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Unread 09-08-2002, 10:57 AM   #1
bowman1964
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Default Phase Change project start to finish

well today i am going to start something that i hope will be looked on for a long time.i am going to design and build a system that i hope will change the way we look at cooling.freon based direct block cooling plus chilling all combined in one unit.plus build and mod. a case from scatch.i will be using freon to cool the proccesor to around -45 to -50 like i already have done before but with a side advantage of chipset and video cooling.i plan on using the excess freon from the cpu evaporator to power a small chiller unit to cool the chipset and video.this project will take me a couple of months but since i have gotten the freon evaperator already tested and proven to out cool the Prometeia and others that you can buy,i think this will be alot easer.hard part of my project will be compacting the system into a case the size of a large tower.plus make a circuit to control the system on and off and over heat protection.plus display unit on front, and going to try to make it from aluminium.
i am going to try and post alot of links for people who wish to make a system themselves also.
i know alot of you guys allready know what i have built in the past so maybe we all can help each other out.
any and all ideas will be a great help.i have the system allready drawn out but alot of you are better at other areas than i am.i will be glad to help others out also.
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Unread 09-08-2002, 11:41 AM   #2
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ok to start of with i want to give everyone links to any thing to do with helping with phase change how too.
First links are ac and freon tech pages
http://www.tecumsehindia.com/new_technical.htm
http://www.rparts.com/
http://www.mychromalox.com/technical...on/default.asp
http://www.et.dtu.dk/coolpack/UK/Index.html
http://www.achrnews.com/CDA/ArticleI...8,3875,00.html
http://oberon.ark.com/~airekool/rb1.htm
http://red-tek.com/
http://www.hvacwebtech.com/freons.htm#P/T%20Chart
http://www.longviewweb.com/r22.htm
http://www.refparts.com/Catalog/Tool...cuum_pumps.asp
http://www.techmethod.com/
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=4236
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=3771
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=4194


second are links to guys just like us who are doing the same type of stuff extreeme cooling or forum links.
http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showth...0&pagenumber=1
http://www.evilnet.net/~koan/images/cooling_tower2/
http://www.hardforums.com/showthread...5&pagenumber=1
http://www.vanderhoeven.nu/dabit/pha...en/design.html
http://xoverclocker.com/
http://www.icrontic.com/index.php?pa...hardwareId=364
http://3rotor.dns2go.com/images/h2o_...03036.JPG.html
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Unread 09-08-2002, 04:08 PM   #3
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I personally see it much more efficient and safer to run the evaporator through water to make a water chiller and cool the computer using that. Although there will be a difference between the refrigerant temperature and the water temperature, it will not be that great of a difference. I tested it and the water temperature difference is around 7 F. I dont believe that is a great difference. Running copper through your computer is a tough task. Milling the copper blocks is even worse.
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Unread 09-08-2002, 04:47 PM   #4
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But if it's not challenging, then it's no fun

Go for it Bowman, we're all waiting in anticipation!
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Unread 09-09-2002, 11:07 PM   #5
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well i i am at a point i need to decied something.i am considering buying a condensing unit ready to go.not sure yet.r12 which i will convert to r22 but i wont have to fight the condenser.took me a week last time to make the condensor.is a pain to solder all the tubes back up after you cut one to pieces.i guess i will decied buy the weekend.i need to know before i start getting the alum cut and bent for the case.here is a pic and a link to the unit i am thinking about.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pro...mId=1611749408
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Unread 09-10-2002, 12:54 PM   #6
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OK WELL I JUST FOUND ONE OF THE BEST LINKS YET.
http://www.tpc-nacg.com/techdocs.htm
YOU GUYS WILL LOVE IT. I BET 90% OF THE OLD COMPRESSORS I SEE ARE MADE BY TECUMSEH COMPRESSORS.THIS LINK WILL TELL YOU WHAT THE COMPRESSOR IS, POWER RATING ,BTU,EVERYTHING.
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Unread 09-10-2002, 01:32 PM   #7
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Wow, all those links will take me some time to read
That compresor/condenser combo looks nice but 400$ is quite expensive for me, I need to check how much are Danfoss compresors here in Slovenia, there is Danfoss factory just 20km from me so I can get some data from them.
I like your idea of small chiller from unused fluid to cool water for gpu and nb. So like a waterblock/evaporator from the same copper block, is that what you think. I would be perfectly hapy with 10-15 degre C water from the chiller so that condensation problems wouldn't be too big.
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Unread 09-10-2002, 01:48 PM   #8
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NOT SURE YET ABOUT THE CONDENSOR UNIT.ALOT OF MONEY I CAN BUT MY 9700 RADEON WITH.BUT I FOUND A NEW CONDENSOR AT WORK 2 ROWS I AM TRING TO SEE IF IT CAN HANDLE THE HEAT LOAD.BUT I AM GOING TO BUY ME A NEW COMPRESSOR.1/4 OR 1/3HP. THE MAIN REASON I AM LEANING AWAY FROM BUYING A COMPRESSOR/CONDENSOR UNIT IS SPACE.I WANT TO GIVE THE LOOK OF A LARGE TOWER CASE.BUT WITH A BEAST INSIDE.
AND WHAT I HAVE ON TOP OF MY PLANS RIGHT NOW IS A ON DIE EVAP. BUT THE RETURN WILL GO THROUGH A SMALL SET OF COILS INSIDE A SMALL TANK BESIDE THE COMPRESSOR.AND A SMALL PUMP ABOUT 200GPH WIL PUMP COLD WATER TO THE GPU AND CHIPSET.IF WATER IS COLD ENOUGH I CAN PUT A PELT ON VIDEO CARD.SINCE I RUN 2 POWER SUPPLIES A 500WATT AND A 400 WATT I DONT THINK I WILL HAVE A PROBLEM POWERING THE PELT.I WILL TRY SOMETIME TO POST SOME PLANS.
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Unread 09-10-2002, 10:03 PM   #9
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well just ordered my condensor.my free time wont let me make it so i ordered one perfect for the pc case.got a roll of capillary tubing on the way too.
link to condensor.
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_...s/012-1001.htm
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Unread 09-10-2002, 10:26 PM   #10
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well i was going to reuse a old compressor but.i am going to get me a new one ordered tommorow.one thing i have learned about old compressors,most of them have worn some internal parts and usaually dont pull the proper suction.so i am hoping a new compressor will give me a little better evap. temp

link to compressor
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pro...mId=1613405421
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Unread 09-10-2002, 10:29 PM   #11
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condensor
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Unread 09-10-2002, 11:43 PM   #12
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well so far this is going to be my chiller mounted in the back of the pc behind the compressor.not very large but compact and cold i hope.return line from evaperator going into small resivoir.coiled tubing with return coolant from chipset and video card spraying though a spray bar mounted on the bottom of the small tank.upwards untill the coolant overflows into the pump chamber area where a small 200 gph or so pump will circluate the coolant to the video and chipset and back into the tank.now when the freon gets back to the compressor it will be a gas completly and i get some extra cooling out of it.
this will work alot easyer in a case.one freon line is bad but if i had 2 or 3 ....i would never be able to work on it from all the cluter.water lines on the video and chipset are no problem.and if i want extra cooling on the video i can always pull out one of 5 or 6 peltiers i have sitting around.
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Unread 09-11-2002, 12:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
I personally see it much more efficient and safer to run the evaporator through water to make a water chiller and cool the computer using that.
SonixOS good idea.

well i must admit i have thought hard about running water though the back of the evaperator unit.but............what if the coolant freezes in the back of the evap or gels up because of the cold.then you lose all cooling to the video and chipset.would be a major meltdown.very bad.
so i decied on this small chiller unit.
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Unread 09-11-2002, 03:07 PM   #14
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The only thing I have a problem with water chiller is the pump, and the fluid. And that I mean how the pump handle the cold in higher viscosity fluid... If going realy low that is, also more problems with insulation.
Thats why direct die evaporator is the way I'm gonna go.
I like that idea bowman about the small chiller, I was thinking something similar just in a shape of one big block like a heat exchanger, so unused fluid from cpu to this evap which will have chanells milles on both side one for evap. one for water.
What is the moste efficient way to controll the freon fluid flow through the system, if somehow there won't be enough fluid from cpu evap to cool water for gpu and nb to let say 10°C, but to complicate even more to let me boost the cooling for short amount of time.
Because playing with optimal lenght of capilary tube is not realy practical for me because I don't have the equiment for refilling.
So I would like to make unit that have some cooling left and not running at it's limit. So if I would use thermostatic expansion valve how much performance would I actualy lose, my goal is to keep cpu in the range of 120-150W bellow zero at full load.
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Unread 09-11-2002, 03:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
The only thing I have a problem with water chiller is the pump, and the fluid. And that I mean how the pump handle the cold in higher viscosity fluid... If going realy low that is, also more problems with insulation.
Quote:
Thats why direct die evaporator is the way I'm gonna go.
WELL morphling1 i am building mine with direct die evap on the processor.maybe you misunderstood me.but the excess liquid from the evap will power the small chiller.and i dont exspect the chiller to get below -10c maybe(coolant terperture)so i wont have a problem with pumping the liqiud to just the gpu and chipset.

and yes if you give me a little time i can show you what expansion vavle you will need and how to use it ok???

but i know where to get a program that will give you the proper size and lenght of capillary tube depending on the compressor and heat load.as soon as i get home tonight i will post that if anyone wants it.or i can get you close with just telling me hp of compressor and freon used.
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Unread 09-11-2002, 03:58 PM   #16
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No,no Bowman I didn't misunderstood you, that was meant for sonixOS (I rarely use quote) ,I know that you're direct die evaporator all the way.
And I thank you in advance for help, I'll be first making evaporator block, because I now have the machine to do it, then after I get a little money for other parts, I'll go all the way
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Unread 09-11-2002, 11:11 PM   #17
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well now i wait on the compressor and condensor.i am designing out the layout of the slider assm.by slider i mean in the bottom of this case i am making will be a open area for me to slide the compressor /condensor.chiller unit as one unit into the computer case.this removeable tray i am making will alow for testing of the cooling system and work on the computer without having to fight all the hoses and piping.so it i need to replace mother board ...i have a new ABIT AT7-MAX2 VIA KT400 on order dur new week with a CORSAIR PC3200 512MB DDR400 CAS2 stick of ram.then i am waiting on the xp2600.ooooooooooooooyeaaaaaaaaa.


sorry i forgot what i was doing. ooo yea the cooling assemble well here is my latest design for the cooling unit.
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Unread 09-16-2002, 05:35 PM   #18
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well sorry i havent posted much. been waiting on ups.well i got the condensor in today.capillary tube and strainer .but had to reorder another compressor.first one had no stock on.spent more than i wanted to but anouther one is one the way.as soon as i get home tonight i will get a few pics of the condensor and size for everone to see.
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Unread 09-16-2002, 05:37 PM   #19
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Hey Bowman I need some info. I made a few calculations with R134 and R22 freons. From Molliere diagrams for those freons I draw theoretical cooling cycle and I calculate cooling number for R134 to be 4.5 and for R22 14.9 , so huge difference just by changing freons so that means if I need let say 250W of cooling power that compressor power for R22 is just ~16W is . So How do you controll all that exesive power from compressor if you pick one like you said 0.25 HP (183W) ... by lenght of capilary tube?
And then I looked at NH3 that is even better cooling nuber is ~30 for that gas. And one good thing about NH3 you could quickly smell if something is leaking.
If I'm totaly wrong how do you pick up the right compressor?
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Unread 09-16-2002, 06:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
So How do you controll all that exesive power from compressor if you pick one like you said 0.25 HP (183W) ... by lenght of capilary tube?
well my friend let me see if i can explain that .
first thing you do is pic the largest compressor you will need for the watts needed, then add some more because lots of things no one thinks about.biggest thing everyone forgets is ????????what cools off the compressor?the anser is some air if you use a fan ...most of the cooling comes from the system itself.so you must figure that into your usage.now how to do that???i cannt do it... only the compressor manufacturer knows how much heat the unit will make..lots of variables.biggest is how effecient the compressor is.so you must always go bigger since this is so hard to know on a used unit.
now go to this link and download DISKETTE UH
http://www.rsd-tc.com/ordering/manuf...isp.cfm?id=132
this program will give you it all.capillary size and lenght everything for there units.

now dont worry about being too big in power.a compressor only uses what it needs to operate.if i take a 1 hp compressor and install it in my unit i will see a small to not any cooling change. this is because the compressor cannt do any more than the cappillary tube or exp vavle allows it to do.so if i used a 1 hp motor and only pulled 1/4hp of load the compressor will only put out 1/4hp of work.but it workes alot easyer than a 1/4hp compressor will because it is not under full load.there are good capillary charts that go by freon refridgerant used and watts or btu's of cooling needed.this allows only so much liguid in the evaperator at a time.too much and you flood the evap and risk liquid getting back to compressor .too little and you dont get proper cooling under load.
i hope i helped if not ask me and i will try to anser some more
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Unread 09-16-2002, 06:41 PM   #21
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I can confirm that, from data i've seen from some of those links: if your compressor is bigger than what it needs to be, you won't see a difference. The cooling ability is defined by the capilary tubes/expansion valve, not the compressor.

Right on Bowman.
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Unread 09-16-2002, 06:58 PM   #22
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Thanks , cool so that's one big problem solved
But I can't find that program on that link, could you email me this file or is it to big, if up to 3m please send it to turbo1@email.si

So what about NH3, is there any special compressor for that gas, would you even use it ?
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Unread 09-16-2002, 08:29 PM   #23
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bowman, i have liquid coming back on the suction line. LOTS of it. I am thinking extending the cap tube can do it. But how much should I extend it by? The system I am using is a kenmore dehumidifier 65 pint. 2500 BTU compressor with R22.
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Unread 09-16-2002, 08:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by SonixOS
bowman, i have liquid coming back on the suction line. LOTS of it. I am thinking extending the cap tube can do it. But how much should I extend it by? The system I am using is a kenmore dehumidifier 65 pint. 2500 BTU compressor with R22.
Your system is overcharged.Lower the charge and you wont get liquid coming back.But replacing the cap tube would be a good idea if it has a large diameter cap tube.
Usually air conditioners have short wide capillary,not sure if a dehumidifer does or not.

BTW are you capable if recharging it after changing the capillary?
To get rid of the liquid slugging you could heat the suction line using some kind of pipe heater.

But since it is overcharged,by lowering the charge you can get a lower liquid temp.
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Unread 09-16-2002, 09:15 PM   #25
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well yes aenigma is right.reduce your charge or the quickest and simplest thing to do with out breaking the system is to heat the suction line somehow with a cold weather pipe heater like home shops sell to keep pipes from freezeing in the winter.
o bye the way here's what i got today
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