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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 06-01-2003, 09:24 PM   #1
ciscokid454
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Default watercooling redesign questions/help

Ok..
I've got a couple questions...
currently i'm using
Swiftech mcw-5000a
swiftech mcw-50
danger den zchip NB cooler
Black Ice Extreme (fan mounted directly to it pulling out)
danger den rev 1 resevoir
ehiem 1060 (600gph)

(i've also got a kryotech unit attached to the cooling loop, but not currently using it..trying to figure out this problem first)
Ok, currently water temps with the fans pulling out are between 80-90F.
cpu @ 100F.
my friend believes that my pump is moving the water too fast, and so the rads never having enough time to cool it down..
thereby dumping the non-cooled water back into the loop.
Sound likely, plausible???
I know the rad isn't doing it's job properly, because if I use the kryotech..the temps are about the same...
any ideas or thoughts before I rip this all apart?
oh..also..i've got an old dual pump res, (two pumps inside a resevour) that I bought from overclockershideout.com several years ago..
I believe it to be two 65 gph pumps..
so say 130gph..if my current pump is moving too fast..would the 130gph pump be too slow?
thanks in advance
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Unread 06-01-2003, 11:27 PM   #2
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See other thread in this same forum - go searching (coz I am not going to do it for you).

Basically - I think the analagy was a racing car on an oval track, with the water block or radiator being a small section of track.

The faster a racing car goes, the less time it spends in that portion of the track PER LAP. However, over a defined period of time, the number of laps completed increases.

Hence, the total time spent in that section of track is NOT DEPENDENT on the speed of the car.

Take the analagy and apply it to your watercooling loop. The coolant spends some time in the waterblock, and some time in the radiator. Faster water flow is more "laps", each quicker. Same total time.

The impacts of faster pumps are:

1. Better cooling from better impingement and turbulence.

2. Worse cooling due to extra heat from the pump getting into the coolant.

Sorry, I am not conversant enough with ye olde worlde measuring units. I don't know cubits and I don't know feet or gallons. By memory, there are like 15 different definitions of a gallon anyway.

That said, the 1060 is typically "over the top" for even a two-block loop, introducing more heat than the additional flow rate benefits cooling.
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Unread 06-02-2003, 01:30 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Long Haired Git
See other thread in this same forum - go searching (coz I am not going to do it for you).

Basically - I think the analagy was a racing car on an oval track, with the water block or radiator being a small section of track.

The faster a racing car goes, the less time it spends in that portion of the track PER LAP. However, over a defined period of time, the number of laps completed increases.

Hence, the total time spent in that section of track is NOT DEPENDENT on the speed of the car.

Take the analagy and apply it to your watercooling loop. The coolant spends some time in the waterblock, and some time in the radiator. Faster water flow is more "laps", each quicker. Same total time.

The impacts of faster pumps are:

1. Better cooling from better impingement and turbulence.

2. Worse cooling due to extra heat from the pump getting into the coolant.

Sorry, I am not conversant enough with ye olde worlde measuring units. I don't know cubits and I don't know feet or gallons. By memory, there are like 15 different definitions of a gallon anyway.

That said, the 1060 is typically "over the top" for even a two-block loop, introducing more heat than the additional flow rate benefits cooling.
so in an all-around-about way..
or laymens terms..
yeah the pumps too fast..
I appreciate the help btw...
He and I used some formula to figure out that 17gals a sec..which I still can't believe..
.4085xgpm/tubing-size..
in my case .4085x10/.5(squared)
which ='s 16.34...!!
16.34 feet per second.
does that sound right?
Ok, so my question goes back..do you think that a 130gph pump would still be enough for my system?
Woops..sorry the hydor is 185gph and the eheim is 158gph..

pic of how I have it setup...and the waters flow..
thanks again..
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Unread 06-02-2003, 03:05 AM   #4
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Look below

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For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread.

READ ALL OF THIS!!!!
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Unread 06-02-2003, 10:28 AM   #5
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Also, there's no way that your actual flow rate is anywhere near 10 gpm. You'll have to do a bucket test, if you don't have a flow meter.

It looks to me like you could use a primer on the pressure that a pump provides. Check out Dave Smith's article on amdmb.com .

Your rig is fine. The pump might be a little overkill, but the only way you could say for sure, would be by first measuring your water temp: normally, it should be 5 to 10 deg C above ambient (a thermometer somewhere in the room), but because you opted for a BIX, it might be a few degrees higher.

Now if your water temp is 80 to 90 deg F (27 to 32 deg C). then the issue is with your BIX, not the pump.

As for the dual pump, you ought to look at Bill's review of the Swiftech block, to see what performance you can expect at those flow rates, assuming once again, that you can take into account the pressure that the pumps can provide.
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Unread 06-02-2003, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
Also, there's no way that your actual flow rate is anywhere near 10 gpm. You'll have to do a bucket test, if you don't have a flow meter.
It looks to me like you could use a primer on the pressure that a pump provides. Check out Dave Smith's article on amdmb.com .
Your rig is fine. The pump might be a little overkill, but the only way you could say for sure, would be by first measuring your water temp: normally, it should be 5 to 10 deg C above ambient (a thermometer somewhere in the room), but because you opted for a BIX, it might be a few degrees higher.
Now if your water temp is 80 to 90 deg F (27 to 32 deg C). then the issue is with your BIX, not the pump.
As for the dual pump, you ought to look at Bill's review of the Swiftech block, to see what performance you can expect at those flow rates, assuming once again, that you can take into account the pressure that the pumps can provide.
I really appreciate all the help here..
as far as the Dual Pump..i'm only thinking about it..to test, before I have to buy a new one..
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Unread 06-02-2003, 09:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
Also, there's no way that your actual flow rate is anywhere near 10 gpm. You'll have to do a bucket test, if you don't have a flow meter.

It looks to me like you could use a primer on the pressure that a pump provides. Check out Dave Smith's article on amdmb.com .

Your rig is fine. The pump might be a little overkill, but the only way you could say for sure, would be by first measuring your water temp: normally, it should be 5 to 10 deg C above ambient (a thermometer somewhere in the room), but because you opted for a BIX, it might be a few degrees higher.

Now if your water temp is 80 to 90 deg F (27 to 32 deg C). then the issue is with your BIX, not the pump.

As for the dual pump, you ought to look at Bill's review of the Swiftech block, to see what performance you can expect at those flow rates, assuming once again, that you can take into account the pressure that the pumps can provide.
what would you suggest as a replacement for the BIX?
A heatercore?
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Unread 06-02-2003, 09:55 PM   #8
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Well, that's what I suggest to start off with. In your case, I can only recomend the most cost efficient solution, and that would be to mount a couple of shrouds to your BIX, add a fan, and configure it in a push-pull arrangement.
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Unread 06-02-2003, 10:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
Well, that's what I suggest to start off with. In your case, I can only recomend the most cost efficient solution, and that would be to mount a couple of shrouds to your BIX, add a fan, and configure it in a push-pull arrangement.
I have shrouds on the one now..
it's too hard to explain how it's mounted right now..the temps are lower though.
I'm going to rip it all apart tomorrow night and figure it out...
hopefully i'll be able to take care of it all before the weekend..
again..I appreciate the help from all
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Unread 06-02-2003, 11:03 PM   #10
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Where can you buy a BIX?

Thanks
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Unread 06-02-2003, 11:03 PM   #11
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Best of luck: report results!
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Unread 06-02-2003, 11:57 PM   #12
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Silly me:
BIX=Black Ice Extreme
OK I get it.
DangerDen.
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Unread 06-03-2003, 01:18 AM   #13
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Default O.K. smarty pants...

How does your professional opinion like these apples...
1 Maze3 Block
1 Z-Chip Block
1 9800Pro Block
1 Ehiem 1260 (110/120 volt) 600GPH
1 Black Ice Xtreme II (holds 2 120mm fans) 6270BTU's per hour
1/2 Inch inner diameter hose
2 38Cfm 120mm fans
All this is one fast loop. No Y fitting for optimal flow. That is what your all saying right, execpt for ungreymatter, right?
I dont have the slightest clue in regards to numbers and formulas, but I do think I understand. Your saying it is a race or rather a tug of war, to see if the radiator can release heat faster then the heat can be accumilated over a constant loop, right.
Please dont hurt me it was unregistered's idea, just kidding.
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Unread 06-03-2003, 10:45 PM   #14
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Ok here I'm posting the results for Cisco since he's here:

With my pump an Eheim 1250 on his system and the kryo unit off and running Sandra burning the temps were 36C turning the kryo unit on the temps were 33C with burn in running. (idle temp is 30C).

With his pump on the system the idle temps are 33C in bios. Haven't done it with the burn in running but we already know that his pump causes the system to be higher.

Here's my theory: His pump moves the water too fast.

His theory: the pump is adding heat to the water.

Who do you think is closest to the correct answer? His pump is hotter than mine due to the size, but since they are both inline pumps, then the heat should be put into the air not the water. I would see the heat issue for a submergable pump.

Now here is something else. the water temps with the system powered off and the kryo on are 23 after the kryo cold block and 22 after the pump (before the kryo)

More to follow after some more testing.
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Unread 06-04-2003, 01:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikildemion
Ok here I'm posting the results for Cisco since he's here:

With my pump an Eheim 1250 on his system and the kryo unit off and running Sandra burning the temps were 36C turning the kryo unit on the temps were 33C with burn in running. (idle temp is 30C).

With his pump on the system the idle temps are 33C in bios. Haven't done it with the burn in running but we already know that his pump causes the system to be higher.

Here's my theory: His pump moves the water too fast.

His theory: the pump is adding heat to the water.

Who do you think is closest to the correct answer? His pump is hotter than mine due to the size, but since they are both inline pumps, then the heat should be put into the air not the water. I would see the heat issue for a submergable pump.

Now here is something else. the water temps with the system powered off and the kryo on are 23 after the kryo cold block and 22 after the pump (before the kryo)

More to follow after some more testing.
just a quick post before I crash..
it was really wierd the last 30 minutes
something changed..i have no clue..because we didn't touch anything..
temps started staying stationary on the water with the kryo on..
I turned the fan to the rad off..and the temps started dropping..
if I remember correctly..under load the cpu was then running 31.5c, water was 77.7/77.9 I think..at last count..and it was going lower..
it's like with all the time we had it on..it finally started working properly and was able to remove the load on the system..but I still don't understand why the temp coming off of it is cooler than coming off the pump..
if you look at my pic/diagram...
the pump is coming off of the res, then hits the rad, before hitting the kryo..
now to me..that should pull a decent amount of heat off the water before it hits the kryo..
but it was like 1.5 degree's warmer..
and that's reverse of what I had seen previously..
ugh..it's late..my brains fried from this..
we totally blew both theory's out of the water...
er..pardon the pun...
i'm totally baffled by the changes he and I saw..
we rebled the system..so it's clean..
we used the sponge from my pump..which I had never used before..but had read that it fixes the bubbling effect that that rev 1 danger den res's make..
and we repositioned my rad..and placed the fan with shroud better than it was..
just using one fan now/still
but I actually had to power the fan off and the kryotech took off runninglowering the temp..
:shrug:
i'm confused
thoughts anecdotes?
flames??
anything..ugh..night
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Unread 06-04-2003, 02:57 AM   #16
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idle
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Unread 06-04-2003, 03:37 AM   #17
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the idle temp for some reason shows as 25.5 on the above pic..
it had been 25.0 for ten minutes..so that's what i'm calling it at..
this is load..
it sat @ 27.5 for 46 runs of sandra burn in..
during the 47th is when it started going between 27.5 and 28..
@ 51 runs..it had stabilized @ 28..
that's fine..so i'm calling it 3 degreee's between idle and load at the time..
water temp was going up very slowly..
when I finished 50 runs of sandra it had reached 70.5 both from the pump and from the kryotech..
the kryotech is currently sitting @ -13c...and slowly dropping..
it's been going between =13and -14 for about 20 minutes..duiring the load testing..
72°F
Cloudy Feels Like
72°F
UV Index: 0 Minimal
Dew Point: 69°F
Humidity: 91%
current weather.com report..
so the water is right at the dew point..or will be momentarily
more later
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Unread 06-04-2003, 05:27 AM   #18
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ok..changing some things here..
trying to overclock due to the low temps..
I can post for settings save, but not repost between 9 and 10.5 between volts 1.7 and 2.2
however 11 works fine.????:shrug:
WTH!?!?
i'm currently running it 11x220@2.0v..
it's a little hotter than it was @ 8.5x240@1.7v with DCDDR.
and games/benchmarks crash to the desktop..err..
only certain ones..
I can play Enter the Matrix, JK2, and Quake3..it'll crash after a while..but it did that before I fixed the problems with the coolant loops..
but now..if I try to run UT2k3 or it's benchmark program...(using the one from hardocp.com or the ingame one)
or 3dmark 2k1/2k3...it'll start up the game/bench..run for a couple seconds..then crash to the desktop...UT2k3 actually gives me a page fault error of something..it's ut's error display though..
also..during UT's benchmarking..if I leave winbond up..I can hear it beeping..meaning it's reading strange voltages...or something else..I don't have a second mon hooked up to the system currently...i'm really in no rush to fix this this week...
although I really want to..I have to much to do before the weekend and my move..
if needbe I can hook up a spare monitor to it..to see what winbond is going off about..
i'll also say this..even though i'm selecting 2.0v in bios..it's only displaying 1.95 via winbond and MBM5.
it's funny(god I need sleep) with the system running so cool with the 8.5x240 settings...the kryotech had finally gotten down to
-16c.
i'm running it idle right now..
temps are very strange..
water temp's slowly going back up..the kryo's having a hard time getting back to -16..it's @ -11, or was when I left it a couple minutes ago..
I tried turning the fan on my rad on..
it's sitting in the 5.25 drive bays, (rad/fan) pulling air into the rad, and into the system..
with the fan on..the system and cpu temps dropped..
but the water temps went out faster than they did without it on..
so, again, liike earlier..i'm totally baffled and confused, but running 2420 Mhz or 2.4Ghz..
it started booting windows @ 12x230..but flipped out..
I would love to run 10x240, but the system will not post @ that setting no matter what voltage I give it..
but then agian..i've always had problems with 9.0, 9.5, 10.0 and 10.5
5-8.5 and 11-13 have always worked fine for me..
so being the first of the morning, i'm about to crash..i'll let anyone who wants to, to give me some idea's...thoughts, opinions...or whatever..
and i'll see what I can do with it before saturday morning..
thanks agian...
i'll also ask one last question before I crash..
If I seal up the watercooled components with dielectric grease, and the other needed condensation fighters..what is/what would be, the safest lowest water temp I could boot the computer up at?
obviously with the kryo taking so long to lower the water temp..if I let it lower it below 55c, and the components are protected agianst condensation..it should work without a hitch..if I do it correctly, and take my time..
or is there a limit to the cold?
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Unread 06-04-2003, 05:28 AM   #19
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forgot this
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Unread 06-04-2003, 02:08 PM   #20
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Oh god use paragraphs. I skipped the last few posts because I'm at work and canwade through that, but:

Quote:
Here's my theory: His pump moves the water too fast.
Nope. Faster is always better.

I'd look at getting a heatercore. Your Black Ice maybe a little underpower. Also don't belive the BTU numbers some places have, all lies.
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Unread 06-06-2003, 04:57 PM   #21
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I've noticed a lot of water cooling rigs here. I was wondering has anyone used the Gemini Cool line of Water blocks?

Like those sold at: http://www.case-mod.com/

So far I have these parts:

MaxXxpert Radiator (ebay.com)
D-Tek (5.25") Drive Bay Reservoir (case-mod.com)
10' - 1/2"OD 3/8" ID Tubing (Not Silicon) (H&E Hardware)
and a handful of hose clamps (H&E Hardware)
--------------------------------------------------
My next purchase is going to be one of those 12vdc water pumps (Johnson/Jabsco) for about $39.28 (US$).
I have a fairly small case internally (17"x17"x7.25" or 425mm x 425mm x 181mm) to install this all into, My new motherboard is an 8RDA+ r1.1 with the Latest chipset chips (ebay for $66.00 + $6.00 shipping) in It, I have to install some heatsinks on the mosfets first, before I install It. And the case is really an "Extremely Modified" Ocean D908 (They don't sell this case in the USA anymore, So parts are impossible to get, as far as I know)
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