Idea for a simple Radeon RAM block

redleader · 06-04-2003, 02:32 AM

Well since my GFTi 4200 bit the dust for no apprent reason I guess I'll be getting a Radeon shortly. That means I need a way to watercool it.

Leadtek was nice enough to cover their entire GF card in an alumium heatspreader. All I needed to do was watercool the spreader and my RAM was easy to overclock.

I'd like to do the same thing with my new card. Basically machine a plate that gets all 8 RAM chips on a Radeon out of cheap and easy to work with Alumium. Then solder a simple copper block to the top and bottom to carry away the heat.

Has anyone done this? Any idea how well it would perform?

Khledar · 06-04-2003, 02:46 AM

Depending on the layout o the card you actually decide to get, if might be easier to make "individual" blocks. A lot depends on the card coniguration, luckily, most are almost identical configs. But if you have some of those big caps and stuff, they might be hard to work around, liek if you have a row separating two heat sources, you will need enough Alu to carry the heat well, so it might need to be quite thick, so that the holes for the caps dont go all the way through. I don't really have any experience with machineing somethign liek this, but I imagine precision is also a factor, like when you clamp it on the PCB will obviously have a little give, but you will need clamping force in the right places, also some of the radeons will have ram on the back, which is another challenge. I would definately wiat till you get the card, and take allt he measurements you will need and then see if it's feasible (you would probably be able to tell just by looking but... shrug calipers are cool).

Volenti · 06-04-2003, 03:20 AM

I've been looking at watercooling the ram on my 9700 for some time but so far I've been side tracked by other projects, but which ever setup you end up doing it won't be a simple block to design or make.

MadDogMe · 06-04-2003, 09:42 AM

I've just paid off my PC componant debt and have started a new one

. Just ordered a 9700Gold(300MHZcore) for £185 (£175 for 9700). Does the RAM get hot even when you H2o the VPU?. I know some RAM gets VERY hot because the core seeps loads of heat into the surrounding PCB when aircooling is used, but hardly gets warm when the core is well cooled...

redleader · 06-04-2003, 01:01 PM

I hope pounds are not similar to dollars cause I just paid $175 for a 9600 Pro

9700s are about 50 more.

Anyway I'm not making a waterblock. already have one. Rather I'm machineing an aluminum heatspreader and soldering a block to it.

#Rotor · 06-04-2003, 05:39 PM

just imagine

redleader · 06-04-2003, 07:46 PM

Rotor blocks to cool 5w DRAMs? Man you have too much time

Mind if I ask how those mount? All the 9600 pics I've seen seem to lack the dozens of screw holes that cover Nvidia boards. I could use some advice.

#Rotor · 06-04-2003, 08:08 PM

you will probably not believe me when I tell you, but normal RTV sealant, has rather good thermal properties. way good enough for 5W that's for sure... maybe not what you would want to use on an AMD cpu.... but for keeping a block on a chipset, without any damage to any component what so ever, and completely removable afterwards... you will be hard pressed to beat a dab of sealant.... excluding of coarse when you do have the mounting holes.....

be careful though... sometimes the stick, is so good that you might not be able to get the block off again.... I usually put a couple of dots off silicone thermal paste (or as3 if you wish) in the middle, then squeeze a neat thin little circle around it, with about 5mm radius from the dot of paste, to give it somwhere to squeeze into. carefull not to complete the circle, as you would want to give the trapped air a path to escape, then just neatly press down on the block, making sure is squeezes into a nice firn contact, and let stand for a while to give the RTV some chance to dry.... [UTTAOR]

redleader · 06-04-2003, 08:28 PM

Thats an interesting idea. I'd be afriad that the glue would slip off over time as the tube pulled on it, but maybe not.

How long have you been trying this?

#Rotor · 06-04-2003, 09:41 PM

well, I had been using this way, ever since I got my first Asus A7v mobo....

in this pic you see my very first chipset block, being held in place in such fashion. I never ever had any problems with it detaching itself.... in fact, I had a rather difficult time getting it off.... from there my warning to be careful, sealant between to flat surfaces, , combined with it's elasticity, makes for a very potent stick....

MadDogMe · 06-05-2003, 02:53 AM

9600pro £145

...

I remember reading where this bloke swore that he got better temps by using epoxy resin glue than heatpaste, it was on a P2~3 333 or something

...

dr.chaos · 06-05-2003, 04:19 AM

I don't know if this will work for RTV silicon too, but when I was experimenting "normal" acetic silicon to attach heatsinks to overclocked Slot A/1 CPUs I found that mixing in a cup some drops of ethylic alchool to silicon removes the bad smell and gives you the possibility to obtain a thinner layer between the chip and the heatsink, while giving you a really strong bond.

Hope it helps.

msv · 06-05-2003, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redleader
I hope pounds are not similar to dollars cause I just paid $175 for a 9600 Pro

9700s are about 50 more.

Calculation through Swedish crowns a pound equals 14/8 dollar, roughly, but exact enough to show the picture.
Redleader: 5W is enough to get those RAMs quite hot, try touching one. Second thought: Don´t.

Of course it´s a lot easier to motivate a WB if one likes drilling.
regards
Mikael S.

JSimmons · 06-05-2003, 08:16 AM

An aluminum c-clamp wth a tension screw on one side could be used to anchor the waterblocks, something like the picture below. The beauty is that you only need two clamps for the whole deal.

BladeRunner · 06-06-2003, 03:57 PM

I hate gluing anything as I don't see it as a true engineering solution, but sometimes it is the only option. I recently made a water-block for the hot mosfets on my mobo, (after trying a passive sink without much success), both sink & waterblock were & are held on with an artic silver epoxy mixed three parts with Artic silver paste. I mixed it 1 part of each epoxy tube & 1 part AS3 paste. This ensures the glue is rubbery and so in theory can be removed later, (the passive sink I used came off with a gentle pry).

Looking at the 9600 pro it's layout is much simpler than the 9700 & 9800 having no higher components near the ram chips. This created some problems when I made some ram blocks for a 9700 pro and I had to mill the base in key areas to avoid these. If a copper base plate could be milled accurately enough, (engineering machine shop maybe) then you could make one block to cover the VPU and ram for the frontside and a ram block for the backside that could use the VPU retaining holes for mounting (blocks bolt together sandwiching card in-between)

redleader · 06-06-2003, 04:48 PM

Just becareful with that AS. Although its listed as nonconductive like silicone paste, I bet it would still short small enough traces. Thats what happened to my old GF4 (and forced me to get a Radeon), Leadtek's paste worked its way off the RAM chips and into those hair-like traces. I cleaned it all off but the card was fried and I ended up with the tab since I'd modded the card a little.

BladeRunner · 06-06-2003, 05:05 PM

AS is non conductive in it's normal state as tested with an expensive multimeter. here is their tech info on it however

Quote:

Negligible electrical conductivity.
Arctic Silver 3 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity. It is only electrically conductive in a thin layer under extreme compression.
(While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 3 should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. The compound is slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridged two close-proximity electrical paths.)

Khledar · 06-06-2003, 06:09 PM

I've had some pretty bad experiences with AS - and others that indicate otherwise.

One of my "less comptuer literate" friends decided AS3 over the WHOLE top of his 1.4GHz TB was a good idea. It worked fine.

On another occasion, I had a GF4 4400 which I was reinstalling the HS on, I got a bit of AS3 on my fingers, and a couple fingerprints later, no POST, a couple q-tips and some alcohol, and she was fine.

Shrug, I use Acrtic Alumina epoxy, makes me feel safer. But if your mixture allows for removal, it wouldn't be so bad, I just wouldn't want to get stuck with an electrical short...

MadDogMe · 06-07-2003, 03:33 AM

Redleader!, get a bottle of isopropal alcohol and a 1mm (insulin) syringe. Spray the alcohol over and under the chip as well as doing the whole board, ram traces, BIOS traces the lot!...

I've had two leadtech cards die (Gf2pro and Ti500) and be reserected by 'spirit' cleaning them. I'd be genuinly surprised if that Gf4 is DEAD dead, I bet it's sleeping

...

I've had one boot as a quadro for a week until I cleaned the BIOS chip

...

I've had one spout pink 'expanding wall foam' like stuff from one of the Surface Mount capacitors and die, and an then work after being cleaned with WD40!!!...

I've had one sprout 'dots' all over the screen until I cleaned the RAM with spirits/alcohol, it was dust though not AS/silicon that time...

Basicly I think there IS a short that needs cleaning off. just give it a go or post it to me

...

Khledar · 06-07-2003, 04:51 AM

Quite interesting MadDogMe, I've had some very similar incidents, one mentioned above, other heart stoppers involving that brand new super fanstic (and expensive) hardware, but alas; cleaning well, even where it doesn't appear to have AS/other crap can often resume one's heart's normal operation.

Also, another tip is that 99% isopropyl alcohol is far better at cleaning than ~70 odd %, although it stings a LOT more on cuts etc - ohhh yeah feel the burn!!!

The feeling of healing

Never though of a syringe, quite a nifty idea actually - kudos MDM.

MadDogMe · 06-07-2003, 05:13 AM

I used it primarily to get under the GPU chip where all the pins connect to the PCB, then found it was perfect for 'blowing clear' in under the RAM pins as well (when dirty I got pixelation/dots all over screen). I use a soft artists painting brush as well, soak it in 100% iso (from chemist that use it for developing films) and brush off easier accesable areas. Use the syringe full of iso' where you can't get with the brush...

I don't know if all makes are as vulnerable but Leadteks are VERY vulnerable to dirt/dust. The booting as a quadro had me baffled for days!, then I brushed of the BIOS legs/pins and it was A OK again. I read that you can mod the BIOS pins with a resitor to mod it to a quadro. Heaven knows why you would though!, it makes it slower in OpenGL games!. Only CAD programs benifit from the added quadro features...

BladeRunner · 06-07-2003, 01:05 PM

I use brake cleaner in a aerosol can format, spray it on & blow it clean with an airline after I've removed the majority of any paste with brake cleaner on cotton buds first. Works well, but it can harm some plastics as it contains toluene.

MadDogMe · 06-08-2003, 02:44 AM

I'd imagine that stuffs expensive?...

BladeRunner · 06-08-2003, 05:06 AM

Not particulary, and I use it for other purposes as well

Auto Care - Brake Cleaner - 500ml - AC10

redleader · 06-08-2003, 09:59 PM

Quote:

I've had one boot as a quadro for a week until I cleaned the BIOS chip

Holy shit mine did that for a week before it failed.

06-04-2003, 02:32 AM	#1
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Idea for a simple Radeon RAM block Well since my GFTi 4200 bit the dust for no apprent reason I guess I'll be getting a Radeon shortly. That means I need a way to watercool it. Leadtek was nice enough to cover their entire GF card in an alumium heatspreader. All I needed to do was watercool the spreader and my RAM was easy to overclock. I'd like to do the same thing with my new card. Basically machine a plate that gets all 8 RAM chips on a Radeon out of cheap and easy to work with Alumium. Then solder a simple copper block to the top and bottom to carry away the heat. Has anyone done this? Any idea how well it would perform?

06-04-2003, 02:46 AM	#2
Khledar Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Vancouver BC Posts: 234	Depending on the layout o the card you actually decide to get, if might be easier to make "individual" blocks. A lot depends on the card coniguration, luckily, most are almost identical configs. But if you have some of those big caps and stuff, they might be hard to work around, liek if you have a row separating two heat sources, you will need enough Alu to carry the heat well, so it might need to be quite thick, so that the holes for the caps dont go all the way through. I don't really have any experience with machineing somethign liek this, but I imagine precision is also a factor, like when you clamp it on the PCB will obviously have a little give, but you will need clamping force in the right places, also some of the radeons will have ram on the back, which is another challenge. I would definately wiat till you get the card, and take allt he measurements you will need and then see if it's feasible (you would probably be able to tell just by looking but... shrug calipers are cool). __________________ "mooooo" said the cow. ERTW - UBC P4 2.4B @3.01Ghz 167FSB :: Abit IC7 :: 2x256MB HyperX PC3700 :: ASUS 9600XT :: WD Raptor 2x36GB RAID0

06-04-2003, 03:20 AM	#3
Volenti Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: in a nice cool spot Posts: 427	I've been looking at watercooling the ram on my 9700 for some time but so far I've been side tracked by other projects, but which ever setup you end up doing it won't be a simple block to design or make. __________________ feel free to icq/msn me, I'm always willing to toss around ideas.

06-04-2003, 05:39 PM	#6
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	just imagine __________________ There is no Spoon.... Last edited by #Rotor; 06-09-2003 at 06:17 AM.

06-04-2003, 08:08 PM	#8
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	you will probably not believe me when I tell you, but normal RTV sealant, has rather good thermal properties. way good enough for 5W that's for sure... maybe not what you would want to use on an AMD cpu.... but for keeping a block on a chipset, without any damage to any component what so ever, and completely removable afterwards... you will be hard pressed to beat a dab of sealant.... excluding of coarse when you do have the mounting holes..... be careful though... sometimes the stick, is so good that you might not be able to get the block off again.... I usually put a couple of dots off silicone thermal paste (or as3 if you wish) in the middle, then squeeze a neat thin little circle around it, with about 5mm radius from the dot of paste, to give it somwhere to squeeze into. carefull not to complete the circle, as you would want to give the trapped air a path to escape, then just neatly press down on the block, making sure is squeezes into a nice firn contact, and let stand for a while to give the RTV some chance to dry.... [UTTAOR] __________________ There is no Spoon....

06-04-2003, 09:42 AM	#4
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I've just paid off my PC componant debt and have started a new one . Just ordered a 9700Gold(300MHZcore) for £185 (£175 for 9700). Does the RAM get hot even when you H2o the VPU?. I know some RAM gets VERY hot because the core seeps loads of heat into the surrounding PCB when aircooling is used, but hardly gets warm when the core is well cooled...

06-04-2003, 01:01 PM	#5
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	I hope pounds are not similar to dollars cause I just paid $175 for a 9600 Pro 9700s are about 50 more. Anyway I'm not making a waterblock. already have one. Rather I'm machineing an aluminum heatspreader and soldering a block to it.

06-04-2003, 07:46 PM	#7
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Rotor blocks to cool 5w DRAMs? Man you have too much time Mind if I ask how those mount? All the 9600 pics I've seen seem to lack the dozens of screw holes that cover Nvidia boards. I could use some advice.

06-04-2003, 08:28 PM	#9
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Thats an interesting idea. I'd be afriad that the glue would slip off over time as the tube pulled on it, but maybe not. How long have you been trying this?

06-04-2003, 09:41 PM	#10
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	well, I had been using this way, ever since I got my first Asus A7v mobo.... in this pic you see my very first chipset block, being held in place in such fashion. I never ever had any problems with it detaching itself.... in fact, I had a rather difficult time getting it off.... from there my warning to be careful, sealant between to flat surfaces, , combined with it's elasticity, makes for a very potent stick.... __________________ There is no Spoon....

06-05-2003, 02:53 AM	#11
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	9600pro £145 ... I remember reading where this bloke swore that he got better temps by using epoxy resin glue than heatpaste, it was on a P2~3 333 or something ...

06-05-2003, 04:19 AM	#12
dr.chaos Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Viareggio (Italy) Posts: 11	I don't know if this will work for RTV silicon too, but when I was experimenting "normal" acetic silicon to attach heatsinks to overclocked Slot A/1 CPUs I found that mixing in a cup some drops of ethylic alchool to silicon removes the bad smell and gives you the possibility to obtain a thinner layer between the chip and the heatsink, while giving you a really strong bond. Hope it helps.

06-06-2003, 03:57 PM	#15
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	I hate gluing anything as I don't see it as a true engineering solution, but sometimes it is the only option. I recently made a water-block for the hot mosfets on my mobo, (after trying a passive sink without much success), both sink & waterblock were & are held on with an artic silver epoxy mixed three parts with Artic silver paste. I mixed it 1 part of each epoxy tube & 1 part AS3 paste. This ensures the glue is rubbery and so in theory can be removed later, (the passive sink I used came off with a gentle pry). Looking at the 9600 pro it's layout is much simpler than the 9700 & 9800 having no higher components near the ram chips. This created some problems when I made some ram blocks for a 9700 pro and I had to mill the base in key areas to avoid these. If a copper base plate could be milled accurately enough, (engineering machine shop maybe) then you could make one block to cover the VPU and ram for the frontside and a ram block for the backside that could use the VPU retaining holes for mounting (blocks bolt together sandwiching card in-between) __________________ Zero Fan Zone

06-06-2003, 04:48 PM	#16
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Just becareful with that AS. Although its listed as nonconductive like silicone paste, I bet it would still short small enough traces. Thats what happened to my old GF4 (and forced me to get a Radeon), Leadtek's paste worked its way off the RAM chips and into those hair-like traces. I cleaned it all off but the card was fried and I ended up with the tab since I'd modded the card a little.

06-06-2003, 06:09 PM	#18
Khledar Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Vancouver BC Posts: 234	I've had some pretty bad experiences with AS - and others that indicate otherwise. One of my "less comptuer literate" friends decided AS3 over the WHOLE top of his 1.4GHz TB was a good idea. It worked fine. On another occasion, I had a GF4 4400 which I was reinstalling the HS on, I got a bit of AS3 on my fingers, and a couple fingerprints later, no POST, a couple q-tips and some alcohol, and she was fine. Shrug, I use Acrtic Alumina epoxy, makes me feel safer. But if your mixture allows for removal, it wouldn't be so bad, I just wouldn't want to get stuck with an electrical short... __________________ "mooooo" said the cow. ERTW - UBC P4 2.4B @3.01Ghz 167FSB :: Abit IC7 :: 2x256MB HyperX PC3700 :: ASUS 9600XT :: WD Raptor 2x36GB RAID0

06-07-2003, 03:33 AM	#19
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Redleader!, get a bottle of isopropal alcohol and a 1mm (insulin) syringe. Spray the alcohol over and under the chip as well as doing the whole board, ram traces, BIOS traces the lot!... I've had two leadtech cards die (Gf2pro and Ti500) and be reserected by 'spirit' cleaning them. I'd be genuinly surprised if that Gf4 is DEAD dead, I bet it's sleeping ... I've had one boot as a quadro for a week until I cleaned the BIOS chip ... I've had one spout pink 'expanding wall foam' like stuff from one of the Surface Mount capacitors and die, and an then work after being cleaned with WD40!!!... I've had one sprout 'dots' all over the screen until I cleaned the RAM with spirits/alcohol, it was dust though not AS/silicon that time... Basicly I think there IS a short that needs cleaning off. just give it a go or post it to me ...

06-07-2003, 04:51 AM	#20
Khledar Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Vancouver BC Posts: 234	Quite interesting MadDogMe, I've had some very similar incidents, one mentioned above, other heart stoppers involving that brand new super fanstic (and expensive) hardware, but alas; cleaning well, even where it doesn't appear to have AS/other crap can often resume one's heart's normal operation. Also, another tip is that 99% isopropyl alcohol is far better at cleaning than ~70 odd %, although it stings a LOT more on cuts etc - ohhh yeah feel the burn!!! The feeling of healing Never though of a syringe, quite a nifty idea actually - kudos MDM. __________________ "mooooo" said the cow. ERTW - UBC P4 2.4B @3.01Ghz 167FSB :: Abit IC7 :: 2x256MB HyperX PC3700 :: ASUS 9600XT :: WD Raptor 2x36GB RAID0

06-07-2003, 05:13 AM	#21
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I used it primarily to get under the GPU chip where all the pins connect to the PCB, then found it was perfect for 'blowing clear' in under the RAM pins as well (when dirty I got pixelation/dots all over screen). I use a soft artists painting brush as well, soak it in 100% iso (from chemist that use it for developing films) and brush off easier accesable areas. Use the syringe full of iso' where you can't get with the brush... I don't know if all makes are as vulnerable but Leadteks are VERY vulnerable to dirt/dust. The booting as a quadro had me baffled for days!, then I brushed of the BIOS legs/pins and it was A OK again. I read that you can mod the BIOS pins with a resitor to mod it to a quadro. Heaven knows why you would though!, it makes it slower in OpenGL games!. Only CAD programs benifit from the added quadro features...

06-07-2003, 01:05 PM	#22
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	I use brake cleaner in a aerosol can format, spray it on & blow it clean with an airline after I've removed the majority of any paste with brake cleaner on cotton buds first. Works well, but it can harm some plastics as it contains toluene. __________________ Zero Fan Zone

06-08-2003, 02:44 AM	#23
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I'd imagine that stuffs expensive?...

06-08-2003, 05:06 AM	#24
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Not particulary, and I use it for other purposes as well Auto Care - Brake Cleaner - 500ml - AC10 __________________ Zero Fan Zone

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