Lemon Block Cu 2 (development thread) - Page 3

jaydee · 11-03-2003, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFettig
ok jaydee,

Quote:

Whats bigger? 1 danner or 2 vias? (vias of course)

They can go in parallel anywhere in the system and their heat is not concentrated in one area. AND 2 VIA 1300 are NOT bigger than one Danner Mag 5 or 7. Also 1 VIA 2600 is smaller than one Danner and half the price.

Quote:

what runs cooler? 1 danner or 2 vias? or even 1 via...(via of course)

Yup.

Quote:

Whats louder? 1 danner or 2 vias?(even 1 via is)

Noise isn't an issue. The case is made of 5/8" particle board and not in an area where it will matter anyway.

Quote:

Whats more reliable? 1 danner or 2 vias?(you get what you pay for)

You have nothing to back this up with. I see plenty of people running VIA's 24/7 for years in ponds and aquariums (that is what they are made for!) and even PC's. Reliability is in the hands of the installer. Most problems I see are user caused.

Jon

Also I might go with the Swiftech MCP600 (I like the 12V), Little Giant 2-MDQX-SC, or just use my HydroThruster 500.

In any case is will be a cold day in hell when I consider buying a Danner. Not worth what you get IMO. Would rather spend $20 more for a much better pump or $20 less for just a good of a pump.

Also note this system will require at least 2 pumps. One for the CPU blocks and one for the 3 NB and 1 GPU block.

JFettig · 11-04-2003, 07:58 PM

What are you basing your asumptions on?

Jon

jaydee · 11-04-2003, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFettig
What are you basing your asumptions on?

Jon

What assumptions?

jaydee · 11-04-2003, 09:26 PM

Danner Mag Drive 5:
500GPH @ 0'
310GPH @ 4'
45watts
--------------
$42.95+shipping

VIA2600
740GPH @ 0'
310GPH @ 4'
46watts
--------------
$36.99 ($23.99 on sale)+Shipping

Little Giant 2-MDQ-SC:
510GPH @ 1'
410GPH @ 6'
96watt
--------------
$81.99+shipping

The Little Giant is what I should use. It is designed for high pressure. It is also designed to minimize heat transfer into the water unlike the Danner or the VIA which easily makes up for the extra watts burned. Also extreamly reliable. I got a month to ponder this.

JFettig · 11-05-2003, 04:29 PM

btw, the danner #3 is the prime pump, same exact performance as the #5 where we use it with 10 less watts and cheaper. Just setting that strait.

35watts, $45 SHIPPED at marinedepot.com

Jon

jaydee · 11-05-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFettig
btw, the danner #3 is the prime pump, same exact performance as the #5 where we use it with 10 less watts and cheaper. Just setting that strait.

35watts, $45 SHIPPED at marinedepot.com

Jon

At 0-15LPM they run about the same if I remember correctly. After 15LPM the Mag 5 gets better. I am going with the Little Giant.

Non of these is going to work. I will need more power.

winewood · 11-05-2003, 07:10 PM

small question:

If you can't use a normal pump and get good numbers, how are you going to expect the market to recieve this if you were to sell it? I was just wondering because I thought I read somewhere you were consdering it. It seems that you must consider that eventually the efficency of the design or block must overcome the need for firefighter flow and pressure... just wondering man.

jaydee · 11-05-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winewood
small question:

If you can't use a normal pump and get good numbers, how are you going to expect the market to recieve this if you were to sell it? I was just wondering because I thought I read somewhere you were consdering it. It seems that you must consider that eventually the efficency of the design or block must overcome the need for firefighter flow and pressure... just wondering man.

I am putting 3 of these in ONE loop plus 2 rads and about 10ft of tubing. Note the project I mentioned I am making these for. Also no plans to sell them.

Myten · 11-07-2003, 08:13 AM

this will perform better than the squares.
Diamond matrix

And it wont be hard to machine.

jaydee · 11-07-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Myten
this will perform better than the squares.
Diamond matrix
And it wont be hard to machine.

We are going over this in another thread http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...threadid=8276. This was ment to be a chipset/GPU cooler. The design has significantly changed due to size restrictions.

jaydee · 11-09-2003, 12:54 PM

I just did a rough flow test.

This is a 200gph submersible pump with unknown other factory specs.

Pump alone at 1ft: 1 gallon in 16 seconds.

Pump with KingPin: 1gallon in 32 seconds.

Note this is the bucket test. Done it 5 times and averaged the results.

Next I will test the Maze 4 and my Lemon Block Cu.

jaydee · 11-09-2003, 01:15 PM

Lemon Block Cu: 24 seconds per gallon.

Maze 4: 29 seconds per gallon.

KingPin: 32 seconds per gallon.

jaydee · 11-14-2003, 12:57 PM

Tomorrow I should have the test bench setup well enough to give me a rough idea how well this block will work. I will run this block, the Maze 4, and my Lemon Block Cu and see what happens. I expect the lemon Block Cu to outperform both and even expect the Maze 4 to beat out the King Pin. Just have to pick up a couple hose clamps and the test bench will be operational.

jaydee · 11-16-2003, 03:59 PM

This is what I have so far on my test bench.

I still havn't got all the probes wired up and in place but I do have the DMM taking the core temp under the CPU with the socket mod. I also have a probe I will drop down the filler for now to take water temp.

I am not going to get to technical with this bench. Just using ot to test my own blocks.

The block is now running a TBred A core 1700+ @1800mhz 1.8V. Been running for an hour now and waiting for equilibrium to set in. Not going to do a hard core test. I will watch it for a few hours and take some numbers then up the Vcore and MHZ and run it for another hour or so.

That will give me a "good enough" idea of it's performance. I then will drop the Maze 4 on and do a rough comparison.

Blackeagle · 11-19-2003, 04:06 PM

I'm wondering Jaydee if you used the roughing end mill on the Kingpin?

The irreguler surface of the pins done with a roughing mill would tend to reduce flow, but would also offer more surface for better cooling.

Be interested in seeing the outcome regardless. And while your test bench isn't all you'd want for doing block testing to post reviews with, it's still better than what the vast majority are useing that ARE posting review articles now on the web! And it'll give you a start on doing comparison testing. That experiance may help you choose further improvements for your test bench.

Luck with the testing.

jaydee · 11-19-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackeagle
I'm wondering Jaydee if you used the roughing end mill on the Kingpin?

The irreguler surface of the pins done with a roughing mill would tend to reduce flow, but would also offer more surface for better cooling.

Be interested in seeing the outcome regardless. And while your test bench isn't all you'd want for doing block testing to post reviews with, it's still better than what the vast majority are useing that ARE posting review articles now on the web! And it'll give you a start on doing comparison testing. That experiance may help you choose further improvements for your test bench.

Luck with the testing.

I can't find one small enough. Everywhere I looked the smallest one is 1/4". I seen a couple 1/8" but they don't have the right edges on them. I am still looking though.

My test bench failed me last night. One of the O-rings in the impellor housing on the pump decided to leak. Lost half the coolant (50/50 water anti freeze) all over the table top and the computer was shut off. Hopefully the overheat protection worked and shut it off. I didn't have enough time to check into this morning before I went to work. If it isn't fixable then I am down and out for a while. Don't have the cash right now to buy a new pump capable of using for testing. Will have to wait untill after New Years. If nothing else though this will give me time to get my thermal probes sorted out and calibrated. I spent the last 3 days testing that block and got no solid temps. I think the TC on the DMM might be wacked.

Lot of work to do...

Blackeagle · 11-19-2003, 04:40 PM

Sorry to hear about the pump Jaydee, perhaps you can replace the seal?

Glad it didn't cause damage to other parts of your set up when it went out like that.

jaydee · 11-19-2003, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackeagle
Sorry to hear about the pump Jaydee, perhaps you can replace the seal?

Glad it didn't cause damage to other parts of your set up when it went out like that.

I have a disturbing feeling the housing is cracked. The pump is not that old and the o-rings should be fine. I just don;t see why it would leak...

I designed the test bench to keep the coolant off the white carpet if it ever sprung a leak and it succeded! Not a drop made to the carpet. Hopfully everything is in tact. I didn't have time to look it over this morning. First thing on my to do list when I get home.

satanicoo · 11-19-2003, 05:33 PM

Continue the good work.
Finally we may see some more serious WB testing.
I missed that.

jaydee · 11-19-2003, 08:41 PM

Found 2 cracks, one is the problem. A freaking crack right in the O-ring groove. Second one is at the inlet but but it isn't leaking. Now to figure out WHY it cracked....

Bah... Hopefully the ISP Weldon #4 will fix it...

jaydee · 11-20-2003, 12:22 AM

Well after a little ISP Weld On #4 it seems to be ok. Been running full speed for a couple hours now.

Took my TC out from under the CPU and took my indoor/outdoor probe and unslodered the thermistor from inside the housing and attached a set of wires to it and soldered the thermistor to those wires so now both the probes are able to be calibrated. So now I am calibrating them and as I suspected they arte all messed up. So I am going to try the joy stick mod. I should have enough thermisters laying around and plenty of old busted joysticks.

http://www.benchtest.com/gp_Temp.html

freeloadingbum · 11-21-2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

jadee 116: The Little Giant is what I should use. It is designed for high pressure. It is also designed to minimize heat transfer into the water unlike the Danner or the VIA which easily makes up for the extra watts burned. Also extreamly reliable. I got a month to ponder this.

What can a pump manufacturer do to minimize the heat from transfering into the water?

jaydee · 11-21-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeloadingbum
What can a pump manufacturer do to minimize the heat from transfering into the water?

Make the impellor and the housing not metal and make it not attached to the steel shaft. Study some pumps it is pretty basic. The Danner and VIA's and similar are all compacted together with the impellor directly on the shaft. Pumps like the Little Giant previously mentioned and my HydroThruster500 have true mag drive impellors. That means the impellor is NOT attached to the shaft of the pump. The housing is plastic and moved away from the pump motor so the heat doesn't transfer to the water as well. Iwaki is another good one as they take extra efforts to keep the heat out of the water. it is very important in some aquariums to keep as much heat out of the water as possible for some of the more touchy fish.

freeloadingbum · 11-22-2003, 12:16 AM

As I understand it, only a small percentage of heat is given off at the motor end (5%). What you described should make very little difference to the total amount of heat being put into the water. Maybe 1% at best. This would be nowhere near enough to compensate for the different wattages between the little giant and the two smaller pumps. It's because of the saltwater enviroment that the pump was designed for that the propeller was as you described . Heat had nothing to do with it.

Pelayo_Style · 11-22-2003, 12:45 AM

where can one purchase one of these little giants ???

11-05-2003, 07:10 PM	#57
winewood Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: in my chair Posts: 574	small question: If you can't use a normal pump and get good numbers, how are you going to expect the market to recieve this if you were to sell it? I was just wondering because I thought I read somewhere you were consdering it. It seems that you must consider that eventually the efficency of the design or block must overcome the need for firefighter flow and pressure... just wondering man. __________________ -winewood-

11-22-2003, 12:45 AM	#75
Pelayo_Style Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 10	where can one purchase one of these little giants ??? __________________ Current System: Abit NF7-S v1.2 XP2100 @ 2.4MHz (225x11) Kingston HyperX PC3000 bh-5 chips 2x256MB (11-3-2-2) MSI GeForce4 Ti4200 (301,621) 2 x WD 36GB Raptor RAID 0 16k/16k stripe/cluster Lite On 48x24x48x16 CDRW/DVD WindowsXP Water Cooling Stuff: DangerDen RBX (#2 nozzle) Dtek Heatercore w/shroud Hydor L30 Tygon 1/2" 2x120mm ADC aluminum fans

11-04-2003, 07:58 PM	#52
JFettig Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Willmar MN/Fargo ND Posts: 504	What are you basing your asumptions on? Jon

11-04-2003, 09:26 PM	#54
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Danner Mag Drive 5: 500GPH @ 0' 310GPH @ 4' 45watts -------------- $42.95+shipping VIA2600 740GPH @ 0' 310GPH @ 4' 46watts -------------- $36.99 ($23.99 on sale)+Shipping Little Giant 2-MDQ-SC: 510GPH @ 1' 410GPH @ 6' 96watt -------------- $81.99+shipping The Little Giant is what I should use. It is designed for high pressure. It is also designed to minimize heat transfer into the water unlike the Danner or the VIA which easily makes up for the extra watts burned. Also extreamly reliable. I got a month to ponder this.

11-05-2003, 04:29 PM	#55
JFettig Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Willmar MN/Fargo ND Posts: 504	btw, the danner #3 is the prime pump, same exact performance as the #5 where we use it with 10 less watts and cheaper. Just setting that strait. 35watts, $45 SHIPPED at marinedepot.com Jon

11-09-2003, 12:54 PM	#61
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I just did a rough flow test. This is a 200gph submersible pump with unknown other factory specs. Pump alone at 1ft: 1 gallon in 16 seconds. Pump with KingPin: 1gallon in 32 seconds. Note this is the bucket test. Done it 5 times and averaged the results. Next I will test the Maze 4 and my Lemon Block Cu.

11-09-2003, 01:15 PM	#62
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Lemon Block Cu: 24 seconds per gallon. Maze 4: 29 seconds per gallon. KingPin: 32 seconds per gallon.

11-14-2003, 12:57 PM	#63
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Tomorrow I should have the test bench setup well enough to give me a rough idea how well this block will work. I will run this block, the Maze 4, and my Lemon Block Cu and see what happens. I expect the lemon Block Cu to outperform both and even expect the Maze 4 to beat out the King Pin. Just have to pick up a couple hose clamps and the test bench will be operational.

11-16-2003, 03:59 PM	#64
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	This is what I have so far on my test bench. I still havn't got all the probes wired up and in place but I do have the DMM taking the core temp under the CPU with the socket mod. I also have a probe I will drop down the filler for now to take water temp. I am not going to get to technical with this bench. Just using ot to test my own blocks. The block is now running a TBred A core 1700+ @1800mhz 1.8V. Been running for an hour now and waiting for equilibrium to set in. Not going to do a hard core test. I will watch it for a few hours and take some numbers then up the Vcore and MHZ and run it for another hour or so. That will give me a "good enough" idea of it's performance. I then will drop the Maze 4 on and do a rough comparison.

11-19-2003, 04:06 PM	#65
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	I'm wondering Jaydee if you used the roughing end mill on the Kingpin? The irreguler surface of the pins done with a roughing mill would tend to reduce flow, but would also offer more surface for better cooling. Be interested in seeing the outcome regardless. And while your test bench isn't all you'd want for doing block testing to post reviews with, it's still better than what the vast majority are useing that ARE posting review articles now on the web! And it'll give you a start on doing comparison testing. That experiance may help you choose further improvements for your test bench. Luck with the testing.

11-19-2003, 04:40 PM	#67
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Sorry to hear about the pump Jaydee, perhaps you can replace the seal? Glad it didn't cause damage to other parts of your set up when it went out like that.

11-19-2003, 05:33 PM	#69
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	Continue the good work. Finally we may see some more serious WB testing. I missed that.

11-19-2003, 08:41 PM	#70
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Found 2 cracks, one is the problem. A freaking crack right in the O-ring groove. Second one is at the inlet but but it isn't leaking. Now to figure out WHY it cracked.... Bah... Hopefully the ISP Weldon #4 will fix it...

11-20-2003, 12:22 AM	#71
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Well after a little ISP Weld On #4 it seems to be ok. Been running full speed for a couple hours now. Took my TC out from under the CPU and took my indoor/outdoor probe and unslodered the thermistor from inside the housing and attached a set of wires to it and soldered the thermistor to those wires so now both the probes are able to be calibrated. So now I am calibrating them and as I suspected they arte all messed up. So I am going to try the joy stick mod. I should have enough thermisters laying around and plenty of old busted joysticks. http://www.benchtest.com/gp_Temp.html

11-22-2003, 12:16 AM	#74
freeloadingbum Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: winnipeg Posts: 129	As I understand it, only a small percentage of heat is given off at the motor end (5%). What you described should make very little difference to the total amount of heat being put into the water. Maybe 1% at best. This would be nowhere near enough to compensate for the different wattages between the little giant and the two smaller pumps. It's because of the saltwater enviroment that the pump was designed for that the propeller was as you described . Heat had nothing to do with it.

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