122.jpg (89.0 KB, 5 views)
Salkcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-17-2006, 11:03 PM   #47
Dr_Strangelove
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 79
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

The Sany Denki San Ace 120mms I have modded to 7V are pretty damn quiet in comparison to my old Panaflos. I also tested them at 5V and they are virtually silent.

I only decided to use 7V for now since it seems to help keep things a bit cooler.

The Nexus controller I was using before seemed to make these particular fans buzz to all hell. No idea why.
Dr_Strangelove is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2006, 01:41 AM   #48
ricecrispi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: california
Posts: 429
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

How much for the fans and can you provide a link from where you pruchased it if possible.

EDIT:
I went to Sanyo Denki website and saw some large fans. Is there any reasons why no one suggest larger fans like the 140 x 38mm fan or 140x50mm fans?

Last edited by ricecrispi; 01-18-2006 at 02:01 AM.
ricecrispi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2006, 07:24 AM   #49
Dr_Strangelove
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 79
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

I bought my fans from this guy: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=974021
Dr_Strangelove is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-17-2006, 11:48 PM   #50
rpalamara
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 11
Default Re: How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

Just my two cents.

I have some Sanyo Denkis that are wired for 7 volts and are fine. Never had a problem with them not starting. They dont have a motor whine but they do have a bearing noise and when combined with the radiator they make more noise. Right now my fan on my evga 7800gt is louder than the Denkis at 7 volts(at 12v they are unbearable).

I was thinking of getting M1as but at 7v they put out slightly less air than the Yates-Loon at 12v and the noise is about the same.

I have 3 Yates loon also and will test if there is any temp difference in my system between Yates at 12v and Denki at 7v with a PA 120.3.
rpalamara is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...