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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 09-30-2003, 09:32 PM   #26
BrianW
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Quote:
In this configuration, the setup becomes more like a series loop with 2 pumps.
This is a very true statement,and I think a better way to think of it. Now hear me out on this type of config:

Components:

Cascade

Swiftech GPU and NB blocks

Two Pass Heatercore (12.125" X 7.875")

Iwaki MD15RT ( Cause I already have it)

2 X MCP600

Res 1: One inlet from HC, two outlets to loop1a & loop1b
Res 2: Two inlets from loop1a & loop1b, one outlet to loop2

loop 1a: from Res1>>1/2"ID>>MCP600a>>1/2"ID>>Cascade>>1/2"ID>>Res2
loop 1b: from Res1>>1/2"ID>>MCP600a>>1/2"ID>>GPU>>1/2"ID>>NB>>1/2"ID>>Res2
loop2: from Res2>>1/2"ID>>Iwaki>>1/2"ID>>HC>>1/2"ID>>Res1

What do you think? I believe it would have high overall flow. The block restrictions will be in paralel halving their head with respect to flow through the entire system, and the hc. The Hc is the only part in true series. The blocks are in series with respect to the hc and entire system, but run paralel with a pump each. That pump is also adjustable. So some tuning of balanced flow thru blocks could maybe be realized. Also with two res, I can make the tubing extraordinarily shorter. An added benefit as well. The only reason i suggest 3 pumps is because at only 8watts each for the two MCP600's, little heat would be added to the system due to pumps. The Iwaki consumes a deal more, but does not add much heat to the loop. My Eheim 1250 seemed to get the hc warmer with the machine turned off and no fans.


Brian
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Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)

Last edited by BrianW; 09-30-2003 at 10:09 PM.
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Unread 09-30-2003, 09:38 PM   #27
Sin22
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If you dont get more flow from using three pumps, I will be very very shocked.

That statement from georgeteo was from an observation I made here in his thread over at CMF.

Regardless, it would be something that I'd enjoy seeing though, just for proof of concept.
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Unread 09-30-2003, 09:54 PM   #28
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Sin22 wrote:
Quote:
I bring you back to the thermal equilibrium statement i made earlier. The water will rise to a temperature that will be equilibrium to the amount of heat that is being dumped into it, and the amount of heat that is being removed by the radiator. Having a faster flow rate has no change on this at all.

Think of it as a F1 race car. In a 200hr time span it will lap a race course 200 times but if you take a point on the course and calculate the amount of time it spent there, it would be 200secs say. Now take a car which has half the speed. In a 200hr time span, it will lap the course 100 times. And in due course taking a point and the time spent there, it will also be 200secs.
There is an added benefit to higher flow. Higher flow will make the waterblocks pump more heat into the water. I believe it has been said that a sweet spot with heatercores is at a certain flow. I do not remember where it was or what the value was. But I believe high flow blocks like the Swifteck models do indeed benefit from higher flow.

Thoughts?

BrianW
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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-01-2003, 12:15 AM   #29
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Aye I do agree that higher flow is beneficial to waterblocks. BillA's testing has shown us that. However, do look at some of the C/W vs. Flow rate graphs on O/cers.com or Swiftech's webbie.

There comes a point of diminishing returns. Once the knee in the C/W graphs has passed, the decrease in C/W in relation to increase in lpm becomes a linear progression, with a fairly shallow gradient IMO. Then further translating the C/W into real world temperatures. How much more temp difference or performance difference will you be obtaining by jacking up your flow from 5lpm to 10lpm ?

Taking for example the MCW5002 graphs.

That doubling of flow rate resulted in less than 0.1C/W increase in performance. Real world assuming an 80W temp source would be a change in 8deg. A fair amount in theory. in reality though?

I agree that high flow is definitely worth it, but at what cost?


As to the sweet spot for heatercores. I believe the Thermochill evaluation done @ O/cers.com was what you'd be looking for.

To me, reading the graphs there, it would appear that the base trade off would be a 5~7lpm flow rate inside the rad (120mm sized rad) before once more a point of diminishing returns takes place.

But all of the above is my own personal beliefs.

I am interested to see what sort of performance you do get from it. I mean at the end of the day you can make all these theorectical comparisons and comparisons with data that is seen online, but its still doing it yourself that matters. Even if you dont get the performance that you may have initially wanted, its an experience and something that would educate both yourself and those who kept track on your work.

Last edited by Sin22; 10-01-2003 at 07:55 AM.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 03:44 AM   #30
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I did something similar with my res . My bleed fill lines connect to the res. The res is a PVC T fitting. The josnson pump is connected to the side outlet. The top line is the air/water exit. 1 of the lower lines is a fill tube while th other 2 are just returns.

If I flush the system with a soap mixture some will run out but most will run through the system. It takes about 2 minutes of running water through the fill tube and letting water out of the escape tube to get all the soap out. It also makes flushing the air out of the system pretty easy as the escaping water carries out.

My point though is the water gets pretty well mixed in the res. The only problem I'd see in using a secondary cooling loop would be the fact you could never get the coolant to ambient. However I could see using a secondary loop for use with some kind of filter.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 07:49 AM   #31
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haha...if my experiment fails .. at least I won't be alone right BrianW.

Just got my 2nd pump yesterday...still waiting for my blocks though. Maybe if u wait a little longer, I could tell u if our little theory works or not That might help u save some dough.

Do remember, tubing does matter for high flow rates. There was a tubing recommendation graph that I say somewhere b4. I think it went somewhere along the lines of 1000lph 1/2" tubing 2000lph 3/4" tubing. Thus, I might give my CPU block a 16/22mm tubing straight from the pump. Once the water goes inside the block, there is nothing much I can do anymore.....:shrug:

Last edited by georgeteo; 10-01-2003 at 07:55 AM.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 07:48 PM   #32
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Reducing one part of your tubing run will not help much. You want your tubing to be minmial in genral. This is the most important factor in the design stage. Eliminate lengthy tubing runs. If you have really long tubing runs, over 2 feet, I would run those in paralel to reduce the pressure drop. You could also find a way to do long tubing runs with much larger hose, but that becomes difficult.

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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-01-2003, 07:51 PM   #33
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Keep in mind SIN the main purpose of this is to make a multi block system perform the same as a single block system. The overall flow I predict would be around 8-10lpm, with the block fows somewhere near 4-5 lpm each. This is more of a target than true prediction.

BrianW
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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-01-2003, 08:17 PM   #34
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I await expectantly for your results
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Unread 10-01-2003, 11:02 PM   #35
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The pic attached is how i would set it up:


The the extra line coming out of the outlet of the radiator is for recirculation, you use the valve to fine tune how much water you want going to the blocks, any unused water gets returned back to the tank, which is has been cooled by the radiator already. This makes it so theres more flow through the radiator than the blocks, therefore it's easier to cool down the water.

For this to work you should probably run 1/2 tubing from each pump, when they join, go to 5/8 or 3/4 to the rad, then out of the rad run 1/2 to the blocks, and make the recirculation line 1/2 as well.

With this setup you could get a ton of flow through the radiator, and plenty through the blocks, and still some to recirculate to cool the water down more.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 11:26 PM   #36
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Running the pumps in paralel will do nothing to minimize the head. In that setup i would run them in series, or just use one large pump. The valve is a good idea if you have a very restrictive type rad. Like in airspirits case. His valve worked out pretty good.

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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-01-2003, 11:42 PM   #37
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A restrictive rad doesn't really help this setup. The point of the setup is to have a VERY free flowing rad, so you have more water going though it than the blocks do. The valve and recirculation line allows you to have more water passing though the radiator.

I think the pumps in paralell would help the flow, IF you went with 1/2 tubing from each pump, then joined them in a single 3/4 line, if you used 2 half inch lines into 1 half inch line, you would be choking off the flow.
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Unread 10-02-2003, 12:11 AM   #38
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Yeah his valve was before the radiator. I see how your setup will let the radiator cool the water more, but from the various flow charts I have read once you have a large radiator with decent airflow, you will be at .015 C/W, so the blocks will be more limiting to total system performance.

Also, whatever flow gets redirected back to the res, will be taken away from the potential flow of the waterblock run. Therefore decreasing your waterblocks performance, while increasing radiator performance minimaly. IMO

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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-02-2003, 12:47 AM   #39
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The extra cooling from recirculation might make up for the less flow (in the case that you used 2 high flow pumps) ?

Also, mag drive pumps have barely any pressure, so it's hard to force the water at maximum flow rate though the system, so the recirculation valve in theory would use water that wouldn't have been used in the first place since flow rate would peak out, unless you raise the pressure.

If you had the same setup with pumps that would put out a few PSI of pressure, then you would want all the water going to the blocks since theres enough pressure to move it all through without it slowing down. A recirculation valve with high pressure pumps would hurt performance since pressure is lost.

These are just ideas though.......
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Unread 10-02-2003, 03:50 AM   #40
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There will be little to no extra cooling. The rad is almost working at its optimum already. Like I said a large heater core already is working @ .015 C/W.

BrianW
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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-02-2003, 09:15 AM   #41
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Brian,


In case you missed it, WC101 (www.wc101.com) just reviewed a bay cooler that might come in handy.
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Unread 10-02-2003, 04:17 PM   #42
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Hehehe, in case you missed my sig..... Hahahaah that is too funny. Any way I am pretty sure I will be going with dual reservoirs on this one.

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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-02-2003, 06:27 PM   #43
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Oops, my bad!

After using up 6 drive bays for PSUs , I just hate to see a fellow use one unecessarily. :shrug:

You're going to post a pic, right?
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Unread 10-02-2003, 07:20 PM   #44
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On my next rig the reservoirs will be made by me. My first was also made by me, although with the new config in my current box, I opted for a premade one.

I have no digi.... I am trying to borrow a buddies.

BrianW
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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-03-2003, 11:45 PM   #45
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I have done one better than that. i am running a 2 loop system also, but each loop has it's own rad & pump. I have the cpu loop running just the cpu block, and the gpu loop runs the gpu/chipset blocks. On the cpu loop i have a thermochill rad with 4 120mm fans on it and the gpu loop has a bix 2 with 4 fans on it. Both loops share a quad bay res. I have all of this in a full tower case that has been cut up to fit the rads. I had to move my 2 hdd up into the upper portion of the case and hung the bix 2 from the ceiling or the tower. the pumps are ehiem and a danner mag. my temps are lower than they have ever been. At full load I run 5.5 - 6 above ambient room temp.

system specs:

AMD 1700 @ 2405Ghz, vcore @ 1.95
1 gig pc 3200, fsb @ 200
custom RBX water block (cpu), DD maze 4 GPU (on 5900U)(btw 5900 oc'ed @ 575/1.1Ghz), and dd z-chip
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Unread 10-04-2003, 06:56 AM   #46
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Nice setup dude

As for me .. i've leaving most of my stuff out of the casing ... cause I don't want to clutter it up with too many runs of tubing.
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Unread 10-04-2003, 11:14 AM   #47
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A requirement for me is to have everything in the case. I often go to LAN parties. Another requirement is to use only one large Heatercore. That reason is because I already have it. I can not wait to try this out, unfortunately I will have to wait for some fundage. I just built a new game server for our clan, and not too many donations were received from our ungrateful members....

BrianW
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Water Cooled Inwin Q500 (Dual Rads: Rad1 = DTEK Pro Core | Rad2 = Blick Ice Estreme, Hydor L30, Dangerden Maze2, Bay Res Typhoon Reservoir, 1/2 " DD Tygon Thick Wall Hose).

Flow: Res, Pump, CPU watervlock, Y into both rads, both rads into res independently.

Athlon XP 1800+ (@ 1731 - 150mhz fsb.), on a Asus A7N266-c, and a Radeon 9000 *waiting for RMA'd Saphire 9800 ultra from Newegg)
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Unread 10-04-2003, 03:04 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrianW
A requirement for me is to have everything in the case. I often go to LAN parties. Another requirement is to use only one large Heatercore. That reason is because I already have it. I can not wait to try this out, unfortunately I will have to wait for some fundage. I just built a new game server for our clan, and not too many donations were received from our ungrateful members....

BrianW

Those darn ungratefull members!!!
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