Save ProCooling: Staff Wanted!

[Joe]

The post that was in the Site issues area this afternoon got my attention and got me thinking about doing something I have thought about for a bit now.

ProCooling won't close up shop any time soon, or ever as long as I am here... but in order for ProCooling to become relevant again, and get back on its game we need some help!

What we nee is staff. Editorial writers, Reviewers, Project writers, etc...

The catch is the writers, staff, etc... need to be dedicated and GOOD writers. We have had MANY staff in the past that either never wrote anything but had big big plans, or just plain couldn’t write to save their life. We need lively active writers who know how to paint a picture or present an idea or concept in words effectively. Someone who will take a sense of ownership and actively help move the site back into the fore front of the industry or at least back into the light of it

As Procooling has shown, we are no BS. Staff who come on need to be the same, call it how it is, straight up, no fluff crap.

Topics: Anything you choose that is technical or industry related in nature. Yes the sites name is ProCooling, but diversity in the content is good. I would love to get info and analysis at a technical level of memory technologies, upcoming processor tech, storage tech, etc... We all know now that reviewing and getting quantifiable results doing cooling testing that is accepted across the board is not possible and is the reason that PC is in this lul currently. While doing cooling testing would be optimal, there is a substantial cost, and instantly obsolesce of any testing rig that makes it not really the thing I think will happen unless we get some damn motivated writers If you have a topic, I am sure we can find a place for it on the site. Consumer electronics included.

Compensation: Reviewers keep what ever they review, and if a writer shows themselves to be a valuable asset to the site, they will be compensated in a profit sharing percentage of what the site brings in. In time if the site develops into a strong enough money flow, then per article of the month payouts (ala OC'rs) is possible. My only goal for PC is for it to pay for itself, which is just does right now... barely. So if we get more traffic, and more presence, money is not going to be that hard to get to the point we can pay out.

What PC has to offer the reader base:
1. A long history of technical reviews/articles/editorials
2. A technical and attentive audience who have in the past defined many stages of the cooling market's development.
3. A fluid website that integrates with the forums, chat, etc...
4. Access to many experts in many fields for validation of review/article data.
5. A semi-inactive staff of very bright individuals (pH, Brian, myself)... we may be too lazy to write, but we sure can lend a hand
6. A reliable server (was reliable until it flaked out last week for some weird ass reason hehe), that has lots of additional capacity.

Please reply, PM or email me ( joe@procooling.com ) if you are interested. We have asked this before, but when we did we had a website that was impossible to update... that’s changed... now we have a website that’s able to be dynamically updated via the web... so why not have at it?! Just a word of caution though, we will not accept just anyone... I would rather PC sit as it is, than to take on second rate writers or fluff pieces.

I will probably ask for a sample of writing from you or a review or what ever you want to do on the site to check out how you go about it.

[Joe]

I do have some good news, looks like long time ProCooling Chat personality Warpath is going to come on and write goodies for us. More news on that as it comes.

[bigben2k]

If I can suggest, you should start by designating a Chief Editor.
Purpose: to validate articles, and examine them for their validity. This person could also collaborate with potential writers (full time, or one-off), in writing these articles.

Aside from my testbench, I do have and will take the time to fill that role, if you're interested. I'm by no means an expert, but I am able to pose relevant questions to writers, to make a more accurate and complete article.

Not sure where pHaestus stands on testing, but we'd need that too; a valid testbench. Personally, I think ProCooling should have two fully operational testbenches.

[Sin22]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Personally, I think ProCooling should have two fully operational testbenches.

Testbeds are still gg to be the source of the problems, and the interpretation of results from them. I wasnt around for the last feud, but I had heard some rumblings about it enough to guess what it was about.

You've always been a supporter of the Waterblock Testers Association (was it called that?), but even with two standardisd testbeds in two locations, it could very well cause enough discrepency in numbers when testing that manufacturers or vested interests will cry foul.

At that, the margin of difference in some of these blocks is getting ridiculously small. I just finished doing an overview of about 11 blocks ( Most of the AquaXtreme range, WW, Storm, TDX etc). It was way too much of a pain and too much of a wallet killer to get the level of reviews that the people here on ProC want, and even then I'd be scared to remotely mention anything about the overview as it still would get torn to shreds.

At the end of the day, I'd love to help, and I reckon so would a bunch of other people, but there still is that ongoing fear of getting ripped a new one because one review doesnt meet the ridiculously high criteria of some members, or someone else has an agenda, which is getting quite ridiculous on an online forum meant to share knowledge and love of watercooling. Its gotten to the stage whereby this place is seen as a trolling idea for ideas in the watercooling industry and easy money corrupts many a heart.

[bigben2k]

Actually...

From my perspective, the problem isn't that the results would be different, the issue is that one needs to be able to explain why, and that can be more complicated than putting up a testbench itself!

I'm sure that you're only painfully aware of the small differences between blocks nowadays. Yes, it's expensive; I've invested > ~1'000$ already, and I'm not done. With a lot of patience though, I've been able to pick out a few key items on eBay for an affordable price, and have received critical assistance from Bill.

The organization I started is called the WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) @ wbta.us . While also a slow runner, it will remain, as surely as Joe intends to keep ProCooling around. I find myself in need of an assistant to keep it running too.

I could go on and on about the testbench issue, but the point of this thread is about ProCooling itself. To me, in order to be relevant, it needs a testbench, and to be important, it needs two. There's no issue here, as long as it's handled properly. The goal here is to validate the data, and that can be done.

That aside, I still believe that ProCooling needs first and foremost, to designate a Chief Editor. Every site out there is organized this way, as is any press or magazine. It just makes sense, and it lets the writers know what to expect.

I *almost* wrote an article for THG last year, and I received a 40 page format and requirement list, to make sure that I meet their guidelines (unfortunately, I lacked time to complete the articles). This isn't easy work.

[DryFire]

It'd be really sad to see one of my favorite cooling sites die, but I don't know many people with the ability, time and money to do proper testing.

While I don't have the equipment to do proper water cooling testing, I wouldn't mind writing an article about setting up H.264 playback and the processing requirements needed to play certain files; I could even make some test files.

I may be writing a paper about water cooling as an independent study, but I doubt anyone who's actually built a water cooling setup would care much about it.

[Joe]

As I posted to another thread:

I know 4 people who recently water cooled their HTPC's, and home PC's to remove noise. (People who laughed at using watercooling only a year earlier) Yes you are right that the people who use it for insane cooling levels are dwindling. The people who use it for silent computing though are going up and up.

For that reason I see reviewing cooling systems to be less a practice in .001C resolution and accuracy, 2000 samplings a second, millions of data points, to a more realistic... general testing of a systems capabilities. Yes the puritans of data will find little value in testing like that... but the people who still post and visit the site Would, and we would attract more of the mainstream readers.

Focusing on acoustics, ease of install, long term reliability, quality construction, and price (comparison against the cost of a similar air setup) I see as the way we move forward on testing this stuff. With CPU temp's gathered as good as reasonable but not wasting thousands of dollars on environmental chambers, die's, lab quality testing hardware, etc...

Let’s be serious here. PC is not what it was a year ago... and it was only the way it was because of a vocal minority of the reader base (Technical to the fringe). People just want to know what works, and see stuff in use. Giving them data they can use and evaluate purchasing decisions on.

I think this is the road map for PC coming back into the fold as a major player in the cooling market as well as a major player in the review industry in general.

I just dont see doing testing of cooling equiptment to be that needed at a base core level. Most of us arent building new cooling systems or engineering new blocks... MOST people are just buying off the shelf hardware. More simple testing will give the reader an idea what to look forward to and not be bogged down in technical BS that doesnt matter to 99% of the people who read it.

Back a year ago and before I would agree that we had a more technical base, but now, we just need to appeal to the more general who are looking for solid testing/review data with no bullshit.

[bobo5195]

Where to begin…

Firstly I disagree slightly with bens point about an editor in chief. I think a sub committee of editors would be enough with maybe someone in a less involved role posting (last read through check spelling/ adjudicating). Which would take next to nothing time wise.

As for the reviews I completely agree with there being very little need for proper high end testing because to be honest all testing is a load of bollocks anyway. But that very little need is where procooling should lie cos frankly no one else would do it. The best niche is still being the most technical place on the web as that is what this site is good at it’s its USP the one thing it is better at than anything else.

I would also like to see more home made block designs and techy stuff. As it is simply not out there. Granted 99.99% of ppl reading won’t make blocks but a lot might want to read about them. In a similar way Top Gear doesn’t review normal cars or do any proper or scientific reviews. It does supercars and says they have many torques.

As for me I barely have time these days as I have a job I like (and can’t talk about). Given the amount of bad posts that I have seen I might post an article on turbulence, rather than writing 100,000 words explaining fluid mech at average high school level is not going to be fun. I could post 50 pages of maths which shows how you go from raw theory to a CFD formulation for example but I doubt most people (other than college kids reading up on fluid mech) would be interested or would survive the brain crush in one reading.

Another topic that might interest me would be an article on making blocks yourself with a little help from a friendly workshop. Given the current state of modern manufacturing there is becoming less and less reasons why you need a factory. For about $200 you could make a custom block that is good and is your own. Not cost efficient performance wise but brings a smile to your face and is l33t as the kiddies would say.

[Joe]

See there is something to consider, is once we can get the masses to the site, and get traffic back up we can afford in time, and cost wise to invest in more serious testing. But this is like a triage effort. We need to save the site then we can work on improving it

[ZX2Slow]

I've been lurking on this board for a few years. I cannot write, nor do I have a degree in thermodynamics (CS and EE). I would really like this forum back the way it was before the review tomfoolery.

If theres anything I can contribute let me know.

[BGP Spook]

I would love to write and review for PC, if it means breathing life back into PC.

I am studying to be a ME.

I think I am fairly good at writting and I enjoy the technical side of things.

I learn as I go, inspite of my ocassional ignorance....

Once I get over the hump of any learning curve I think I would be a valuable asset and the experience would be beneficial for me.

Yet, I am a full time student.

Typically, I barely have the time to keep up with the news, let alone write articles on any consistent basis.

I will try, though; as I can I will try.

-------------------------------

I think there should be a chief editor who has the final say on any given article and a small committe of editors to sift the articles until they are ready for the chief editor.

I believe we should aim for the common consumer, the price concious watercooler, and the silence enthusiast.

We can all without sacrificing scientific data collection or analysis.

This may mean we will have to forgo higher levels of accuracy--more than three or four significant figures--in the short term.

But science has proceeded with this method for generations.

[Azazel]

May I suggest taking a look at SPCR for an example of a hardware site that is unashamedly technical, while still having interest and relavence for their nontechnical readers? The measurements done there are some of the best that can be found, yet many consumers now go there for reviews.

Take heart in seeing that so many people still wish to see procooling survive and succeed, even after the big fallout its still been the place that I go for the lowdown on the more technical side of watercooling. This, along with OCNZ and OCAU is one of the few forums I still use, even if I'm more of a lurker than anything else here.

I will try and document my next silent project, if I have time I'll write it up as an article for use here or in SPCR, whomever wants it.

[Joe]

We would want any review you could offer Warpath (I need to find out that guys real name) is writing up a case review in teh next few days also.. *gasp* content!

[BGP Spook]

I think I have an article idea but I don't really want to mention it until I feel sure I have something worth the time to read.

If I do, then who would I send it to for review?

[Joe]

Send it to me, joe@procooling.com

thx

[CYberDruid]

I found Cathar's threads invaluable and Phaestus of course is in a category by himself. As a Modder and Acrylic's guru I am afraid I may not be the right person to write technical articles for your site, but I would very much like to invigorate this Forum in some manner...

When I figure out how I can help I'll get in touch.

Best Regards

CyberDruid

[Cathar]

I think the issue here is that Procooling itself is not becoming irrelevant, it's that water-cooling overall has stagnated, at least from a technical point of view.

Taking a look at the XtremeSystems w/c forums the interest levels seem to have moved from the DIY design and technical aspects, and so on, and have moved more towards general system building from DIY parts. Sure, people are still interested in how stuff performs, but they're heavily factoring in size and noise into that equation too.

This is also reflected in the market-place. How many new blocks are on the market nowadays? Some companies are running products from 2 to 3 years ago, albeit slightly refined with the odd tweak here and there, but overall the marketplace hasn't moved to any great deal.

We've all analysed the crap out of pumps, fans, blocks, radiators, tubing, and so on, and slowly but surely as a community we've narrowed down the choices to the good stuff, and the average stuff. What is there left to do? PC water-cooling overall is closish to a "known quantity" now. Sure there are quirks and debates over testing methods, and the strength of each side of the debate gets backed up by real-world evidence for both cases. Take a look at the SG overclockers w/b review. Higher overclocks (more stable cooling of the core) yet with higher reported temperatures. Go figure. I do believe that those debates were really more of a symptom of the lack of real things to talk about. Everyone's fighting over the scraps of what there was left to do.

That's all besides the point though. PC was heavily aligned with the bleeding edge of w/c development and attracted the audience it did because advances were coming thick and fast for quite a while there. That's no longer true, both in the market-place and in the DIY case. This is the real reason for the decline. It actually started over 2 years back when PC was split into sub-sections in an attempt to spur additional debate in various sub-areas. Instead all I feel that it has achieved is split the sub-interest areas up into ways in which people HAVE TO first have an interest in some sub-section before they'll even click on some thread. i.e. the PC site seems to now be so sub-diversified that it somewhat inhibits the lively cross-pollination that occurred between sub-interest groups.

Is there an answer? I don't know. Get back to roots maybe. It's never going to be the place it once was. That's not anyone's fault, that's just the way the market place has taken us all. I'd say get back to a singular technical discussion forum format. Put it back in one place where people can easily see the content and contribute. Also, raise the default "Show past 30 days" only, and increase that to 1 year. It might re-spark some interest in topics that have slid by the way-side and are less easy to find for the casual browser.

Take a look at OCForums, XTremeSystems, Hocp, and OCAU. While some here may look on those sites with a certain level of contempt, they are still active and somewhat lively. I don't mean look to replicate them, but look to see just what it is that people are posting about. Not all of it is non-technical. People are really more focused on system-building. The correct matching of components, and so on. If you want to attract the masses, start talking the about stuff that is interesting to the masses.

PC has backed itself into an elitist corner. Again, I don't believe that this is anyone's fault, but there sure was room here for the focused technical forums alongside with more mass-interest discussions. PC's forum user base generally eschewed the mass-interest group and as a result once the technical aspects declined, just as they were always going to one day, it's left without the support base that it's looking for. I mean take a look at where a number of the more technical posters here started posting. It was on those sites, so having mass appeal people isn't all bad.

Look around the web. Look at what's working today. Refocus the technical aspects, and hopefully something will be salvaged.

[CYberDruid]

I think Cathar has made some good points--especially about over-diversifying and watering down what has always been a kind of elite niche for real technical data.

System building is really big--but there are alot of sites that have grown around that. Why I come to PC is for unabashedly tedious technical discussions that I would even be afraid to post a response to..LOL. If I want to know which mobo OCs the Kentsfield I know which sites to go visit for that--but if I want to understand microturbulence and how jet impingement design functions I come here.

Maintaining relevance is always difficult without change..so I understand your desire to move past test benches, Joe. But trying to be like other sites seems like a gamble--PC needs to reconnect back to it's honest and technical roots. This should be the place people go to refute the BS that springs up everywhere else!

[Joe]

Pretty much its a damned if you do and damned if you dont thing right now. If I go and keep hoping for technical content, the site will stay as is and it will just sit here. If I push forward and write content I like and can do easily... then the site may grow in some ways, and in turn could bring more writing potential to the mix again so we can get more technical focused action going on.

Pretty much I am the only writer on the site, and I dont have much time. So pretty much the site needs to take what I am giving or step up to help with the site

[plywood99]

Originally Posted by Cathar

That's all besides the point though. PC was heavily aligned with the bleeding edge of w/c development and attracted the audience it did because advances were coming thick and fast for quite a while there. That's no longer true, both in the market-place and in the DIY case. This is the real reason for the decline. It actually started over 2 years back when PC was split into sub-sections in an attempt to spur additional debate in various sub-areas. Instead all I feel that it has achieved is split the sub-interest areas up into ways in which people HAVE TO first have an interest in some sub-section before they'll even click on some thread. i.e. the PC site seems to now be so sub-diversified that it somewhat inhibits the lively cross-pollination that occurred between sub-interest groups.

I'd say get back to a singular technical discussion forum format. Put it back in one place where people can easily see the content and contribute. Also, raise the default "Show past 30 days" only, and increase that to 1 year. It might re-spark some interest in topics that have slid by the way-side and are less easy to find for the casual browser.

Take a look at OCForums, XTremeSystems, Hocp, and OCAU. While some here may look on those sites with a certain level of contempt, they are still active and somewhat lively. I don't mean look to replicate them, but look to see just what it is that people are posting about. Not all of it is non-technical. People are really more focused on system-building. The correct matching of components, and so on. If you want to attract the masses, start talking the about stuff that is interesting to the masses.

Look around the web. Look at what's working today. Refocus the technical aspects, and hopefully something will be salvaged.

Agree 100% with Cathar's statement. I really did enjoy the forums more when it wasn't so divided. Allowed for a lot more interaction and general discussion.

I hope it isn't too much trouble Joe, but forums could use a new format...

Ply

[Joe]

What new format?

[plywood99]

Notnew so to speak, but more like they used to be, before things were so split up...

[Joe]

Yeh the more I thought about it the more I see that theres some "re-arranging" that could happpen.

I have to clean some stuff up and change some things anyway, so when I do that I can go and consolidate some topics.

[laxman]

Over the last year I have seen this site's activity come to a slow halt. Although this is not just contained to procooling but the w/c community as a whole. It seems that we as a community have reached a plateau in not only cooling efficiency but innovation. Leaving the community very little to write about or grow on. Also this lack of substantial improvement have caused C/W values of different water blocks to creep closer together. Therefore putting a heavy burden on the tester to judge which water block is “better”. This burden of proof caused many debates over testing practices and which water blocks are truly “better”. With many debates turning heated, many strong leaders of the community lessen their contributions to the community and the community shrank. Thus we are where we are now. Since we cannot change what has happened, lets try not to make those same mistakes. The largest problem faced with the community at this point should be how do we break the plateau of efficiency that we are in now. Or how do we provide quite cooling or even silent cooling without sacrificing efficiency. Or how can we make these cooling solutions smaller, lighter, or even mobile. It should not be how do we test it or which product is marginally better. Yes we have to test well but if the improvement is under 1c why should we care. Personally the former problems are what loom and hang in my mind. Therefore I would love to be the person to beat out the g7 by any reasonable margin. This mindset is what has brought me to this point. Right now I have a full scale ready test bench to test water blocks, radiators, and full systems. Not only that but in about a month I will have a full CNC mill with a bi-directional repeatability of about 5-10 micrometers (bases off daedal slides very cool stuff). So yes I am gearing up to build and test many new water cooling solutions. Right now I have 3 or 4 water blocks and some other more interesting stuff planned. This is what I am doing to help the community. So I will make this offer to anyone, give me something to test and I will test it give me something to build and I will build it. These are just my thoughts take them as such.

[bigben2k]

Honestly, what baffles me is why phase change cooling isn't very active here. I know that it isn't terribly accurate, and there are a lot of subjective elements to it, but many, many other sites are a lot more active on this.

I'm starting the jump to phase change, and sadly won't be able to use Procooling for any assistance/reference. At least I can report my experiences here. :shrug: